Has anyone disarmed you?

[Grapeshot]

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50BMG wrote:

snip...........
Was that lady NOT detained correct - she was NOT detained and did she NOT have to go through all of the legal hassle she did (right OR wrong) simple because she decided to make some STUPID point about OC to people who could really care less (other soccer mom's)...??? No the Sheriff acted and spoke stupidly about OC - much as you do - and she won in court.

You are unnecessarily verbose, insulting to posters, manufacture situations not in evidence and otherwise hardly worthy of our time. Further interaction with you is pointless.

Begone.

Yata hey

 

[lax]

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I could only find one article where someone open carrying was robbed and disarmed. I'll trust my situational awareness and open carry when I can. Most of my holsters are works of art and it would be a shame to keep them hidden.

http://tinyurl.com/56tdsu

ACTIVITIES REPORTED THROUGH AUGUST 2, 2006

FAIRFAX COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT ¨ PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE ¨ 703-246-2253

Section I: MAJOR INCIDENTS

SULLY DISTRICT STATION (DISTRICT 1)

ROBBERY

Newton Patent Drive/Newton Tavern Drive
*About 4:10 a.m. Sunday, July 30, officers were called to the area of Newton Patent Drive and Newton Tavern Drive. A 21-year-old Centreville-area man was robbed while walking on Newton Patent Drive. Two suspects approached the victim from behind, and placed a metal object up to the victim’s head. The suspects took the victim’s hand gun which he was openly carrying. The suspect’s then fled the area. The victim was not injured. The suspects were described as black males wearing dark clothing.

 

[marshaul]

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lax, that story has turned out to be a hoax, if I remember correctly. Either that, or the alleged victim turned out to have a sorted history of his own, and to have made the story up.

 

[Grapeshot]

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No cigar, lax.

This was an initial report/claim but the story did not prove to be accurate.

Yata hey

 

[nitrovic]

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50BMG wrote:

Hi all,

I'm new to this site and I am the guy who responded to Skip RE: this topic and caused this poll to happen in the first place... This poll is so highly unscientific for so many good reasons, the skewed results are literally laughable in reality...

You see, my summation about open carry being unnecessarily dangerous IS 100% valid... Legba's "non-funny joke" reply is a PERFECT example of what I intimated with my question to Skip...  The guy who took Legba's gun was drunk, and thank goodness the gun was unloaded... Now put yourself in a situation where the perp is not drunk (this even more coordinated), is an aggressive gang banger/drug dealer/punk type, and he is intent on taking your openly carried pistol away from you.... It CAN and WILL happen... You turn the corner in a mall/shopping center/grocery store/anywhere you feel "safe" and BAM, you can be disarmed and you are now his next victim with your own gun. Worst of all, through your arrogant actions of needlessly carrying in the open, that perp now has your gun to be used on who knows what other innocent bystanders... All of which could have been easily avoided if you were just carrying concealed...

Since open carry is not very widely executed by the average civilian, the only stats that I can draw upon (no pun intended) to substanciate my point would be to use the ones collected about armed law enforcement officers (LEOs) during their course of duty. According to info I found on the LEAA site; there are approximately 60,000 assaults on law enforcement annually. Also, recognize that every attack on an officer involves at least one gun in some way (the same as it would be in the civilian "open carry" perspective), except that LEOs in a dangerous situation usually have a partner or "backup". We civilians do not have this luxury usually (that's why we carry our guns in the first place, right?).

Important stat to remember: Depending on the year, as many as 10-20% of the officers killed in the line of duty are killed by bad guys who take the officer’s gun and use it against them. Interpolating that data to the above number of attacks on LEOs, that means 6,000 to 12,000 LEOs PER YEAR, DIE at the hands of the criminal who disarms them!

Another facor which officers are aware of when dealing with repeat offenders that we civilians usually don't train for is that bad guys routinely practice dis-arming techniques in while serving time in prison -- often while they are ‘bulking up’ with prison weight lifting equipment. An LEO that is aware and trained for this will STILL get their weapon stripped and die from that weapon in the percentages presented above. The odds of civilians who open carry, dying by the same aggressive confruntations HAVE TO BE EVEN HIGHER, given our lack of training/understanding of these very valid threats...

