Drawn on by Missouri State Patrolman

[adam_SDOCsiouxfalls]

Are you serious?

Again like everyone else is saying and I agree, best thing is for him not to post anything till he speaks with a lawyer, also "IF" it comes to light that he was within the law and was not posing a threat(meaning pointing the weapon at the cop or reaching for it) then the officer was way out of line and this guy should press charges against the officer for aggravated assault. But Im sure it would prob. be a long hard battle in court.

 

[Gil223]

Interesting video of your confrontation with three(?) LEAs. You were apparently attempting to prove a point, as were the officers. Yours was "OC is legal in Missouri", and theirs was "When we get MWAG calls the public expects us to respond, and we are obligated to investigate." The "introduction" to the video (videoing your walk along a busy highway, for no apparent reason) left me with the impression that you were hoping for an interaction with LE, which you got. The shotgun wielding HP trooper, was a bit over the top, but keep in mind that there have been 5 LEO's killed in MO this year.

Your reluctance to provide the officers with your name and age was less than beneficial for you. What it did was prolong the encounter unnecessarily. (They didn't ask to see ID, which was good since there's no law requiring us to provide ID upon request, or to even carry ID on our person, although 99% of adults do have ID on us all the time.) The officers were respectful, and they would have been remiss in their duty had they not asked for your name and what you were doing. "John Doe, and I'm taking a walk while legally armed" probably would have satisfied their need to check wants and warrants. You are not responsible for others allowing themselves to become upset at the sight of a legally armed citizen, but the officers can always trot out that chickens**t "disturbing the peace" charge, and (in some states) "obstructing a police investigation". Their "city ordinance" doesn't trump 2A, but, should they decide to push the issue, it can make you a bit uncomfortable for awhile.

All-in-all, I think (yes, I do that sometimes) you mostly did what was correct once the officers engaged you. On the other hand, I think you intentionally brought that engagement upon yourself, and could have shortened its duration significantly without the repeated "Am I being detained" and 2A mantras. Pax...

 

[FireStar M40]

Now That You Commented..

Without commenting.....No comment!

Because of your No comment, comment .. I have no other alternative but to Not comment on your comment! :uhoh:

FireStar M40

 

[jdholmes]

Wow...officer Horne is a moron, but I think you may be as well.

And it is clear you were baiting which IMO doesn't help the OC cause. Especially when the baiter presents themselves as poorly as seen on your video.

This in no way is meant to justify the officers actions.

Your daddy clearly wasn't a fan of your choice...that was pretty funny.

 

[twoskinsonemanns]

) The officers were respectful, and they would have been remiss in their duty had they not asked for your name and what you were doing. "John Doe, and I'm taking a walk while legally armed" probably would have satisfied their need to check wants and warrants.

Respectfully I would like to point out that a big problem with this type of thinking is that an OCing LAC SHOULD be stopped and checked for warrants with out any reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

It seems like you are implying that OCing is, in itself, just-cause for this type of search and seizure activity. It may have been baiting (to me it is completely irrelevant) but a point SHOULD be made any time this happens that there is no just-cause for stopping an individual solely for OCing, any more than it would be just-cause to stop someone because they are wearing a red bandanna, or have gang tattoos, or any thing else that is not criminal.

 

[SavageOne]

I would like to ask all those who seem to have a problem with the OP because they think he was "baiting". Do you have the same problem when the police use "bait" cars to nab car thieves? Do you have the same problem with police that "bait" criminals into drug deals? Is it just that you think someone should not offer someone the opportunity to violate the law if they are involved in a "movement"? Do you think that the movement to stop child molesters has a problem with the "baiting" done by Dateline NBC? Do you think the movements concerned with cleaning up voter registration have a problem with the "baiting" done by James O'Keefe?

Let us be clear it is only "bait" if they take it. Bess, has as just as much right to walk around trying to get police to illegally stop him(if that is what he was doing, he says it isn't and I have no reason to think otherwise, but if he was) as anyone who OC's for whatever reason they choose. The issue here is not the reason he chooses to OC, but the fact that there was an effort to stifle his rights by LE.

There is no more proof that Bess was "baiting" than the gentleman in Pittsburgh, yet many here will laud that man's financial settlement as advancing the "movement". It seems to be a double standard. What if real positive change for MO comes out of this agregeous violation of Bess's rights(perhaps from the courts, where I personally feel is the only place we will ever see real change). Will those decrying the "baiter" still poo-poo him? Let us hope that perhaps Bess may one day serve up a heaping pie of crow for all of them to eat, since it would be good for MO.

