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Has anyone disarmed you?

If you routinely open carry, has anyone disarmed or attempted to disarm you?


  • Total voters
    3

SlackwareRobert

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Great statistics, now how many apples are stollen from the average orange
grove each year?

How can you count leo gun grabs and assaults, the only relavent number
is the leo who was randomly mugged for his wallet and gun. Not those
attacked becuase they are trying to take away the livelyhood of the poor
misunserstood BG. You look at people who confront bg on the street
and then assume that the revese will be true.
Also police have rules of conduct when useing force, I only have to worry
about the grand jury, and no such political correctness problems from my
bosses.
How about allowing the good guy to boobytrap the weapon so if bad guy
grabs it it will blow up in his face. Oh, but that would be mean to him wouldn't it.

Now why would you let a gang banger get withing grabbing distince of your
holster? Oh thats right, most of those leo assaults were by thugs wearing
silk suite and ties to fool them.
 

SkipCoryell

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Thanks for your response. A couple of things come to mind.

Comparing civilian open carry to LEO carry is like comparing apples and oranges.
LEOs routinely get into physical confrontations with the worst society has to offer.
That's when their gun is taken, not when they are walking down the sidewalk.

Civilians in open carry mode should have layers of pistol retention (Which I do, even when carrying concealed) they should also be on their best behavior (which I do even when carrying concealed).

It's just another option that people have and should retain. It has its place. Let me sum it up for you by cutting and pasting an excerpt from the book "RKBA: Defending the right to Keep and Bear Arms".

"The sad thing about the whole open carry debate, is the emotional division that pervades it. It reminds me of the hunting community. I’ve seen it happen so often and the anti’s just love it when we argue with each other. Here are some examples:
Hunting with dogs is bad.
Hunting Mourning Doves is bad.
Bowhunting with a modern compound bow really isn’t bow hunting.
Hunting with a crossbow is bad.
Hunting over bait is not sporting and not really hunting.
I suppose in my opinion, we should tolerate each other as much as we can. In fact, I’ll go even further than that. Not only should we tolerate each other’s preferences, we should mutually support them.
The practical application would sound like this:
“I prefer not to hunt Mourning Doves, but you go ahead so long as it’s legal.”
“I prefer the challenge of a wooden longbow, but you shoot any bow you like.”
“Crossbows? You go ahead, so long as it’s legal in that state. Same thing for hunting over bait.”
Sometimes we get so dogmatic and intolerant as sportsmen and gun owners that we tend to cannibalize our own teammates. We need to get away from that. Let’s just live and let live.


Just my humble opinion.

Skip Coryell
www.mwtac.com
www.skipcoryell.com
 

rodbender

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If you want to CC only, fine. Just don't try to push it off on the rest of us. I will CC when I can. If it's too hot and I decide I want to wear shorts and a tee shirt, I'll OC, when it becomes legal. Oh, and don't try to undermine the rest of us gaining backthe right to OC in Texas or any other state.
 

50BMG

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SkipCoryell wrote:
Thanks for your response. A couple of things come to mind.

Comparing civilian open carry to LEO carry is like comparing apples and oranges.
LEOs routinely get into physical confrontations with the worst society has to offer.
That's when their gun is taken, not when they are walking down the sidewalk.

Civilians in open carry mode should have layers of pistol retention (Which I do, even when carrying concealed) they should also be on their best behavior (which I do even when carrying concealed).

Sometimes we get so dogmatic and intolerant as sportsmen and gun owners that we tend to cannibalize our own teammates. We need to get away from that. Let’s just live and let live.

Just my humble opinion.

Skip Coryell
http://www.mwtac.com
http://www.skipcoryell.com


OK Skip, one by one here:

I never meant to draw the 100% analogy of LEO open carry to civilians doing the same, but in terms of the results of attacks and the disarming of the carrier, these analogies ARE comparable...

