Man shot 22 times before finally going down.

[marshaul]

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mrbiggles wrote:

marshaul wrote:

All right you two, take a breath. :lol:

I'd really like to have hawkocrat explain in a short paragraph why i need him in my life as a LEO. What is he doing that warrants so much of my money, and so many of my liberties and i could not do for myself (if i was allowed).

Hawkflyer really is quite libertarian. I think you should give him a break.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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marshaul wrote:

...SNIP

Hawkflyer really is quite libertarian. I think you should give him a break.

Thank you.
But for some the dichotomy is just to foreign a concept for them to accept. I am living proof that an absolutists view of LE may be wrong. Sort of the exception that negates the absolute. Although in my view any absolute view of anything is probably wrong. There will almost always be an exception. In this case there are a lot of exceptions, you just don't hear about them.

Regards

 

[mrbiggles]

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marshaul wrote:

mrbiggles wrote:

marshaul wrote:

All right you two, take a breath. :lol:

I'd really like to have hawkocrat explain in a short paragraph why i need him in my life as a LEO. What is he doing that warrants so much of my money, and so many of my liberties and i could not do for myself (if i was allowed).

Hawkflyer really is quite libertarian. I think you should give him a break.

ok i'll give him a break. but he seems to think its ok to demand papers from someone for being suspicious.

i wonder as a libertarian leaning person if he gives out seat belt tickets... if he enforces prohibition laws... to name a few.

 

[deepdiver]

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mrbiggles wrote:

ok i'll give him a break. but he seems to think its ok to demand papers from someone for being suspicious.

:banghead: R>C>P

 

[Hawkflyer]

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mrbiggles wrote:

marshaul wrote:

mrbiggles wrote:

marshaul wrote:

All right you two, take a breath. :lol:

I'd really like to have hawkocrat explain in a short paragraph why i need him in my life as a LEO. What is he doing that warrants so much of my money, and so many of my liberties and i could not do for myself (if i was allowed).

Hawkflyer really is quite libertarian. I think you should give him a break.

ok i'll give him a break. but he seems to think its ok to demand papers from someone for being suspicious.

I NEVER said that. You keep making these sweeping generalizations based on what you THINK is am saying, and I am only talking about this one particular incident. You know the thread topic.

What I said was that IN THIS CASEthe LEO was acting on having witnessed someone break the law right in front of him. Under those conditions he is SWORN to look into it. That is what he is paid to do. Anything else is dereliction of duty.

When he looked into it, a second violation occurred RIGHT IN HIS PRESENCE. Either the DRIVING (not parking) without headlights, or the open beer in a car that he had just seen driving on a public road, are sufficient to justify an arrest. Both are violations of the law.

But he did not arrest the guy. He asked to see his licence. If you read your state law, a LEO can ask for that if you are operating your car in his presence. The guy had just driven in from a public road, so under your PRIVILEGE to operate a motor vehicle you MUST show your drivers licence under those conditions or you can be arrested for yet another violation of the law.

The LEO was even let the guy go back to waithis car, which is actually a violation of normal procedures he is trained to follow. The guy uses that as an excuse to retrieve a firearm and start a gun fight. While it is obvious the LEO fired the last shot, he clearly did not fire the first shot.

Now you may not like the fact that the LEO did nothing wrong under the law. and he did nothing that violated that guys rights to privacy or anything else, but those are the facts. If you do not like the law to allow these things then you need to work to change the law.

I and a lot of other people here are trying to more clearly define the LEO/citizen contact triggers. We are also redefining the rights of citizens to just walk away unless under arrest. So my question to you is are you just complaining on the Internet or are you actually doing something to change things. I can tell you it does no good to shoot the messenger.

By the way I suppose I owe you a paragraph. I do a lot of things you could and would not do, that have to get done. Most of them are things you would not want to do for your self. In some cases they are things you could not pay someone else to do. All of them are things that help someone who cannot help them self.I for one do not do these things for the pay alone.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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mrbiggles wrote:

...SNIP

i wonder as a libertarian leaning person if he gives out seat belt tickets... if he enforces prohibition laws... to name a few.

Ok ... A new question. In short NO.

But that is because those are not my area.

For what it is worth, I do not believe in mandating seat belt use, any more than I am in favor of a government mandated explosive device being pointed at my face every time I get in my car. I disagree with a lot of laws, and I work to roll them back. But I also understand that people who took an oath to enforce the law, must do so. if the law is wrong then it should be changed. But still think it does no good to shoot the messenger.