Now, I've heard lots of "tough guy" talk in this posting about learning other defensive measures so that youR gun doesn't get taken from you when you open carry, but all of that extra/necessary training is 99.9% USELESS if one just carries concealed!!! Use your training time to master proper shooting techniques, other valuable clearing drills, and quite frankly learning how to RUN FAST to avoid trouble!

Now, before the blugeoning starts on me, let me tell you that I "pack" EVERY DAY and have so since 2001. But no matter what my rights are, my state is "Shall Issue" so I ONLY carry concealed for all of the above reasons... I am not looking for trouble by open carrying, but if trouble finds me, I CAN neutralize it with my big SURPRISE the thug doesn't know about until he's 185 grains heavier (the weight of my bullet in his body)!. For those that aren't lucky enough to live in a shall issue state, but still have the right to open carry, then I say "OK, if you HAVE TO", but please realize that you make yourself a target of sorts, especially in a state which doesn't recognize "gun rights" very well because the local criminals  ALSO feel the weight of being descriminated against on the "gun" issue, so your handgun is even MORE VALUABLE to them in those localities...

"I can carry openly, so I will", is not the best logic when considering how a deadly weapon can be carried... Look at the lady who recently was prosecuted in PA for open carry at her kids soccer game... She even had a CCW so what is the logic behind open carry that day? She was just asking for trouble, that's what. And, she's lucky that trouble came in the form of "legal trouble" via an LEO arresting her than some punk hiding behind her car with a tire iron to smack her on the back of the head, take her gun, and possible kill her AND her kids! Yes, it IS that easy to happen, even to a 225lb 6' 1" tall guy like me! To think otherwise is very dangerous and equally short sighted....

Rant off now... What do you think?

Woahhhhhhh, slow down sir. I am a LEO and can tell you that your stats are very misleading. First off, the stat in reference to the A/B on officers should have ZERO correlation to OC'ing citizens. Not to sound cold, as I have been assaulted many times, but officers get assaulted because they are attempting to arrest somebody, trying to break up a fight, dealing with domestics etc. The average OC'ing citizen would not be put in this position. The officers are NOT assaulted because they have a gun, it is because of the position they are in. You are correct that some officers get killed by their own weapons, but again, that is because they are either called to the scene or initiate a police involved contact with the suspect.

I'm just dealing with the LEO aspect of this, I'm sure the others will be more than happy to argue the rest.

On a side note, I know you will be bashed (I always am because I defend some officers and probably because I am an officer), but please stay on the forum. This place needs some good two sided talks.

 

[deepdiver]

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nitrovic wrote:

On a side note, I know you will be bashed (I always am because I defend some officers and probably because I am an officer), but please stay on the forum. This place needs some good two sided talks.

You are somewhat often by a few members. But, several of us have had your back on more than one occasion. And you do sometimes poke certain members in the eye with a stick just to see what happens.

 

[marine77]

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DingDingDingDing!!!! OK fellows, time out here. Yeah 50BMG is against OC'ing, and

we're for it, that's all and nobody if going toconvince the other of anything else.

 

[marshaul]

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nitrovic wrote:

First off, the stat in reference to the A/B on officers should have ZERO correlation to OC'ing citizens. Not to sound cold, as I have been assaulted many times, but officers get assaulted because they are attempting to arrest somebody, trying to break up a fight, dealing with domestics etc. The average OC'ing citizen would not be put in this position. The officers are NOT assaulted because they have a gun, it is because of the position they are in. You are correct that some officers get killed by their own weapons, but again, that is because they are either called to the scene or initiate a police involved contact with the suspect.

+1 Glad to finally hear this straight from the horse's mouth. The idea of a criminal trying to "prove something" by assaulting an obviously armed person is ludicrous, even by criminal standards.

 

[protector84]

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If BMG is interested in having a serious discussion on this issue then I would advise that he stops using foul language and discontinues his personal attacks on other members here. If it continues, I will report him and his posts to the moderator and I suggest others do the same.

