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Man shot 22 times before finally going down.

mrbiggles

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Walleye wrote:
mrbiggles, I'd understand your outrage if the incident were a clear cut case of JBT'ing, but from the information given, the officer saw something that he thought was amiss and decided to check it out. The guy in the car was doing all kinds of suspicious stuff, yet the officer didn't force him down and cuff him right then and there. In this case, he was driving around with his lights off, which made that car and driver a danger to others - topped off with the fact there's no constitutional protection for driving a car, when you endanger the lives of others then you're no longer using constitutionally protected rights.

Ask yourself this question: if you see someone walking along the street in front of your house with a mask on and a gun in hand, walking back and forth while looking at your house, wouldn't you be a little bit suspicious of his intent?
There should be constitutional protection in your car. We gave it up a long time ago. Unfortunate.

lots of things are dangers to others, you just made the case for harassing OCers... because guns are a danger to others, you carrying a gun IS a danger to others. So by your logic it would be ok for LEOs to harass you for open carry while you've done nothing wrong.

as for your question. Yes i would be suspicious. but i would not run out there and start giving orders, and yelling for him to drop his weapon. I would certainly be ready to defend myself or my family...
 

Hawkflyer

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It is apparent to me that we are dealing with a reading and comprehension problem. The LEO did not just start barking orders to this guy out of the clear blue. You really do need to slowly and carefully read the story all the way through, stop and think for a moment, and THEN post comments. So far nothing you ave said tracks with the story.

You might also give some consideration to reading the post incident analysis links provided to you in the Original post (OP). Itwould be beneficial if we were all talking about the same incident, without confusion with other unrelated issues as well.

Regards
 

mrbiggles

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Hawkflyer wrote:
It is apparent to me that we are dealing with a reading and comprehension problem. The LEO did not just start barking orders to this guy out of the clear blue. You really do need to slowly and carefully read the story all the way through, stop and think for a moment, and THEN post comments. So far nothing you ave said tracks with the story.

You might also give some consideration to reading the post incident analysis links provided to you in the Original post (OP). Itwould be beneficial if we were all talking about the same incident, without confusion with other unrelated issues as well.

Regards
i read the story. and the OP.

the guy was in a parking lot at night. which was enough cause for the LEO to ask for his paperzzzzz.

allegedly he didn't have his lights on in the parking lot. ok...

if YOU read my post you would see i said it was lucky this guy was apparently a criminal.

I for one would not appreciate being hassled by an LEO for parking in a parking lot at night. would you? is it acceptable to have to show zeee paperzzzz in this situation?

do the ends justify the means?
 

Hawkflyer

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mrbiggles wrote:
i read the story. and the OP.

the guy was in a parking lot at night. which was enough cause for the LEO to ask for his paperzzzzz.

allegedly he didn't have his lights on in the parking lot. ok...

SNIP...

I really don't know where you went to school, but you really should ask for your money back. the first sentence in the report reads as follows -

"Officer Peter Soulis was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off."

Now most people who can read and comprehend can see that the guy was DRIVING with his LIGHTS OFF. One presumes that since it says "...pull into the lot..." that the guys was DRIVING ON THE ROAD with his lights off.

That sir is probable cause to approach the individual and see what is going on. In fact is it enough to actually arrest the guy if the LEO wanted to be nasty.But that is not what happend because this LEO was not nasty and he was doing the job he was paid to do.

Read more, write less
 

Task Force 16

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mrbiggles wrote:
Hawkflyer wrote:
It is apparent to me that we are dealing with a reading and comprehension problem. The LEO did not just start barking orders to this guy out of the clear blue. You really do need to slowly and carefully read the story all the way through, stop and think for a moment, and THEN post comments. So far nothing you ave said tracks with the story.

You might also give some consideration to reading the post incident analysis links provided to you in the Original post (OP). Itwould be beneficial if we were all talking about the same incident, without confusion with other unrelated issues as well.

Regards
i read the story. and the OP.

the guy was in a parking lot at night. which was enough cause for the LEO to ask for his paperzzzzz.

allegedly he didn't have his lights on in the parking lot. ok...

if YOU read my post you would see i said it was lucky this guy was apparently a criminal.

I for one would not appreciate being hassled by an LEO for parking in a parking lot at night. would you? is it acceptable to have to show zeee paperzzzz in this situation?

do the ends justify the means?



Dang man, you just don't get it.