 

[mrbiggles]

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you're a government shill, and the enemy of the people of the united states. you are the enemy of freedom and americanism.

you are the long arm of a tyrannical government. you are the one that will show up on people's doorsteps if they don't obey. you enforce unconstitutional laws.

you sold out freedom, liberty, and your country for a paycheck and job security... or maybe the authority you may or may not enjoy.

you've admitted to enforcing unconstitutional laws and/or having the will to do so... because "its your duty" or you "took an oath". just because its a "law" or statute doesn't make it "wrong", and you are an immoral person for enforcing these laws. what about your oath to the consitution?

the nazis around hitler had a similar excuse... they were just following orders. sounds a lot like what you are saying. if you have any moral conviction you would not enforce laws that were unconstitutional.

this is my opinion. take it or leave it. i believe you are an immoral person, i believe you are the enemy of the people of the united states, and i also believe it is you the face of government that will pay when the people have had enough.

i will also ask you this, at what point do you draw the line as to what laws you will enforce? if a tyrannical government says its ok would you enforce it?

ps: you haven't sold me on why i need you around. why you are worth anything to me. and why i should allow my money to be stolen to pay for you. and why i should allow my liberty to be squashed for you to do your "job".

 

[deepdiver]

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Well, this WAS a very interesting topic with lots of interesting aspects to discuss.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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mrbiggles wrote:

you're a government shill, SNIP...

Sorry I am not Bill Engval. But might I suggest this Website instead. I am sure you must have seen it before.



EDIT to ADD:

Your assessment is rather interesting since I specifically told you that the areas of the law you mentioned ARE NOT IN MY AREA AND I DO NOT ENFORCE THEM.

I did say I could understand a LEO sworn to enforce such laws has a duty to do so, but I never said I had taken an oath to enforce those kinds of laws, only that I understood the actions of those that had.

It occurs to me that you do not have the education to contribute to this conversation meaningfully. Your personal attack on me is an indication that you have no ideas, and therefore you are left with attacking the messenger. So I am left with my earlier assessment that you truly are ignorant, and have a serious reading and comprehension problem. Did you graduate grade school? If so how old were you?

Now you do realize that we are watching you through your computer don't you? I mean since the late 1980 they all have secret microphones and cameras inside them. We know where you are, who you are, and what you are doing when ever yo are using or are near your computer. So if you hear a helicopter at night, don't worry, they are just coming to help you.

 

[Task Force 16]

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hmmm......

I just wonder.... could mrbiggles be an anti-gunner plant that is "projecting" his own loathing of the Constitution?

 

[ODA 226]

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mrbiggles wrote:

you're a government shill, and the enemy of the people of the united states. you are the enemy of freedom and americanism.

you are the long arm of a tyrannical government. you are the one that will show up on people's doorsteps if they don't obey. you enforce unconstitutional laws.

you sold out freedom, liberty, and your country for a paycheck and job security... or maybe the authority you may or may not enjoy.

you've admitted to enforcing unconstitutional laws and/or having the will to do so... because "its your duty" or you "took an oath". just because its a "law" or statute doesn't make it "wrong", and you are an immoral person for enforcing these laws. what about your oath to the consitution?

the nazis around hitler had a similar excuse... they were just following orders. sounds a lot like what you are saying. if you have any moral conviction you would not enforce laws that were unconstitutional.

this is my opinion. take it or leave it. i believe you are an immoral person, i believe you are the enemy of the people of the united states, and i also believe it is you the face of government that will pay when the people have had enough.

i will also ask you this, at what point do you draw the line as to what laws you will enforce? if a tyrannical government says its ok would you enforce it?

ps: you haven't sold me on why i need you around. why you are worth anything to me. and why i should allow my money to be stolen to pay for you. and why i should allow my liberty to be squashed for you to do your "job".

Holy Smokes!JohnnyB! Are you back again?!!! We've really missed you! You just can't stay away, can you!?

 

[PT111]

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Task Force 16 wrote:

hmmm......

I just wonder.... could mrbiggles be an anti-gunner plant that is "projecting" his own loathing of the Constitution?

I am not sure that he is posting his actually his opinions or he is just trying to rile thing up. If they are his true thoughts then he seems to be marching to a different drummer than most people. If he is just trying to get a rise out of everyone then he is doing a good job of that. I don't think a anti-gun plant would go to these lengths.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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PT111 wrote:

Task Force 16 wrote:

hmmm......

I just wonder.... could mrbiggles be an anti-gunner plant that is "projecting" his own loathing of the Constitution?

I am not sure that he is posting his actually his opinions or he is just trying to rile thing up.SNIP...

Well it is very likely he is Posse Comitatus, or from the Sovereign Citizen Movement. These guys show up any time you start flipping rocks over in an Internet discussion.

In fact by comparison to them, I do look like a liberal. But that says a lot more about them than it does me. Perhaps if we replace the rock he will crawl back under it.