1). Yes LEO's DO put themselves in harms way, the point of bringing up those stats is that one is also "asking for trouble/putting ones self in harms way" when you carry openly, by enticingthe very same types of brazen bandits that the LEOs confront. Even though LEO do get attacked 60,000 times a year, and the number of civilians that get attacked under my scenarios would be much less (for now while the numbers of open carriers is relatively low anyway), even hand to hand combat TRAINED LEOs get killed by their ownguns 10% to 20% of the time!!! I would expect untrained civilians to experience at least as much, if not an even higher degree of deaths in similar disarming confrontations, agreed?

Also, LEOs have somewhat of an advantage in being attacked in that they are EXPECTING trouble from the people that they confront (the LEO is there BECAUSE of trouble afterall). A civilian, being blindsided by a thug who wants their openly carried gun, doesn't have that advantage so they aren't nearly asprepared for that same thug's attack at the time of occurrence...

2). Layers of retention??? That is EASY to do when carrying concealed, but what are your "layers" available when carrying openly, a thumb break on the holster? What else is possible when the pistol HAS TO be carried in the open to be "legal"? If one doesn't have a CCW/CPL then how can one cover the weapon any more without making oneself a "lawbreaker" too? Also, if you make it any more difficult to draw the weapon so that it doesn't get taken from you, then what good is carrying it openly in the first place???

I am not trying to be dogmatic or adversarial to ANY people who believe in the definition of the second amendment as you and I do. But, open carry, in places that are "Shall Issue" in the first place, not only jeopardizes the open carriers lives and the lives of innocents around them should they be disarmed, it also jeopardizes the rights of those of us that go through the time/trouble to get our CCWs!YOU KNOW that ANY deaths brought about by ANY citizen's firearms on the streets CAN and WILL be used by the anti-gunners and their media mouthpiecesagainst BOTH groups (CCW holders and open carriers)to further squelch the right to own and carry firearms at all...

I'm sorry... Unless your state does not have a CCW/CPL provision, and open carry is the only way of protecting oneself outside the home, then I see no need to carry in the open! And as a CCW/CPL holder,I WILL fight to show the err in this technique anywhere that IS "shall issue"..... Your "live and let live" philosophyis ENDANGERING MY RIGHT to carry concealed, whether you choose to believe it or not!

The more open carriers there are, the more my theory will be proved correct,I guarantee it!
 

SlackwareRobert

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How is your right to ccw in danger unless you admit it isn't a right to begin with.
Then it is always in danger by the leftist. OC on the other hand is a right,
and therefor not subject to the whims of a few nuts in so cal, just the 5 known
nuts who can't read in DC. It is a situational thing, there are times
when OC is the only lawful thing to do. Like VA with the resturant and booze.
I also have the restriction on cc, but since no permit to oc I don't violate my permit
by OC in bar since it forbids me to conceal.

We will just have to agree that we will never agree, and wish both our rights are
respected.
 

50BMG

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Rodbender,

I cannot see the logic in open carry at all when the right to concealed is available....

I am not 100% familiar with Texas' laws...Isn't open carry the only legal means to carry there or am I confusing your state with AZ?

As far as your "shorts and T-shirt" scenario, you just described my wear throughout the ENTIRE summertime here in MI (being self employed, even "at worK" am I found in that attire). I still "pack" 100% of the time, and it is always concealed!!!

A S&W 340PD (.357 Magnum)in a Desantis Nemesis holster easily fits into ones front shorts pocket... It's outlike looks like a wallet and it's light weight doesn't "swing" when walking, even when carried in a front/lower pocket of cargo type shorts... I have asked many LEO friends and even a trained NTSB worker friend to tell me if they can see I am "packing" with that rig on, and NONE of them can identify it to any degree more than a "guess"...

There are MANY options for concealed carry that make open carry 100% "stupid" IF concealed IS a legal option in your state....
 

SkipCoryell

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I don't have a lot of time to respond. I get these all the time about all kinds of concealed and open carry topics. I'll be brief.

No one will disarm me without disabling me first. I am not defenseless, even without a gun. I am a firm believer in the Blackhawk Serpa Pushbutton retention holsters. (Preferably the police grade. It costs more but it's worth it.)