Even if the man hadn't already committed a crime elsewhere, the LEO's actions and the shoot were still justified. The LEO didn't initiate the use of firearms into this incident, the guy he was checking out did.

If anything the LEO is lucky that the BG wasn't a better shot, since the BG opened fire first (IIRC).

Had the LEO been really lucky, the driver would have turned out to be just a drunk, that he would have arrested for DUI and being armed while Intoxicated (AUI?) and the guy would have lived to spend some time in jail and the LEO would not have had to draw his weapon.


Edited: BTW, the rest of you clowns had be rolling in the floor. :lol:Who says gun toters don't have a sense of humor? Now i have to clean up my computer station, before it gets sticky.
 

mrbiggles

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Hawkflyer wrote:
mrbiggles wrote:
i read the story. and the OP.

the guy was in a parking lot at night. which was enough cause for the LEO to ask for his paperzzzzz.

allegedly he didn't have his lights on in the parking lot. ok...

SNIP...

I really don't know where you went to school, but you really should ask for your money back. the first sentence in the report reads as follows -

"Officer Peter Soulis was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off."

Now most people who can read and comprehend can see that the guy was DRIVING with his LIGHTS OFF. One presumes that since it says "...pull into the lot..." that the guys was DRIVING ON THE ROAD with his lights off.

That sir is probable cause to approach the individual and see what is going on. In fact is it enough to actually arrest the guy if the LEO wanted to be nasty.But that is not what happend because this LEO was not nasty and he was doing the job he was paid to do.

Read more, write less
i really don't care if that is "probable cause" at this current time in history.

it shouldn't be. cops defending their broad authority. amazing

liberal :lol:
 

Task Force 16

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mrbiggles wrote:
Hawkflyer wrote:
mrbiggles wrote:
i read the story. and the OP.

the guy was in a parking lot at night. which was enough cause for the LEO to ask for his paperzzzzz.

allegedly he didn't have his lights on in the parking lot. ok...

SNIP...

I really don't know where you went to school, but you really should ask for your money back. the first sentence in the report reads as follows -

"Officer Peter Soulis was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off."

Now most people who can read and comprehend can see that the guy was DRIVING with his LIGHTS OFF. One presumes that since it says "...pull into the lot..." that the guys was DRIVING ON THE ROAD with his lights off.

That sir is probable cause to approach the individual and see what is going on. In fact is it enough to actually arrest the guy if the LEO wanted to be nasty.But that is not what happend because this LEO was not nasty and he was doing the job he was paid to do.

Read more, write less
i really don't care if that is "probable cause" at this current time in history.

it shouldn't be. cops defending their broad authority. amazing

liberal :lol:

So, mrbiggles, what would you prefer that LE do?

Should they just hang out at the police station until they get a call that a crime has been committed?

Would you rather a LEO not do anything when they see a driver weaving all over the road with their lights out, until they hit another car and possibly kill some one?

Maybe you would liike for the police to ignore a small crowd and keep going, because they can't see that in the middle of that crowd you are getting the crap beat out of you, maybe even stabbed to death?

By your logic, it seems, we don't even need cops, just theundertaker to go around picking up dead bodies.
 

mrbiggles

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Task Force 16 wrote:
mrbiggles wrote:
Hawkflyer wrote:
mrbiggles wrote:
i read the story. and the OP.

the guy was in a parking lot at night. which was enough cause for the LEO to ask for his paperzzzzz.

allegedly he didn't have his lights on in the parking lot. ok...

SNIP...

I really don't know where you went to school, but you really should ask for your money back. the first sentence in the report reads as follows -

"Officer Peter Soulis was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off."

Now most people who can read and comprehend can see that the guy was DRIVING with his LIGHTS OFF. One presumes that since it says "...pull into the lot..." that the guys was DRIVING ON THE ROAD with his lights off.

That sir is probable cause to approach the individual and see what is going on. In fact is it enough to actually arrest the guy if the LEO wanted to be nasty.But that is not what happend because this LEO was not nasty and he was doing the job he was paid to do.

Read more, write less
i really don't care if that is "probable cause" at this current time in history.

it shouldn't be. cops defending their broad authority. amazing

liberal :lol:

So, mrbiggles, what would you prefer that LE do?

Should they just hang out at the police station until they get a call that a crime has been committed?

Would you rather a LEO not do anything when they see a driver weaving all over the road with their lights out, until they hit another car and possibly kill some one?

