Shouting 'USA!USA!' is racist..

[Jack House]

We were talking racism, not xenophobia. And no, you are merely assuming they were being bigoted. Presence of Latinos precludes an overall racist intent.

Racism is xenophobia. Again, the presence of Latinos proves nothing. Further, I have not assumed anything. If you bother to actually read what I write rather than jump to conclusions, I have not stated that it was racist, merely that it could be.

A. Still not "racism"
B. That was my point. You don't know how many truly were being racist. Period. Odds are few if any.
C. Still irrelevant. These are children.

1. This is hardly a point, it's just back and forth "yes it is" "no it isn't"
2. And my point is that you don't know they weren't
3. They're highschool students, not five year olds.

You are missing the issue. The issue is a claim of racism. There is no racism. None that you can prove in any case.
Immigration is not germane to the discussion.

I'm not the one missing anything. My entire argument is that we don't know what the context was, that racism can't be ruled out.

One problem. Hispanic is NOT a race...

Therefore it CAN'T be racism. Hate to get all technical on you. If you claim it is then you either don't know the definition of racism or Hispanic.

Since you want to be all pedantic and super techincal, let's go that route. Scientifically, there are no separate races of human. We're all the same race, Homo sapiens sapiens. Ergo, by your definition, because there is only one race, there can not exist any racism.

Sigh...

Exactly. Your point was irrelevant.

Holy hell... What's wrong with you?

Apparently not being white.

A. NOT racism. Clearly they belong to multiple races. Hispanic is not one of them. Pedantic but accurate.
B. Don't lecture me on racism. If you can't distinguish between racism, xenophobia, nationalism or plain discrimination you need to study up.
C. Your entire argument is based in assumptions you can't back up. You are merely assuming things which may or may not be true.
D. PROVE the intent of those kids and then start talking discrimination.

1. Pedantic and irrelevant.
2. Says the one that doesn't realize that racism is a form of xenophobia. :lol:
3. Once again, you're the only one that has made assumptions. "Peach"
4. Isn't that the point of this conversation? To figure out the intent of the crowd?

Until then you are blowing smoke. I'm pretty quick to see racism. I've experienced racism. Verbal, physical, subtle and in your face violent. I've called out people here in this forum.

I'm not quick to see racism, and if you go through my history, you'll see that I'm very critical of racism claims. As for experiencing racism. Good for you? You want to know something amusing? Several years back, while at a car lot in San Antonio, a black couple pulled up, rolled down their window and yelled "go back home to Mexico." So apparently, to them, based on the color of my skin, I must be Mexican and an immigrant(legal or otherwise is irrelevant). Does that not constitute racism?

I grew up in Texas. El Paso, then Bryan. I'm well versed in immigration issues.

Congratulations on living in a shithole. I wouldn't live in El Paso for anything. I also hate San Antonio because as far as I'm concerned, it's little more than an overgrown Mexican ghetto.

It's not racism. Simple as that. It's kids being stupid. Calm down... No one broke out water hoses.

No one is calling for the national guard or a revolt. We're simply pointing out the possibility that the chant had racial undertones.

 

[ed2276]

No one has asked this yet and I usually hate when people ask it because it's pedantic but I'll do it just to play devils advocate and taste the other side and for a bit of fun.

Since when is Hispanic a race? At best it's an ethnicity on a good day really it's just a catchall for a variety of races. I'm mixed but mixed isn't a race anymore than Hispanic is. Its a catchall that isnt protected.

So, how is this even remotely racist?

I'm more worried about educators that can't use proper terminology than unruly students.

According to Webster's, Ethnic is defined as :
"2
a : of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background <ethnic minorities> <ethnic enclaves> "

Ethnicity is defined as: ": ethnic quality or affiliation <aspects of ethnicity>", with "race" listed as a synonym.

Race is defined as: "2
a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics "

Race is quite closely tied to the concept of ethnicity, according to Webster.

Anyway, whether you object to the term "racist" and want to find some other term to use that is not so ugly, it is very clear what the team of "USA! USA!" chanters were on about.

 

[TechnoWeenie]

Stupid crackers.

I can never spread peanut butter on them without breaking them into 20 pieces.