I'm not saying OC is for everyone. But it is for me at least part of the time.
Be careful about very strong statements that you may have to retract later on.
Come to an open carry event here in MI and we'll chat.

In the meantime, let's stay friendly. You respect my views and I'll respect yours, even if we don't understand or agree. Sound good?

God bless.

Skip

P.S. So you're a fellow Michigander. Have we met?
 

StateIH

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Going back to the post on the previous page regaring some numbers, for clarity:

I wasn't sure of the exact source of 50BMG's data, but from info that agrees with his found here (http://www.nleomf.com/TheMemorial/Facts/daifacts.htm) paints a much different picture of LEO's killed with their own weapon. The 60000 assaults per year is only an assault. For deaths in the line of duty, an average of 167 is given for the last 10 years. Applying the 15% killed with their own weapon gives ~25 officers a year. A bit different result than 6000-12000 per year.

I'll agree with the others that comparing open carry citizens tolaw enforcementis notthe best, but25/yr. means about .003% of all LEO (based on 900,000total US LEO from site above)
 

deepdiver

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I await reading one verifiable instance of this happening to a legally OCing law abiding non-LEO/security officer citizen by a bad guy.
 

Grapeshot

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deepdiver wrote:
I await reading one verifiable instance of this happening to a legally OCing law abiding non-LEO/security officer citizen by a bad guy.

+1


I have said before and I will say it again - pure myth, urban legend. This is the rhetoric of those that would disarm us one nick at a time and it frustrates me to see it continued by a FNG who purports to be for our right to carry if we hide it.

50BMG perhaps you should read a lot more about the subject of OC and on this site before formulating what are very obviously unsubstantiated opinions, not fact. With hardly a polite hello, you announce that we are wrong, you are right and you "guarantee" that your "theory" will be proven right. Further, you choose to make these utterances on a site obviously dedicated to promoting that which you say is "stupid."

One has to wonder what your agenda really might be. Is there anything positive that you have to offer? Are you open minded enough to educate yourself before slamming the choir? BTW if you wish to maintain any credibility here, research your facts/data and do not misrepresent them or yourself.

People come to OCDO to become more knowledgeable, to share experiences, to further our cause or to bait and argue for its own sake. What is your intended purpose? I have reached my own conclusion and others might be interested in your reply - I am not - maybe later.

Yata hey
 

marshaul

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50BMG wrote:
2). Layers of retention??? That is EASY to do when carrying concealed, but what are your "layers" available when carrying openly, a thumb break on the holster? What else is possible when the pistol HAS TO be carried in the open to be "legal"? If one doesn't have a CCW/CPL then how can one cover the weapon any more without making oneself a "lawbreaker" too? Also, if you make it any more difficult to draw the weapon so that it doesn't get taken from you, then what good is carrying it openly in the first place???
Honestly, you're too uninformed to be commenting on this subject. This post demonstrates that you know basically nothing about "duty-style" belt holsters and the retention features they offer.

Take a look at Blackhawk! and Safariland. Safariland considers a thumb break holster "Level II", and they make holsters with retention features up to "Level IV". There are all kinds of different retention options available, and few are alike.
 

50BMG

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SlackwareRobert wrote: "How is your right to ccw in danger unless you admit it isn't a right to begin with.
Then it is always in danger by the leftist. OC on the other hand is a right,
and therefor not subject to the whims of a few nuts in so cal, just the 5 known
nuts who can't read in DC. It is a situational thing, there are times
when OC is the only lawful thing to do. Like VA with the restaurant and booze.
I also have the restriction on cc, but since no permit toOC I don't violate my permit
by OC in bar since it forbids me to conceal.
We will just have to agree that we will never agree, and wish both our rights are
respected".