Regards

 

[mrbiggles]

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i'm not a member of any group. and i've only vaguely heard of those two you posted but i've never researched them.

you personally attacked me, calling me stupid... because i don't agree with you... saying i should be afraid of black helicopters... typical of wannabe king LEOs like yourself. as if anyone thought you would do anything but defend your huge amounts of authority. yeah we really expected different...

i think you're the one who is out of ideas. calling me stupid, saying i didn't graduate highschool... etc... you still haven't answered what job you do that so important.

if you really must know i'm a engineer and i make probably 3x your salary. and the money i make is paid to me freely and not at the barrel of a gun, people actually want my services. they aren't forced into it. the reason i hate LE and LEOs is because i'm SICK of being harassed, and sick of all the bullshit laws on the books, i'm sick of our government, and i'm sick of assholes like you who work for the government.

what area of law enforcement do you work in?

 

[mrbiggles]

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Benjamin Franklin - "It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority."


guess he was a wacko too


Dwight D. Eisenhower - "Here in America we are descended in spirit from revolutionaries and rebels -- men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine."

another wacko. right wing sovereign citizen

Frederick Douglass - "Find out just what the people will submit to and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."

right wing nut




ohh here is a good patriot that agrees with hawkocrat
[align=left]Bill Clinton - "You can't say you love your country and hate your government."
[/align]

 

[cccook]

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mrbiggles wrote:

you're a government shill, and the enemy of the people of the united states. you are the enemy of freedom and americanism.

you are the long arm of a tyrannical government. you are the one that will show up on people's doorsteps if they don't obey. you enforce unconstitutional laws.

ps: you haven't sold me on why i need you around. why you are worth anything to me. and why i should allow my money to be stolen to pay for you. and why i should allow my liberty to be squashed for you to do your "job".

Speaking for myself, I need Hawkflyeraround because like LEOs I cannot be everywhere at any given moment. Right at this very moment my daughter is 4 miles away from me, my wife is 8 miles away and my mother is 3 miles away. Clearly I need help protecting my loved ones.

While it is not a perfect solution to my dilemma, two of my loved ones are in locations with LE presence and I am grateful for whatever measure of protection that affords them. As to the third, my father would likely muster an armed appropriate response to any grave threat.

While I appreciate your zeal for constitutionally protected freedom I find it difficult to envision that a world with zero LEOs would function better. Furthermore, I see no just reason to demonize Hawkflyerfor his honorable service to his community. Clearly the brush you paint with is too broad.

 

[darthmord]

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Hawkflyer wrote:

mrbiggles wrote:

...SNIP

i read the story. and the OP.

the guy was in a parking lot at night. which was enough cause for the LEO to ask for his paperzzzzz.

allegedly he didn't have his lights on in the parking lot. ok...

SNIP...

I really don't know where you went to school, but you really should ask for your money back. the first sentence in the report reads as follows -

"Officer Peter Soulis was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off."

Now most people who can read and comprehend can see that the guy was DRIVING with his LIGHTS OFF. One presumes that since it says "...pull into the lot..." that the guys was DRIVING ON THE ROAD with his lights off.

That sir is probable cause to approach the individual and see what is going on. In fact is it enough to actually arrest the guy if the LEO wanted to be nasty.But that is not what happend because this LEO was not nasty and he was doing the job he was paid to do.

Read more, write less

In many localities, driving at night with your headlights/lamps off is a ticketable offense.

 

[marshaul]

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Hawklyer and mr. biggles, I know you two secretly want kissy time. So why don't you get on with that while we get this thread back on topic?

 

[mrbiggles]

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cccook wrote:

mrbiggles wrote:

you're a government shill, and the enemy of the people of the united states. you are the enemy of freedom and americanism.

you are the long arm of a tyrannical government. you are the one that will show up on people's doorsteps if they don't obey. you enforce unconstitutional laws.

ps: you haven't sold me on why i need you around. why you are worth anything to me. and why i should allow my money to be stolen to pay for you. and why i should allow my liberty to be squashed for you to do your "job".

Speaking for myself, I need Hawkflyeraround because like LEOs I cannot be everywhere at any given moment. Right at this very moment my daughter is 4 miles away from me, my wife is 8 miles away and my mother is 3 miles away. Clearly I need help protecting my loved ones.

While it is not a perfect solution to my dilemma, two of my loved ones are in locations with LE presence and I am grateful for whatever measure of protection that affords them. As to the third, my father would likely muster an armed appropriate response to any grave threat.

While I appreciate your zeal for constitutionally protected freedom I find it difficult to envision that a world with zero LEOs would function better. Furthermore, I see no just reason to demonize Hawkflyerfor his honorable service to his community. Clearly the brush you paint with is too broad.

i agree with you and i never said anything about having NO LEOs. why do people jump to these conclusions?

i want constitutional law enforcement... thats it.

 

[ODA 226]

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Mr. Biggles or Johnny B or whatever you call yourself today... how wasyour court date? Did the "man" take away your licence?