 

[Stanley]

Racism is xenophobia. Again, the presence of Latinos proves nothing. Further, I have not assumed anything. If you bother to actually read what I write rather than jump to conclusions, I have not stated that it was racist, merely that it could be.

Back at you. Go back to my post were I said it may be but that I would err on the side that it's not.

not the one missing anything. My entire argument is that we don't know what the context was, that racism can't be ruled out.

Then why are you arguing? Clearly it can't be proven that it was started racists. Assuming every single one of those students is racist is a reach.

Since you want to be all pedantic and super techincal, let's go that route. Scientifically, there are no separate races of human. We're all the same race, Homo sapiens sapiens. Ergo, by your definition, because there is only one race, there can not exist any racism.

Speaking of reading posts. Go back a few were I specifically stated I was going to be pedantic to play devils advocate and for fun. Clearly that's not my position.

Recall I said THIS...

... it's pedantic but I'll do it just to play devils advocate and taste the other side and for a bit of fun.

I also stated somewhere in there that my first instinct WAS that they were racist. Which is why I watched the video and pondered over it for a long while before posting.

[*]Says the one that doesn't realize that racism is a form of xenophobia. :lol:

All Racism is xenophobia does not mean all xenophobia is racism.

[*]Isn't that the point of this conversation? To figure out the intent of the crowd?

Nope, there is insufficient data to make any such determination.

I'm not quick to see racism, and if you go through my history, you'll see that I'm very critical of racism claims. As for experiencing racism. Good for you? You want to know something amusing? Several years back, while at a car lot in San Antonio, a black couple pulled up, rolled down their window and yelled "go back home to Mexico." So apparently, to them, based on the color of my skin, I must be Mexican and an immigrant(legal or otherwise is irrelevant). Does that not constitute racism?

Nope, not racism. Xenophobia and nationalism. But in the interest of debate I understand your example but it doesn't fit. You can't compare overt racism with covert racism. Overt racism is undeniable. No one can deny saying "go back to Mexico" is discriminatory. Covert racism is HIGHLY subjective. I realize that's the point of going covert but what one person thinks is racism another thinks is not. Which one is right?

This COULD be racism and it COULD NOT be... Or it could be BOTH.

Congratulations on living in a shithole. I wouldn't live in El Paso for anything. I also hate San Antonio because as far as I'm concerned, it's little more than an overgrown Mexican ghetto.

Sounds kind of racist... Not really, but you should get my point.

No one is calling for the national guard or a revolt. We're simply pointing out the possibility that the chant had racial undertones.

You sound like you are leaning towards it being racism. I specifically hedged and then stated I would err on the side of caution.

But now we go in circles. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and you don't seem to be.

That's as far as it can go without additional data.

I clearly DON'T think it is wholly "racism." Could racist students have started it? Sure. Are most of the students racist? Doubtful. Does it really matter in the long run? Nope.

Heck, even if it WAS racist. Are we legislating thought nowadays? <-- What a strange thing to be coming from my mouth?!?!?!?

At best, this deserves a "talking to." Sanctions are overboard. Putting their face on tv is overboard.

Put away the pitch forks please...



As to the "colored" joke. I brought it out because you said "colored." That's it. It's a joke. It's not a commentary on you or your race.

 

[OC for ME]

xenophobia: fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign

racism: 1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2: racial prejudice or discrimination

bigot: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: OC for ME who regards or treats the ideology of liberalism with hatred and intolerance (I tailored this one to suit me)

Merriam-Webster Online

Xenophobia is not racism, racism is not xenophobia. A person can be classified as both a racist and a xenophobe. But these two terms are not interchangeable.

These kids, as a group, can not legitimately be called racist or xenophobes, or both. Well, loony-lib-sock-puppets can, because that is what they do. Throw the race card at every opportunity, even opportunities that have nothing to do with race.

Individually? Well, I guess harsh interrogations are in order to determine the 'intent', the 'mental state' of the violator. The thought police will be able to extract the truth from these, these, budding racists/xenophobes. Maybe the thought police can prevent one or more of these malcontents from exercising their 2A right in the future, with the proper government sanctioned motivation of course.

