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Drawn on by Missouri State Patrolman

FallonJeeper

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
576
Location
Fallon, NV
I agree. Law enforcement doesn't automatically deserve more respect than anybody else, just because they went to the academy and wear a badge, even though they DEMAND it.

I am respectful of every body equally, unless you've earned more respect. We all start out on a level playing field. You show me respect, that respect will be returned. You draw a weapon on me while I'm legally going on about my business, you will lose some of that respect.
 

Logan 5

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
696
Location
Utah
I'm nosy. What is USMCBess's father's opinion on this matter? And it looks like USMCBess isn't commenting after post# 12, and this is post # 63....
 

zekester

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
664
Location
Uvalde, Texas
I'm nosy. What is USMCBess's father's opinion on this matter? And it looks like USMCBess isn't commenting after post# 12, and this is post # 63....

He has dropped of the radar, along with quite a few on the MO thread...JMHO..This was a crazy year with politics, alot of backdoor dealing and promises not kept...alot of the guys just don't want to deal with the issues...but knowing BESS...he'll be back...just keep an eye on YOU TUBE!
 

moonie

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
251
Location
High Point NC
You guys sound like the old CC vs OC crowd, I'm rather ashamed of that. He did nothing wrong that justified how he was treated. Was he baiting them? Sure, ok, I'll admit that, but so what. It is the officers fault that they took the bait. Sure, they need to investigate, but investigate what? There was no RAS for any of it. MWAG? Sure, man with a gun, me to. Would I walk up and down the highway waiting for someone to take the bait? No, but he was fully within his rights to do so if he wanted. The goal is to educate the officers and obviously they do need some education.
 

lincomores

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2010
Messages
76
Location
Eastern Missouri
If walking down the street OC'ing in a State where it's legal is 'baiting' then there are many of us on here that so-called Bait LEO's every day we walk out the door into society.

As I've said...some sense of "baiting" is a natural by-product of OC.
That is exactly why most are armed with audio/video devices.
I'm not suggesting that protecting yourself via audio/video is wrong and neither am I saying don't OC, but rather that there is a level of expectation (in some, to their own shame, "anticipation") of an encounter while OCing. You know that before you ever walk out the door.

"Any" reaction by the citizenry or LE, positive or negative, should not come as any surprise.
 
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REALteach4u

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
428
Location
Spfld, Mo.
Bess, not cool man. Way not cool. You're timing was absolutely horrible and this particular thread is making you look like an attention hound which is unacceptable at far too many levels....it leads you into baiting as illustrated by Zekester.

Zekester, the OC denial law was and is unconstitutional. It needs someone with the pockets and the gall to drag it into court and illustrate it as an unconstitutional law then and even now. It's a clear and egregious violation of 2A. Clearly our politicians and the MOAG are not willing to address the matter in the realm in which it needs to be dealt with. That fight IS NOT over, not by a long shot!

Since when is simply carrying a firearm in Missouri probable cause for a stop? So the cop in the video thinks that if you're carrying a firearm obviously you may have committed a crime. Why do we feel the need to video tape you? If you have to ask that question then you had better look on your dash for that little camera.

Um, did anyone else notice something very important here? MOHP was a black cop. If we're to believe that our LEOs are outright racist based on stop statistics, as is often claimed, then this is an outright racially based stop on a white male. (not being serious folks, just pointing out how stupid such accusations actually are)

Here's the important part of the stop. The MOHP LEO had NO reason or cause to deploy a shotgun, let alone point it at Bess. Such action is an unlawful presentation/use of deadly force and should be treated as punishable under criminal law just as if that LEO was the average civilian. I hope Bess filed the complaint with the City, the MOHP, and the MOAG because this kind of egregious maltreatment of the citizenry MUST not be tolerated any longer. This action makes that MOHP no different than former Canton, Ohion officer Daniel Harless. It just tail spins from there.
 