 

[SouthernBoy]

I would like to ask all those who seem to have a problem with the OP because they think he was "baiting". Do you have the same problem when the police use "bait" cars to nab car thieves? Do you have the same problem with police that "bait" criminals into drug deals? Is it just that you think someone should not offer someone the opportunity to violate the law if they are involved in a "movement"? Do you think that the movement to stop child molesters has a problem with the "baiting" done by Dateline NBC? Do you think the movements concerned with cleaning up voter registration have a problem with the "baiting" done by James O'Keefe?

Let us be clear it is only "bait" if they take it. Bess, has as just as much right to walk around trying to get police to illegally stop him(if that is what he was doing, he says it isn't and I have no reason to think otherwise, but if he was) as anyone who OC's for whatever reason they choose. The issue here is not the reason he chooses to OC, but the fact that there was an effort to stifle his rights by LE.

There is no more proof that Bess was "baiting" than the gentleman in Pittsburgh, yet many here will laud that man's financial settlement as advancing the "movement". It seems to be a double standard. What if real positive change for MO comes out of this agregeous violation of Bess's rights(perhaps from the courts, where I personally feel is the only place we will ever see real change). Will those decrying the "baiter" still poo-poo him? Let us hope that perhaps Bess may one day serve up a heaping pie of crow for all of them to eat, since it would be good for MO.

My initial reaction after watching the OP's video was that he was baiting the police and perhaps hoping for an encounter. I say this only because we see a wealth of these videos on many websites. I tend to view situations like this quite differently than those incidents where a "normal" OC'er just happens to get caught off guard and questioned/detained by an LEO(s).

But I have to admit, you make a very good point in your post here. It certainly does put the shoe on the other foot. Good job.

 

[OC for ME]

The Chief of police in Washington has a Jones for Bess. The city lawyer told the chief that a OC ban via RSMo 21.750 could not be enforced. The chief is pissed and now Bess is a target.

Bess could avoid Washington to let the dust settle, but he is a free citizen.

The cops are in the wrong here, not Bess. Bess is known to be a street preacher and one who OCs. The OC is just an excuse to turn up the heat on Bess. The cops are in the wrong.

 

[9026543]

I started a thread on this video that was originally posted on you tube in Feb 2012 but wasn't considered cop baiting. It follows the same line as the Washington incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQJ_FJ8zsQ

 

[Gil223]

Respectfully I would like to point out that a big problem with this type of thinking is that an OCing LAC SHOULD be stopped and checked for warrants with out any reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

It seems like you are implying that OCing is, in itself, just-cause for this type of search and seizure activity. It may have been baiting (to me it is completely irrelevant) but a point SHOULD be made any time this happens that there is no just-cause for stopping an individual solely for OCing, any more than it would be just-cause to stop someone because they are wearing a red bandanna, or have gang tattoos, or any thing else that is not criminal.

I implied nothing - you drew an inference. Simple OC is not just cause for contact in MO and most other states (NY and CA spring to mind as exceptions). From what I saw on the video, there was neither a search nor a seizure, simply an FI inquiry by the officers. The problem began when (ostensibly) the officers were dispatched on "several" MWAG calls from other citizens. As I said in my original post on this issue "You are not responsible for others allowing themselves to become upset at the sight of a legally armed citizen...". OC'ing is not yet so common that most people automatically accept it as a legal activity, and they will knee-jerk a 911 call out of fear for the safety of the general public. Those same "most people" are probably somewhat familiar with the wording of 2A, but fail to fully grasp our founders intent, recent court rulings, and specifically the SCOTUS ruling in Heller. It is their communal ignorance of these things that creates the problem, not the act of a LAC OC'ing.

I used the word "ostensibly" when describing the officers being "dispatched". I chose that word after having read the comments of several people who apparently have a deeper understanding of Bess's background and history. It is also possible that one of the officers recognized Bess and fabricated the "MWAG" call(s) in order to harass him. That would really be stupid inasmuch as 911 calls are automatically recorded and date/time stamped in a town of any significant size, and would then be available for verification. I knew nothing about the size of Washington MO, but two internet sources say it's either 14,000 or 23,000. Obviously somebody is guessing! (Based upon size, I would guess that the dispatch function is probably centralized at the county-level, which is what is done here in UT when there are a number of smaller towns involved. It would also explain why officers from 3 different LEAs responded.) Pax...

 

[ManInBlack]

My initial reaction after watching the OP's video was that he was baiting the police and perhaps hoping for an encounter. I say this only because we see a wealth of these videos on many websites. I tend to view situations like this quite differently than those incidents where a "normal" OC'er just happens to get caught off guard and questioned/detained by an LEO(s).

But I have to admit, you make a very good point in your post here. It certainly does put the shoe on the other foot. Good job.

Unfortunately, when a "normal OC'er" gets hemmed up, he doesn't have a recording device running, and he has no recourse for the abuse of his rights. I fail to see how that is preferable.