Back on the topic, as I've stated earlier and perhaps in a different thread, different techniques work for different situations. For instance, recently I was invited to a houseparty by some friends and most of the people I didn't know very well. Since I was going to an unfamiliar environment and around unfamiliar people, I decided to carry my gun (as I usually do) just to be on the safe side. However, I decided to CC because I felt that it was more courteous to do so when on someone's private residence who doesn't know I carry and to avoid a less relaxed get-together (i.e. it would be strange to be watching TV, playing pool, etc. while having a gun on your hip visibly). Also recently I have made trips to places such as the grocery store, a coffee shop, the gas station, and the bank. The grocery store, coffee shop, and bank I OCed in mainly because it was more convenient, a deterrant to trouble, and I didn't want to be bothered by anyone (i.e. bums). The gas station I decided to CC for one simple reason: the weather. If it was warmer I would have OCed but because it was colder, I CCed. Sometimes OC or CC work best for a variety of different reasons.

I have noticed how most OCers will believe that both OC and CC are good carry methods but simply depend on the circumstances. It is usually the CCers who seem to insist that one should never OC. In my opinion if someone is that afraid to show their gun while they carry, then it may be best they not carry, because if they are unable to handle themselves effectively with the general public, how can they handle a weapon in a crisis? There are a lot of criminals out there and other scary people but it is not like they are everywhere you turn. If a law-abiding citizen is unreasonably afraid to OC their weapon at least once in a while it tells me they are afraid of the general public as a whole and if you are that afraid of people you probably shouldn't be carrying. People are weird but I've OCed over a year now in so many environments and aside from the occasional nuissance that gives an attitude over my carrying most people don't even notice the gun and the few who do don't even care. Many actually find it interesting. I have had several incidents where I had to deal with violent criminals and in each of those cases, my OCing immediately stopped the threat without a shot ever being fired.

One last example was at a convenience store where there were several gangbangers in line who looked quite rough. To even my surprise, the gangbangers initiated a rather intelligent conversation about the gun I was carrying. Suddenly their "toughness" dropped a notch or two, they asked curious questions about the gun, if I had a permit, make/model, etc. and instead of them bouncing around acting like fools in the line as they were originally, instead they acted quite normal and mature and wished me a nice day. That certainly didn't mean I trusted them and I still never let my guard down and they may have been criminals or otherwise no-good to society but for what it was worth it brought out the best in them. I doubt it changed anything in the long-term of their lives but for the moment it did make them think twice of their behavior and I'd still rather have bad people become better people than bad people become dead people. They probably had guns too and probably illegally. You have to have your guard up but you can't go through life being afraid of everyone.

A final point is that OC doesn't make you a target if there is more than one of you. If a criminal sees one person OCing it may mean there are even more people CCing which is quite a deterrant. Imagine if a criminal walked into a bank to rob it and 5 out of the 10 people in line were OCing. Would you pull a gun in a restaurant where you knew the other 100 patrons all had guns? More proof that OC clearly deters crime and trouble in general. Even kids seem to behave better around OCers. The old saying "an armed society is a polite society" can be witnessed throughout history. People behave better in a society whereindividuals take responsibility for their well-being vs. a society where people are raised on a spoon-fed diet of political correctness where survival is dependant on joining the hive-mind, group-think, fearful consumerism that is delivered mainly by the media and the school system. Enough said.

 

[Miracle]

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very nice post.

 

[nitrovic]

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deepdiver wrote:

nitrovic wrote:

On a side note, I know you will be bashed (I always am because I defend some officers and probably because I am an officer), but please stay on the forum. This place needs some good two sided talks.

You are somewhat often by a few members.  But, several of us have had your back on more than one occasion.   And you do sometimes poke certain members in the eye with a stick just to see what happens.    

Very true. I can't resist with Dougie, surprisingly I have actually agreed with him in a couple of his posts of late, hell must have indeed frozen over.:lol:

 

[50BMG]

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Well it's been a while... I KNOW you all have missed me (NOT!)...

nitrovic, thank you for the modicum of support for my arguement... I am also sorry to see that you have lost yet another one of your LEO brethren up here in MI. I guess his odds of getting killed with his own sidearm got better than "being hit by lightning" as one of the above posters seems to believe:

http://www.odmp.org/officer/19722-police-officer-mason-samborski


Hmmm, lets figure the odds now... In MI. we lost 2 officers last year an oneof them was killed with his own sidearm... 50%!!! Pretty "bad" odds if you ask me....