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jad316

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
105
Location
Imperial, Missouri.
I'm sorry I really feel like this is baiting.....legal or not just plain stupid....It seems like he actually loves being in power "usmcbess" just my 2-cents. From the video its sounded to me like he was daring them to detain him. Just being polite goes along way and then just maybe you can educate the LEO. I would like to think if you treat an officer with respect they will treat you with respect. We can agree to disagree but respect their job.

On a side not anymore details on SB680?
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Unless there is better (or different) video I did not see any shotgun being pointed....but my monitor (my eyes) ain't that good anymore. Good luck on the getting a charge of 'unlawful presentation/use of deadly force'.
Such action is an unlawful presentation/use of deadly force and should be treated as punishable under criminal law just as if that LEO was the average civilian.
Good luck with that.
 

ManInBlack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
1,551
Location
SW Idaho
I'm sorry I really feel like this is baiting.....legal or not just plain stupid....

The great thing about America is that, so long as a behavior is legal, or opinion on whether or not it is a good idea means jack *hit.

It seems like he actually loves being in power "usmcbess" just my 2-cents.

At what point was he in power, or at what point did he try to make that happen?

From the video its sounded to me like he was daring them to detain him. Just being polite goes along way and then just maybe you can educate the LEO.

Those who are paid to enforce the laws should not have to be educated on the laws by the citizens. If I have broken no laws, and someone decides to forcibly stop me, politeness is the last thing he should expect to get from me, whether or not he wears shiny, government-issued costume jewelry on his chest.

I would like to think if you treat an officer with respect they will treat you with respect.

I'd like a Corvette, a Barrett .50, and a hot girl on my arm. Like my dad always said, "Wish in one hand, and *hit in the other one, and see which one fills up first."

We can agree to disagree but respect their job.

Why would anyone respect a job? There are very few things in the world deserving of my respect, and titles are not one of them.

Remember, just like any other government employee, police officers make an economic calculation in which they decide that government salary and benefits, extorted from the taxpayers, are worth any [negligible] risks they assume. Postal delivery drivers have a slightly higher-than-average risk of dying in motor vehicle incidents, compared to the general public.

Keep in mind that police officers don't even make the top 10 list of occupational mortality. The pizza boy who brings you dinner tonight has a higher likelihood of dying in the line of duty than any cop. Not only that, but he has a real job, producing a useful good or service that others desire to voluntarily purchase.

There is no draft for cops; if one of them can't perform his job while respecting the rights and lawful behavior of each and every citizen he encounters, without being too "scaaaaaaaaared," he should find more suitable work in the productive sector.
 
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Logan 5

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
696
Location
Utah
I think that USMCBess should be here answering our questions.... :question:
 

UtahRSO

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Messages
146
Location
Lehi, Utah, USA
I think that USMCBess should be here answering our questions.... :question:

Why? Bess did what he did. We saw the video. He said too much, if you ask me, but if he was legally carrying (and he apparently was) what questions should he answer?

Officer Horn (Horne?) told him what he was doing was legal. And the officer's explanation of what the 5th Amendment means was so far off-base as to be absolutely stupid. And telling him because he was carrying, he might take it in his head to start shooting, applies just as much to the cops who were also carrying. Say what you will about the reason Bess was walking and carrying where he was, the stop by the officers was criminal.
 

bowb

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
58
Location
Idaho
I just watched parts of the video and the question I have is at 5:03 it was asked "Am I being detained?"
Answer from Horne: "No, but...."

Not ever having been in this situation, would this not have provided the necessary out that was not taken advantage of?

Somewhere along the line this non-detainment turned into one.
 

chakragod

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
100
Location
St. Joseph, MO
Wow these officers...anyway...

I agree with most of the others in that you shouldn't have stood there arguing with them. One of the main reasons being, if they had arrested you, you gave them way too much info and ammo on you for a trial. Always remember, "Can and will be used AGAINST you, in a court of law."