 

[zekester]

Not even close

You and your friends had a meeting, and a dinner....if your "mindset" was to provoke a reaction, then yes...baiting..

Bess, had a perfectly good car, parked somewhere and was walking down a 4 or six lane highway....Hey...don't get me wrong, I love to take walks, but I'll be damned if I am going to walk on a Highway for recreation! This was a clear tactic to provoke a reaction, that simple.

It was and still is legal to OC in Washington...Go about your business in a professional manner, no one cares, but to provoke the LEO's to an encounter is not what we are about.

If Bess was sitting in a resturant and just minding his own business, this would not be an issue.

Was it legal to do what Bess did?.....ABSOLUTELY!!...It is just the reasoning and motive behind it, that gives me concern.

I OC because it is my right to do so, to protect me and my family, not to get reaction from LEO's or anyone else.

 

[ManInBlack]

Was it legal to do what Bess did?.....ABSOLUTELY!!...It is just the reasoning and motive behind it, that gives me concern.

The great thing about liberty is that as long as what someone else is doing does not harm you or your property, his motivations for doing it are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS (or the government's, obviously).

 

[zekester]

The great thing about liberty is that as long as what someone else is doing does not harm you or your property, his motivations for doing it are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS (or the government's, obviously).

But why...why go out of your way to make a scene....if a scene erupts in your daily life...then deal with it...why initiate it!?

I guranetee that if I was walking down I-70 in St Charles, there would be a reaction...then I tell the cops that there is nothing wrong with my car.....Not illegal....question is why?...If I had a flat, or ran out of gas...no problem.....but walking on a Highway just to walk on a Highway...sorry...Your just provoking a reaction.

Why do that if it is already legal?

 

[OC for ME]

"You could have just strong-armed...."
"Are you trying to incite?"

Just a little hyperbole on display.

 

[OC for ME]

But why...why go out of your way to make a scene....if a scene erupts in your daily life...then deal with it...why initiate it!?

The cops could have just looked and seen a rotund younger fella walking down (up?) the road, not doing anything that appears to be illegal, stupid walking down that busy road, but not illegal, and kept on going.

 

[zekester]

"You could have just strong-armed...."
"Are you trying to incite?"

Just a little hyperbole on display.

Sorry....but it was to "INCITE".....the LEO'S that is.

 

[zekester]

The cops could have just looked and seen a rotund younger fella walking down (up?) the road, not doing anything that appears to be illegal, stupid walking down that busy road, but not illegal, and kept on going.

I agree...and the LEO's should have handled it that way!!!

MWAG from many citizens "sheeple" is going to get a reaction......can't stop it.....hell, it is their job.....If Bess had "business" being there...flat...out of gas...robbed...carjacked....cool beans with me....but to just to walk down the Highway, for the sake of walking down the Highway...sorry...not flying in my book.

Bess provoked, got his reaction and got it on YouTube....AGAIN!!!...and SB680 is going down.

To be fair, SB680 was a long shot, but this instance killed it for sure.

Of course JMHO....but OCDO is here to promote, not to provoke!!!

 

[SouthernBoy]

Unfortunately, when a "normal OC'er" gets hemmed up, he doesn't have a recording device running, and he has no recourse for the abuse of his rights. I fail to see how that is preferable.

A lot of folks who do carry and might be considered "normal" carriers (I know that term might garnish argument) also carry recording devices. My point was the fact that my initial reaction was that this fellow was on a fishing expedition. I certainly don't know this to be fact but simply based it upon what has appeared on a number of websites and I so inferred this in my previous post. I mean the gentleman no ill will and am completely unfamiliar with him and what he does.

I did see some things the LEO's did which also raise one's eyebrows as their actions did not appear to be within the scope of the law. So they did appear to be detaining the OP and acting outside of their authority from what I saw.

Just for the record, my reference to a "normal" carrier would be one who simply goes about his business in the same fashion and manner as he would whether or not he was armed. In other words, his sidearm makes no difference in his movements, actions, or demeanor.

 

[zekester]

Just for the record, my reference to a "normal" carrier would be one who simply goes about his business in the same fashion and manner as he would whether or not he was armed. In other words, his sidearm makes no difference in his movements, actions, or demeanor.

+1000

Go about your daily lives....If a situation happens, deal with it! Post it....sue them...and ask for money....but don't even go there, if you are just baiting! Which is "CLEARLY" the case in this matter. Yes...the LEO's don't have to "take the bait"...but they have to justify their existence, so therefore they will do so.

We "justify their actions" by pulling stunts like this.

I hope that most of us are not out there to "prove a point"...Yes, sometimes you have to....but if it is LEGAL already, just go about your business.

Don't walk down a fricking highway if you don't have to!!!.

Promote....Don't Provoke!!