Samborski was married and the father of a 1-year-old daughter. RIP you brave soul... And while you are up there in heaven, please pray for these "cop wannabees" on this site, who even though many of them HAVE the right to carry concealed, they choose to endanger me and all of us around them when they carry openly... Also please pray that some concealed carry person ison the scenewhen these open-carriers do meet their fateat the hand of some armed thug who wants their gun,so that their sidearm doesn't make its' way onto the "street" to do even more damage to other LEOs, innocents, or to further impede our fight for TRUE 2nd Amendment freedoms when the anti-gun people sit back and say "I told you so"....

Amen.....

Do you get it yet? It CAN and WILL happen....

:banghead:

 

[Miracle]

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Oh for crying out loud.

And if one cop was killed all year, and that one cop was killed by his own sidearm all other cops would have a 100% chance according to your logic?

1) be THANKFUL no other LEO's were lost, period.

2) make note of the anomaly of the one being killed with his sidearm. It is a proven statistical oddity based on years of data - not a whopping two instances in one state.

If you want to try to pick a fight sir...you came decidedly under prepared.

 

[shad0wfax]

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50BMG wrote:

Well it's been a while... I KNOW you all have missed me (NOT!)...

[SNIP]

:banghead:TROLL/NECRO:banghead:

 

[50BMG]

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Miracle, I am not looking for a fight, and I am ALWAYS thankful for my law enforcement friends and relatives, I certainly wish them no harm EVER... What I am trying to do is prevent ME having to fight for my rights to carry the "proper" way (concealed; when/where it's legal).. Under prepared??? You ain't seen nothin' yet.......

Look at this article:

http://www.herald-mail.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=74048&format=html

Notice the middle section:

Seale, 67, sometimes looked back on those violent times with humor as he told of the Panthers, armed with guns on their first outing on the streets of Oakland, Calif., when they marched, only 14 strong, in what he called a "legal" protest against police brutality toward blacks.

The guns, he told the 200 members of the mostly white audience in the college's Storer Ballroom, were "an equalizer" against white racist groups and police who beat up black civil rights protesters.

"We felt we had a right to defend ourselves," he said.

Under California law it was legal to carry loaded, unconcealed weapons in those days, he said. Within six months the California Legislature passed laws making it illegal to carry loaded guns in the city limits, he said.



If you wanna play "cop"? Do it with your children and cap guns, without affecting my rights to self defense please....

As I said before, I SUPPORT open carry, but ONLY if there are no other options... It's clear that not all of the posters here are under those constraints, and it CAN and WILL come back to bite all of us, sooner or later.....

My only hope is that the "point" that some of you feel you have to make with open carry, also doesn't cost one of you wannabees your life, and possibly mine when I have to draw my concealed weapon to save your hind-quarters....

 

[Big Gay Al]

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50BMG wrote:

.............Hmmm, lets figure the odds now... In MI. we lost 2 officers last year an oneof them was killed with his own sidearm... 50%!!! Pretty "bad" odds if you ask me............

Samborski was married and the father of a 1-year-old daughter. RIP you brave soul... And while you are up there in heaven, please pray for these "cop wannabees" on this site, who even though many of them HAVE the right to carry concealed, they choose to endanger me and all of us around them when they carry openly... Also please pray that some concealed carry person ison the scenewhen these open-carriers do meet their fateat the hand of some armed thug who wants their gun,so that their sidearm doesn't make its' way onto the "street" to do even more damage to other LEOs, innocents, or to further impede our fight for TRUE 2nd Amendment freedoms when the anti-gun people sit back and say "I told you so"....

Amen.....

Do you get it yet? It CAN and WILL happen....

:banghead:

And don't YOU get it? This happens to Polices officers and security guards because they wear a uniform, and because they are in the business of enforcing the law.

IF I am walking down the street, OCing, am I likely to accost someone and check out their ID, ask them what they think they're doing and so on? No. Officer Samborski was not attacked from behind either. At least not by the description. He was in a scuffle with the perp, and unfortunately for him, he lost control of his weapon.

Oh, and yes, it can and will happen again. To some other police officer. DOH!!