Don't

Talk

To

Police.
 

Logan 5

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
696
Location
Utah
I just watched parts of the video and the question I have is at 5:03 it was asked "Am I being detained?"
Answer from Horne: "No, but...."

Not ever having been in this situation, would this not have provided the necessary out that was not taken advantage of?

Somewhere along the line this non-detainment turned into one.

When a person is detained for a period longer than considered reasonable to determine if a crime has been committed, it then becomes an arrest. One does not need to be cuffed or read his lack of rights in order to be arrested. If the person is under the orders of law enforcement during the detainment, it can be considered an arrest.

Considering what you said, at 5:03 when he asked if he was being detained and Horne said "no, but....", myself I would have said "No buts. Have a nice day!" and walk off. If a cop says you are not being detained, then you are not under arrest. When he says "no, but..." there are no buts. It's yes or no.
 
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REALteach4u

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
428
Location
Spfld, Mo.
Hey Bess, someone wise gave me some valuable advice in Georgia back in 02/03. Carry a copy of the laws with you to cover yourself. Being from out of State at the time it was important and priceless advice.

So I have a question. Do you practice this when you take "the walk"? It doesn't mean that we as responsible carriers should challenge those stopping us, what it does mean is that we're prepared to provide on-the-spot re-education of our LEOs....with courtesy and kindness. Any resistance on the part of the LEOs should receive an immediate shut-up on our part in that we shut our mouths since they are obviously unreceptive.

With the municipalities being allowed to do their own thing it might be a valuable tool.
 

REALteach4u

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
428
Location
Spfld, Mo.
There is a vast difference between these people, the way that they were activists an the way this guy is.

That is why I said, "I have no idea what this has to do with what I said."

I stated essentially that if you are going to be this kind of activist than you better be able to present you and your cause in a better way than this guy.

He made the entire movement look bad with all his yammering on, stammering and overall sounding like a fool.

There are some guys who represent us in this way that I can respect. Why? Because they represent their cause well. They are well spoken and know what they are talking about. This guy is not one of them.

Calm, cool, collected re-education of our LEOs, administrators, and lawmakers is the only approach. There is a HUGE difference between someone raising awareness and a radical activist. The person raising awareness tends to conduct their normal daily business with the intent of raising awareness if/when asked. The radical activist will intentionally create situations with the sole purpose of getting unnecessary attention and media exposure.

I see no normal daily activity, unless this was actually the daily activity of the indivudal (which raises concern). What I do see is a radical activist setting out with the intent to draw attention and media exposure. Does anyone recall just such an activist in our not-so-distant history? Here's a hint, he wrote the "I have a dream" speech and went to jail for his beliefs.

Sometimes that's exactly what it is going to take and we simply cannot judge those who take actions we are not willing to take ourselves. That does not mean we have to support those actions when the timing is incorrect or if the intent is somehow misplaced or misguided in any way. Of course, flying solo as a radical activist simply is not a wise approach. Team tactics folks, team tactics...security and survival in numbers!
 
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Superlite27

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
1,277
Location
God's Country, Missouri
^^^ This. +1

I normally carry everyday with the intention to normalize the open carry of firearms by normal people so that other normal people will feel normal in the presence of someone carrying a firearm.

I call this "activism" because I am proactively seeking public interaction to establish dialogue on the subject. Conveying the proper message is my goal.

I don't need a fireworks show as I wear my underwear on my head waving a neon sign powered by a backpack generator reading "LOOK AT ME!" as I run through traffic and throw wads of toilet paper at passing motorists.

Some folks cannot wrap their small minds around the simple concept of "activism" meaning "taking an active role" (i.e. being proactive) instead of sitting on the couch making wishes. Some folks cannot understand activism unless it includes their preconceived notion that involves sledgehammers and explosives. If something isn't blowing up and sirens aren't involved, it must not be activism.