If the act of shouting USA repeatedly can be 'offensive', in-spite of their 1A right, then the issue is not the kids. In fact, the issue is a adult issue, adults have a problem with this. These malcontents, these children, who dared to exercise their 1A right, albeit unknowingly, without the blessings of a bunch of loony-lib-sock-puppet adults.

I can be xenophobic towards someone and not be racist, I fear loony-lib-sock-puppets in government, trying to deprive me of my naturals rights. But, I don't hate loony-lib-sock-puppets, I pity them. How can anyone hate a loony-lib-sock-puppet simply for 'knowing so much that is not so.'

Since I only fear, and not hate, loony-lib-sock-puppets for what they do to this country and its citizens in the name of 'fairness and equality', I guess I can not legitimately be classified as a xenophobe. Oh well.

I can believe that whitey is superior to 'X' but not fear or hate 'X'. Can I believe that whitey is superior to 'X', while not depriving 'X' of his natural right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and still be a racist? Is there such a thing as a 'closet racist'? A racist who never act on his racism.

These kids shouted USA, repeatedly, so what. Only those who want to be offended, those who are going out of their way to be offended are offended. Context?....puh-lease!

Chalk this 'issue' up to the media doing what media always does, make much ado about nothing.

Remember, these kids did not shout fire in a theater, they did not use 'fighting words' as described by the SCOTUS, they shouted USA repeatedly, at the conclusion of a sporting event. As has been done countless times before them. If someone got their 'feelings' hurt, especially the losers....then though.

Another example of the loony-lib-sock-puppet mind-set working to squelch individual liberty.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. - TJ

There is nothing more American than gloating, loudly, after a hard fought for win, in a sporting contest.

 

[since9]

San Antonio Independent School District officials took the chant as a racial insult to a school with all minority players from a school with mostly white ones.

Dear San Antonio Independent School District:

Check your address: San Antonio, Texas, United States of America aka USA! USA! USA!!!

Idiots.

Oh, your new grade in Geography: F.

 

[OC for ME]

As to the 'we all should be equal' loony-lib-sock-puppet gibberish.

No, we should not all be 'equal', this 'goal' is impossible achieve. Everyone is different, and since everyone is different we can not be equal.

We must all be 'equals' in the eyes of the law. Though, we all should know that this is not the case.

The quest for 'equality' only means that some must be brought down to the level as those who can not, or will not work to go up. This is the prototypical loony-lib-sock-puppet world view. Make everyone 'equal', via government mandate, even if 'they' can never be equal due to talent or the lack thereof.

I am not everyone's equal, nor is everyone my equal. I do not want to be equal to everyone, I strive to be the best I can be. This means that I may be superior to some and not others.

Those who strive for everyone to be 'equals' are a threat to my liberty.

 

[Ironbar]

Deleted

 

[DocWalker]

Dear San Antonio Independent School District:

Check your address: San Antonio, Texas, United States of America aka USA! USA! USA!!!

Idiots.

Oh, your new grade in Geography: F.

+1, this is what it all boils down to.....NOT RACISM.

 

[GhostOfJefferson]

You might have a point. Maybe everyone is just overreacting to some kids being kids.

Yep. That's the beginning and end of it, if you ask me.

If the other team is comprised of united States citizens, then claiming racism is a bit silly even for adults, as both teams could reasonably chant it and big deal. If they were not citizens, then who cares about "USA! USA!" chants, as it would be appropriate in the context of a nationalist impulse. Either course is a big ol' shrug to anybody with common sense.

 

[ed2276]

All I will say is this, people are being too sensitive now a days. I honestly feel the race card is pulled too much and too easily. Go to a hockey game and hear people chanting USA for the team, go to other sports where the chant USA is used. Does not seem to be an issue for them, so why is it an issue now? Heck in the Olympics people chant and display USA signs, I don't see how in the world that would be considered raciest. If you pick apart any situation it can be turned raciest by some factor. People who look further into a simple statement to look for raciest meaning are the ones who are being sore losers.

Apples and oranges, my friend.

I have heard the chants during hockey games, as well. However, the "USA!" chant in those instances is when a US team is competing against a non-US team. The Olympic competition is between international teams.

In the instance we are discussing, both teams are US teams. One US team was asserting that the other US team was not a US team, and that the USA had triumphed over the foreigners. I would surmise that the basis for the chanting team shouting "USA!" was that they didn't consider their opponents to be US citizens because of the appearance of their skin color.