 

[Big Gay Al]

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50BMG wrote:

Miracle, I am not looking for a fight, and I am ALWAYS thankful for my law enforcement friends and relatives, I certainly wish them no harm EVER... What I am trying to do is prevent ME having to fight for my rights to carry the "proper" way (concealed; when/where it's legal).. Under prepared??? You ain't seen nothin' yet.......

Look at this article:

http://www.herald-mail.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=74048&format=html

Notice the middle section:

Seale, 67, sometimes looked back on those violent times with humor as he told of the Panthers, armed with guns on their first outing on the streets of Oakland, Calif., when they marched, only 14 strong, in what he called a "legal" protest against police brutality toward blacks.

The guns, he told the 200 members of the mostly white audience in the college's Storer Ballroom, were "an equalizer" against white racist groups and police who beat up black civil rights protesters.

"We felt we had a right to defend ourselves," he said.

Under California law it was legal to carry loaded, unconcealed weapons in those days, he said. Within six months the California Legislature passed laws making it illegal to carry loaded guns in the city limits, he said.



If you wanna play "cop"? Do it with your children and cap guns, without affecting my rights to self defense please....

As I said before, I SUPPORT open carry, but ONLY if there are no other options... It's clear that not all of the posters here are under those constraints, and it CAN and WILL come back to bite all of us, sooner or later.....

My only hope is that the "point" that some of you feel you have to make with open carry, also doesn't cost one of you wannabees your life, and possibly mine when I have to draw my concealed weapon to save your hind-quarters....

Yup, they changed the California law because black militants were taking advantage of their law and walking, apparently menacingly down city streets with rifles, carbines and shotguns. This was a lot more scary than any thing that we have done.

 

[Big Gay Al]

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nitrovic wrote:

Woahhhhhhh, slow down sir. I am a LEO and can tell you that your stats are very misleading. First off, the stat in reference to the A/B on officers should have ZERO correlation to OC'ing citizens. Not to sound cold, as I have been assaulted many times, but officers get assaulted because they are attempting to arrest somebody, trying to break up a fight, dealing with domestics etc. The average OC'ing citizen would not be put in this position. The officers are NOT assaulted because they have a gun, it is because of the position they are in. You are correct that some officers get killed by their own weapons, but again, that is because they are either called to the scene or initiate a police involved contact with the suspect.

I'm just dealing with the LEO aspect of this, I'm sure the others will be more than happy to argue the rest.

On a side note, I know you will be bashed (I always am because I defend some officers and probably because I am an officer), but please stay on the forum. This place needs some good two sided talks.

I do agree that "good two sided" talks are a good thing. But I'm not so sure about some of the people on the other side.

Arguments only have a point if people on both sides have an open mind. Unfortunately, that's not always the case.

 

[50BMG]

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Big Gay Al wrote: "Yup, they changed the California law because black militants were taking advantage of their law and walking, apparently menacingly down city streets with rifles, carbines and shotguns. This was a lot more scary than any thing that we have done".



(black people exercising their right to OC) Scary Al??? They WERE carrying pistols Al, read it again and don't mold the story to fit your arguement... Do armed black people scare you Al? Are you some kind of racist or something? Black people "on average" live in WAY worse neighborhoods than white people "on average" and thus, THEY stand the MOST benefit from carrying a gun! Do you want to deny them their right to carry Al because they are SCARY? Take your foot out of your mouth now Al and stop saying that what the Panthers did is ANY diffferent that what you OCer are trying to "prove"... Read the article again Al.... Al, do you know EXACTLY why Michigan enacted handgun registration long long ago? You know, purchase permits and the old "green cards"... Do you know why Al?

Al, respectfully, LOOK AROUND!!! Some of the "I'll just shoot 'em up / I'm packing heat-SEE! / I am your protector, I'll just blow them away if there's trouble/ I am a lean mean fighting machine with a GUN on my hip" attitudes on this site are ATTROCIOUS from a Right to Keep and Bear Arms standpoint!!!

Jeffrey Figer would have a FIELD DAY with you guys in court and yes, more than likely, all of this tough guy talk WILL find it's way into court should you ever draw your weapon some day...