What a shame. They've let their preconceived notion of what being an activist is completely destroy the goal they wish to acheive. They become so fixated on garnering attention for the cause that the attention becomes the goal and the not the message. The message becomes so diluted as to be insignificant. They become the antithesis of their own goal.

Kind of like the activist so disgusted that nobody is paying attention to his message of peace and non-violence that he blows up a pre-school full of kids so folks will take notice.

Yup. That'll get their attention. I'm an activist, see? I've got a sledgehammer! That's what activists do: GET NOTICED!

It seems the message: Normal people normally carrying firearms has become insignificant. LOOK AT ME! HEAR MY MESSAGE! PAY ATTENTION! has become the goal.

How misguided.
 
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jad316

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
105
Location
Imperial, Missouri.
So I know I'm going to get grief for saying this but I just think Bess loves the attention. I mean the officer was correct why park your car and walk away unless your wanting to be confrontational. It's one thing to get out of your car pump gas and have a officer approach you but to walk down the hwy is another. What good does this do for the cause? Weather its your god giving right or not I don't think that's the best and smartest way to do this. If he's a street preacher then stand on the corner and preach. It seems like the past yr or so Bess has been in the paper or on this forum with nothing but bad judgement calls. I'm afraid this will bite each and everyone of us at the end.
 

Motofixxer

Regular Member
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
965
Location
Somewhere over the Rainbow
DETAIN: To retain as the possession of personalty. First Nat. Bank v. Yocom, 96 Or. 438, 189 P. 220, 221. To arrest, to check, to delay, to hinder, to hold, or keep in custody, to retard, to re strain from proceeding, to stay, to stop. People v. Smith, 17 Cal.App.2d 468, 62 P.2d 436, 438. (Blacks Law 4th Ed, Pg 535)

ARREST: To deprive a person of his liberty by legal authority. Taking, under real or assumed authority, custody of another for the purpose of holding or detaining him to answer a criminal charge or civil demand. Ex parte Sherwood, 29 Tex.App. 334, 15 S.W. 812. Physical seizure of person by arresting officer or submission to officer's authority and control is necessary to constitute an "arrest." Thompson v. Boston Pub. Co., 285 Mass. 344, 189 N.E. 210, 213. It is a restraints however slight, on another's liberty to come and go. Turney v. Rhodes, 42 Ga.App. 104, 155 S.E. 112. It is the taking, seizing or detaining the person of another, touching or putting hands upon him in the execution of process, or any act indicating an intention to arrest. U. S. v. Benner, Bald. 234, 239, Fed.Cas.No.14,568; State v. District Court of Eighth Judicial Dist. in and for Cascade County, 70 Mont. 378, 225 P. 1000, 1001; Hoppes v. State, 105 P.2d 433, 439, 70 Okl.Cr. 179.(Blacks Law 4th Ed, Pg 140)

We conclude that a person has been "seized" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment only if, in view of all of the circumstances surrounding the incident, a reasonable person would have believed that he was not free to leave. Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure, even where the person did not attempt to leave, would be the threatening presence of several officers, the display of a weapon by an officer, some physical touching of the person of the citizen, or the use of language or tone of voice indicating that compliance with the officer's request might be compelled.
US v. Mendenhall

The Third Circuit found that an individual’s lawful possession of a firearm in a crowded place did not justify a search or seizure.
United States v. Ubiles, 224 F.3d 213 (3rd Cir. 2000)

"Mr. St. John’s lawful possession of a loaded firearm in a crowded place could not, by itself, create a reasonable suspicion sufficient to justify an investigatory detention."
St. John v. McColley

"The mere presence of firearms does not create exigent circumstances."
State v. Kiekhefer, 212 Wis. 2d 460, 569 N.W.2d 316 (Ct. App. 1997), 96-2052.
[WI Court of Appeals]