That is racism, or at least ethnocentric bigotry.

 

[ed2276]

Honestly at this point I have no idea how to react to this incident. It is best for me to NOT put my full statement down as it might be considered a raciest comment which it wouldn't be in the first place. People need to grow some balls and stop acting like little babies. Chanting USA USA is not in by no means being raciest, go to soccer games or other sports where you see this all the time. Not raciest there? Oh my lord could it be true!

If one group of US citizens, predominantly caucasian, chants "USA!" at another group of US citizens with the intent to imply that the other group of US citizens are in fact not really US citizens, but are foreigners, and that implication has as its basis the skin color or ethnicity of the other group of US citizens, what is it, if not racism?

 

[GhostOfJefferson]

If one group of US citizens, predominantly caucasian, chants "USA!" at another group of US citizens with the intent to imply that the other group of US citizens are in fact not really US citizens, but are foreigners, and that implication has as its basis the skin color or ethnicity of the other group of US citizens, what is it, if not racism?

And if it was? So what?

Freedom of speech means just that. If we're only free to express Happy Thoughts, there is no freedom of speech.

 

[ed2276]

And if it was? So what?

Freedom of speech means just that. If we're only free to express Happy Thoughts, there is no freedom of speech.

And if some are offended by the free exercise of speech, who are you to complain about it? People are free to be offended by offensive speech, and have every right to express themselves about the offensive nature of that speech.

In case you are unaware, freedom to speak does not mean freedom from the consequences or reaction to that speech. There is certain free speech exercise which is actionable in courts of law. Fraudulent speech, slanderous speech, etc., though expressed freely, are such actionable speech.

Speech (such as chanting,"USA! USA!" to imply that based on one group of US citizens' skin color they are de facto not really US citizens, but foreigners) which attributes criminality (illegal immigrantion) to others, who in fact are not criminals, is both offensive and slanderous free speech... actionable free speech.

 

[DWCook]

See this is where my personal view comes into play, the context is being picked at. Out of the entire article claiming racism, that entire situation can be turned raciest. I'm sticking by my personal opinion that people are just being sore losers and taking small things way too far. I just spoke with a friend of mine who is Latino and he laughed about the so called racism. He even told me that is just the way of sports and if the others felt offended they need to get thicker skin.

 

[Stanley]

I just spoke with a friend of mine who is Latino and he laughed about the so called racism.

+1. Enough said...

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

Does that mean you are Caucasoid?

Nah: Heinz 57

 

[GhostOfJefferson]

And if some are offended by the free exercise of speech, who are you to complain about it? People are free to be offended by offensive speech, and have every right to express themselves about the offensive nature of that speech.

In case you are unaware, freedom to speak does not mean freedom from the consequences or reaction to that speech. There is certain free speech exercise which is actionable in courts of law. Fraudulent speech, slanderous speech, etc., though expressed freely, are such actionable speech.

Speech (such as chanting,"USA! USA!" to imply that based on one group of US citizens' skin color they are de facto not really US citizens, but foreigners) which attributes criminality (illegal immigrantion) to others, who in fact are not criminals, is both offensive and slanderous free speech... actionable free speech.

Well ed, see, I wasn't complaining about the complainers. They can whine and snivel all they want. I'm simply stating the fact that no amount of shouting "racist!" and "j'accuse!" at people are going to stop them from exercising their rights. But like I said, complain until the cows come home.

 

[Xulld]

Imagine changing the situation.


Imagine it was the Olympics.
Imagine it was truly one nation vs another.

Would it be racist then?
No.

Interesting.

BTW, everyone is racist, even when we are not trying to be. This of course does not make those that are actively trying to be racist any less of pricks.


Just my .02

 

[rmansu2]

I heard an interesting report about this incident on my drive home this afternoon. It was said that the losing team and fans had been chanting Alamo Whites as a racist taunt during the course of the game. It sounds like race baiting to me.

This is something similar to what my little brother would do when he was younger. Pick a fight just to tell the one sided story of me kicking his arse.

It's a lose-lose situation for Alamo Heights and if the reports are true then I truy feel sorry for them for succumbing to the taunts.