BTW Al... Officer Samborski, that now dead officer, was in a "casual" situation when that PUNK attacked him, took his gun, and blew his a$$ away!!! Samborski was doing that kid a favor by taking him home instead of to jail because the kid was out after curfew and didn't have his ID on him... So, instead of taking the kid to jail, he thought he'd help the kid out by taking him to his parent's/guardian's apartment... When they got into the building, the kid took the opportunity of Samborski being off guard and used every element of suprise that he had at his disposal (just like it will be with a thug on the streets with you OCers) and KILLED that combat trained officer!!! The last words heard out of that officer's mouth were; "NO! PLEASE DON'T DO IT!" and then a single shot rang out.... That poor brave man and his 1 year old daughter that will NEVER know him... Don't be a fool in thinking this situation is any different than what OCers will face... It's EXACTLY the same.... You're off guard, suprised, then DEAD and disarmed... End of story (and don't give me the crap that I know is coming about you"ALWAYS being on guard...". SO ARE COPS ON DUTY!)

Al... You WILL see me at a Michigan OC get together this summer, and I will demonstrate EXACTLY how youcould be killed and disarmed someday... No... I am not going to take your gun from you, but I will show you how you are vulnerable to attack and disarming BECAUSE you are OCing... You don't know what I look like do you Al.... Feeling nervous now Al?Muuuuaaaahhhhh aaahhh aahh ahhh aaaaaah....

Better be prepared Al... YOUR OC test is coming...... (that is not a threat either so don't get your Big Gay Panties in a bunch... LOL... BTW, I LIKE the Big Gay Al character... LoL..)
:lol:

 

[Miracle]

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50BMG wrote:

Miracle, I am not looking for a fight, and I am ALWAYS thankful for my law enforcement friends and relatives, I certainly wish them no harm EVER... What I am trying to do is prevent ME having to fight for my rights to carry the "proper" way (concealed; when/where it's legal).. Under prepared??? You ain't seen nothin' yet.......

Look at this article:

http://www.herald-mail.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=74048&format=html

Notice the middle section:

Seale, 67, sometimes looked back on those violent times with humor as he told of the Panthers, armed with guns on their first outing on the streets of Oakland, Calif., when they marched, only 14 strong, in what he called a "legal" protest against police brutality toward blacks.

The guns, he told the 200 members of the mostly white audience in the college's Storer Ballroom, were "an equalizer" against white racist groups and police who beat up black civil rights protesters.

"We felt we had a right to defend ourselves," he said.

Under California law it was legal to carry loaded, unconcealed weapons in those days, he said. Within six months the California Legislature passed laws making it illegal to carry loaded guns in the city limits, he said.



If you wanna play "cop"? Do it with your children and cap guns, without affecting my rights to self defense please....

As I said before, I SUPPORT open carry, but ONLY if there are no other options... It's clear that not all of the posters here are under those constraints, and it CAN and WILL come back to bite all of us, sooner or later.....

My only hope is that the "point" that some of you feel you have to make with open carry, also doesn't cost one of you wannabees your life, and possibly mine when I have to draw my concealed weapon to save your hind-quarters....

How funny that people carrying concealed weapons are normal citizens but those who choose to open carry are cop wannabees.

As far as I'm concerned, better the devil you know than the devil you don't know. I'd be twice as comfortable in a room of open carrying citizens than one with folks who may or may not have a weapon...including the bad guys.

When you are drawing your concealed weapon out of your clothes, mine will be already on my hand. I am not terribly concerned about my hind quarters, tyvm.
What concerns me is the cavalier attitude you seem to have about my right to protect myself in a legal manner.

And somehow I am not moved by your story of a pack of militant african americans scaring some folks back in the day... Forty years ago for heavens sake. Lots of things were a little different four decades ago.

I am also not interested in emotional outbursts...I am interested in facts and figures, all of which clearly prove that legally armed citizens are rarely, if ever, attacked and robbed of their weapons. Police officers being disarmed by criminals is a known risk of their job everybit as much as the possibility of being shot during a traffic stop or serving a warrant. Firemen know they run the risk of dying in a fire...does this mean we should ban people from lighting their fireplaces or carrying a pack of matches?

Still waiting for some common sense from you 50.