Detentions and Arrests, info and definitions by cowboyridn

Detention descriptions, consensual and when to walk away. An informational read

3 Different levels of Police/Citizen encounters Explained

4th and 5th Amendment Resources by user Citizen

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1027378.html
The only fact that saves the officer's stop of DeBerry, in my opinion, is the fact that it is unlawful in Illinois to carry a concealed weapon.
The tipster informed the police that DeBerry was armed, and it appears from the facts before us that the weapon was not in plain view.
I do not agree that this case would necessarily come out the same way if Illinois law, like the law of many states, authorized the carrying of concealed weapons.
At that point, the entire content of the anonymous tip would be a physical description of the individual, his location, and an allegation that he was carrying something lawful (a cellular telephone? a beeper? a firearm?).
This kind of nonincriminatory allegation, in my view, would not be enough to justify the kind of investigatory stop that took place here.

On September 8, 2009, Federal District Judge Bruce D. Black, issued an order previously examined here, that concluded as a matter of law that Alamogordo police officiers violated Matthew St. John's constitutional rights under the Fourth Amendment because they seized and disarmed him even though there was not "any reason to believe that a crime was afoot." Judge Black's opinion is consistent with numerous high state and federal appellate court rulings, including the United States Supreme Court, holding that there is no firearms exception to the Fourth Amendment. St. John v. McColley, et al., --- F.Supp.2d ----, 2009 WL 2949302 (D.N.M. 2009)


This section authorizes officers to demand identification only when a person is suspected of committing a crime, but does not govern the lawfulness of requests for identification in other circumstances. State v. Griffith, 2000 WI 72, 236 Wis. 2d 48, 613 N.W.2d 72, 98-0931.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1226046509410140751&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr
52 F.3d 194 UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. Coye Denise GREEN, Defendant-Appellant. No. 94-1675. United States Court of App

Regalado v. State, 25 So. 3d 600 - Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 4th Dist. 2009
"Despite the obvious potential danger to officers and the public by a person in possession of a concealed gun in a crowd, this is not illegal in Florida unless the person does not have a concealed weapons permit, a fact that an officer cannot glean by mere observation. Based upon our understanding of both Florida and United States Supreme Court precedent, stopping a person solely on the ground that the individual possesses a gun violates the Fourth Amendment."


In evaluating the validity of investigatory stops, we must consider the "totality of the circumstances--the whole picture." United States v. Sokolow, 490 U.S. 1, 8, 109 S.Ct. 1581, 1585, 104 L.Ed.2d 1 (1989) (quoting United States v. Cortez, 449 U.S. 411, 417, 101 S.Ct. 690, 695, 66 L.Ed.2d 621 (1981)). Reasonable suspicion must derive from more than an "inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or 'hunch.' " Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 27, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 1883, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968). Moreover, "[c]onduct typical of a broad category of innocent people provides a weak basis for suspicion." United States v. Weaver, 966 F.2d 391, 394 (8th Cir.) (quoting United States v. Crawford, 891 F.2d 680, 681 (8th Cir.1989)), cert. denied, --- U.S. ----, 113 S.Ct. 829, 121 L.Ed.2d 699 (1992).

A number of the factors relied upon by Carrill can be characterized as "conduct typical of a broad category of innocent people." Weaver, 966 F.2d at 394. We reject the notion that Green's travelling alone, carrying a small bag, wearing new and baggy clothes, and failing to make eye contact with Carrill, are in any way indicative of criminal activity. Thus, these factors cannot play a role in assessing the validity of the investigatory stop.

Under Florida v. J.L., an anonymous tip giving rise to reasonable suspicion must bear indicia of reliability. That the tipster's anonymity is placed at risk indicates that the informant is genuinely concerned and not a fallacious prankster. Corroborated aspects of the tip also lend credibility; the corroborated actions of the suspect need be inherently criminal in and of themselves., 2001 WI 21, 241 Wis. 2d 631, 623 N.W.2d 106, 96-1821. State v. Williams

An anonymous tip is not RAS

ID'ing yourself discussion
 
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