Maybe you would liike for the police to ignore a small crowd and keep going, because they can't see that in the middle of that crowd you are getting the crap beat out of you, maybe even stabbed to death?

By your logic, it seems, we don't even need cops, just theundertaker to go around picking up dead bodies.
1. YES.

2. YES.

3. irrelevant. are you suggesting that LEOs should investigate all groups of people in case a crime in being committed?

4. we don't need cops (community oriented policing) but we can have LEOs who do constitutional law enforcement. I have no problem with that.

____

its amazing to me how easily some clowns like you on this board will give up liberty as long as you think it doesn't effect pistols.

you just made the argument the anti-gun morons do. you made the argument for LEOs stopping and hassling OCers. because firearms ARE dangerous and someone could possibly sometime hurt someone with it. more dangerous than weaving in traffic. more dangerous than driving without headlights.

_____ is dangerous and should be highly regulated.
 

mrbiggles

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Hawkflyer wrote:
Ok. I am now certain we are not dealing with simple ignorance. This is actually a learning disability, and I don't have time to work with him any more.

personal attack.

No wonder you're a LEO. I guess the authority is worth the near minimum wage you make. or is it that you couldn't do anything else? actually working for your money is probably too hard. i bet it feels good living off money stolen from people through taxes.

get a real job
 

mrbiggles

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marshaul wrote:
All right you two, take a breath. :lol:
:cool:

I'd really like to have hawkocrat explain in a short paragraph why i need him in my life as a LEO. What is he doing that warrants so much of my money, and so many of my liberties and i could not do for myself (if i was allowed).
 

Task Force 16

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mrbiggles wrote:
Task Force 16 wrote:
mrbiggles wrote:
Hawkflyer wrote:
mrbiggles wrote:
i read the story. and the OP.

the guy was in a parking lot at night. which was enough cause for the LEO to ask for his paperzzzzz.

allegedly he didn't have his lights on in the parking lot. ok...

SNIP...

I really don't know where you went to school, but you really should ask for your money back. the first sentence in the report reads as follows -

"Officer Peter Soulis was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off."

Now most people who can read and comprehend can see that the guy was DRIVING with his LIGHTS OFF. One presumes that since it says "...pull into the lot..." that the guys was DRIVING ON THE ROAD with his lights off.

That sir is probable cause to approach the individual and see what is going on. In fact is it enough to actually arrest the guy if the LEO wanted to be nasty.But that is not what happend because this LEO was not nasty and he was doing the job he was paid to do.

Read more, write less
i really don't care if that is "probable cause" at this current time in history.

it shouldn't be. cops defending their broad authority. amazing

liberal :lol:

So, mrbiggles, what would you prefer that LE do?

Should they just hang out at the police station until they get a call that a crime has been committed?

Would you rather a LEO not do anything when they see a driver weaving all over the road with their lights out, until they hit another car and possibly kill some one?

Maybe you would liike for the police to ignore a small crowd and keep going, because they can't see that in the middle of that crowd you are getting the crap beat out of you, maybe even stabbed to death?

By your logic, it seems, we don't even need cops, just theundertaker to go around picking up dead bodies.
1. YES.

2. YES.

3. irrelevant. are you suggesting that LEOs should investigate all groups of people in case a crime in being committed?

4. we don't need cops (community oriented policing) but we can have LEOs who do constitutional law enforcement. I have no problem with that.

____

its amazing to me how easily some clowns like you on this board will give up liberty as long as you think it doesn't effect pistols.

you just made the argument the anti-gun morons do. you made the argument for LEOs stopping and hassling OCers. because firearms ARE dangerous and someone could possibly sometime hurt someone with it. more dangerous than weaving in traffic. more dangerous than driving without headlights.

_____ is dangerous and should be highly regulated.
Actually, you've just made our argument concerning people that believe in utopian ideas.
 

mrbiggles

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Task Force 16 wrote:
mrbiggles wrote:
Task Force 16 wrote:
mrbiggles wrote:
Hawkflyer wrote:
mrbiggles wrote:
i read the story. and the OP.

the guy was in a parking lot at night. which was enough cause for the LEO to ask for his paperzzzzz.

allegedly he didn't have his lights on in the parking lot. ok...

SNIP...

I really don't know where you went to school, but you really should ask for your money back. the first sentence in the report reads as follows -

"Officer Peter Soulis was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off."

Now most people who can read and comprehend can see that the guy was DRIVING with his LIGHTS OFF. One presumes that since it says "...pull into the lot..." that the guys was DRIVING ON THE ROAD with his lights off.

That sir is probable cause to approach the individual and see what is going on. In fact is it enough to actually arrest the guy if the LEO wanted to be nasty.But that is not what happend because this LEO was not nasty and he was doing the job he was paid to do.

Read more, write less
i really don't care if that is "probable cause" at this current time in history.

it shouldn't be. cops defending their broad authority. amazing

liberal :lol:

So, mrbiggles, what would you prefer that LE do?

Should they just hang out at the police station until they get a call that a crime has been committed?

Would you rather a LEO not do anything when they see a driver weaving all over the road with their lights out, until they hit another car and possibly kill some one?

Maybe you would liike for the police to ignore a small crowd and keep going, because they can't see that in the middle of that crowd you are getting the crap beat out of you, maybe even stabbed to death?

By your logic, it seems, we don't even need cops, just theundertaker to go around picking up dead bodies.
1. YES.

2. YES.

3. irrelevant. are you suggesting that LEOs should investigate all groups of people in case a crime in being committed?

4. we don't need cops (community oriented policing) but we can have LEOs who do constitutional law enforcement. I have no problem with that.

____

its amazing to me how easily some clowns like you on this board will give up liberty as long as you think it doesn't effect pistols.

you just made the argument the anti-gun morons do. you made the argument for LEOs stopping and hassling OCers. because firearms ARE dangerous and someone could possibly sometime hurt someone with it. more dangerous than weaving in traffic. more dangerous than driving without headlights.

_____ is dangerous and should be highly regulated.
Actually, you've just made our argument concerning people that believe in utopian ideas.
our founding fathers believed in a utopian ideal? that couldn't possibly work? is that it? you know my beliefs are the same as our founders.

so lets just hold on here a second.
 

Hawkflyer

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mrbiggles wrote:
I'd really like to have hawkocrat explain in a short paragraph why i need him in my life as a LEO. What is he doing that warrants so much of my money, and so many of my liberties and i could not do for myself (if i was allowed).

I would like you to explain why I should dignify you with an answer to a question presented in that tone?
 

OldManMontgomery

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Looking at the article, I'd say part of the inadequate stopping performance was due to the officer's shooting through the vehicle for the first couple hits.. Going through automotive glass or sheet metal has to take some of the horsepower out of the bullet.

After the first volley of shots exchanged, the villain approaches and the officer scores two center mass hits. When that happens, the villain seems to change his intent from aggression to escape. No, he wasn't dead or incapable of motion but it seems he was out of the fight in reality.

There are more shots fired after this, but this seems to be the turning point. I have to wonder about the actual location of the prior 'center mass' hits. I'd be willing to bet none of those hits hit the spine directly. Had the heart or aorta been hit, the villain would have bled out in less time than 'four minutes'. The article mentions the officer fired at the villain's head when exposed. I can't believe the officer scored any serious head hits. Even a glancing blow will normally distract one's attention. On the other hand, the villain had a small level of alcohol in his system; perhaps that was enough to prevent any serious discomfort? Hard to say from here.

I keep reminding my colleagues "Anyone worth shooting is worth shooting well". COM shots are taught simply because that's the biggest target available. I frankly do not think a belly hit is as useful as a high center chest hit. Read up some on how the body is assembled; find out where the heart, aorta, lungs and brain are actually located. Know where they are in the body when the villain is standing at an angle or sideways, not just from front dead center.

It is interesting to note the officer almost talked himself into losing this encounter. He was concerned about blood loss. If he was thinking about blood loss, obviously he wasn't in so much pain he couldn't function. However, he almost allowed his fear to overcome his knowledge he was still functional. The woman screaming reminded him of his duty and responsibility. Odd but crucial timing, don't you think?

Back to firearms. Yes, he would have been better served with a rifle or shotgun. However, rifles and shotguns are clumsy things to carry while doing traffic or DUI stops. Life is just like that, sometimes. To denigrate the round involved is just a bit premature. .40 S&W has given good results in other instances. Picking a defense caliber is somewhat like Quantum Mechanics; we cannot solve for each particle or charge, but we can predict in bulk the normal responses. I'm a .45 ACP supporter, but I have an affinity for .357 Magnum as well. A well loaded .40 S&W fits into my criteria very well.

If that doesn't seem positive enough, remember everyone is going to die sometime. That's just the way it is.
 
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