Sorry for the delay Robert, I haven't been ignoring you... Lets face it, just about ALL of our God given "rights" have been bastardized in this country (unfortunately)! The 2nd Amendment is no different... There have been "common sense laws" passedregarding all of our firearms rights since way before I was even born, and there are surely more to come with THIS new administration in DC... So in that respect, yes I DO feel that I need to protect my CCW "rights". And even though you sound plenty intelligent to recognize this fact for yourself, let me reiterate it anyway. Your currently unfettered "right" to open carry WILL ALSO be up on the blocks for public scrutiny soon enough... Not by my hand mind you, but by the liberal pantywaists that have the public voice that has affected all of our other God given rights along with the "gun" ones... Your OC example of "bars" is a good one Robert, but personally, I would rather carry illegal in a place like that rather than have what happened to Legba happen to me, but this time by a non-friendly who will then have my LOADED handgun.... I DO appreciate your honest/sensical candor in relating to me, an apparent adversary on this issue... The agree to disagree measure is one that is unfortunately way too commonly overlooked on MANY issues in this country, but it is one that I swear by, as evidently do you....



Skip later posted: "No one will disarm me without disabling me first. I am not defenseless, even without a gun". "Be careful about very strong statements that you may have to retract later on. In the meantime, let's stay friendly. You respect my views and I'll respect yours, even if we don't understand or agree. Sound good?
P.S. So you're a fellow Michigander. Have we met"?

Skip, you being disabled is EXACTLY my fear with open carry... It IS that simple... A tire iron to your head in a packing lot on the way to your car... A champagne bottle to your head in the grocery store... 5 thugs jumping on you when you turn the corner in amall... It's sounds "paranoid" but I could go on and on about TONS of ways that even a 1/2 smart felon could disarm you to take your gun.... Do these things happen a LOT? Well, no, because OC doesn't happen a lot right now either. But the more people you folks convince to the "smartness" of OC, the more it will... Again, IF your ones state ONLY allows open carry, then I am 100% behind it... If a state I was visiting didn't recognize my CCW and I could OC, then YES, you'd probably even find me open carrying instead of going unarmed (I just spent the T.Giving weekend at my sisters place in Chicago and let me tell you, I felt buck NAKED without my handgun in my waistband... I still had my pocket knife to fall back on as I always have one of those on me too, but literally, those few days are the ONLY days that I haven't "packed" in @ 8 years).... As far as strong statements, I have not intentionally called any of you anything derogatory intentionally... I have said things like "stupid" and "tough guy", but again those were directed at thoughts and concepts, not individuals.. I AM an ally of yours, more than you would know... As far as the 2nd Amendment, let me clear the air on that right now: The "2nd", in regards to what firearms/weapons are covered under that glorious clause, to me means "anything and EVERYTHING that is currently available to our or any modern military force"! In that I include ALL guns/assault rifles/machine guns, artillery, cruise missiles, well armed supersonic fighter aircraft, bombs, mines, grenades, ANYTHING! In fact, my dream is to some day own a 155mm Howitzer, for real! Unfortunately, this dream will probably never be able to be realized the way things are now and will probably degrade as time goes on, but it IS still a dream of mine.. As you could probably gather by my handle, I am a .50BMG shooter and I own 2 of those rifles (both bolt action-match grade types; look at my avatar-that's me shooting "Bessy" at night), and I also own enough pistols, and rifles (both sporting and "military style") to make the hairs of Chuck Schumer fall out (I am convinced that I AM the reason why that bastard is half bald now! LOL....)! I AM very vocal on gun rights and I HAVE gone to bat publicly for them before. But for the life of me, I cannot see a logical reason why OC is something that makes sense where the right for concealed carry is available! No Skip, I have never had the pleasure of making your acquaintance, I hope to reverse that one in the near future though...

StateIH, Deepdiver, Task Force: Granted, I may have been "off" on my extrapolation of the data I posted here yesterday (I gathered that quite quickly in my own defense).. Those quotes and numbers WERE a "cut and paste" off of the LEAA webpage however... As I said above, more than once, the stats that you are looking for that support what I am saying hereare probably yet to be compiled, simply because of the low numbers of OC'ers right now, but the more you guys push this issue, I am POSITIVE the more of these instances you will see... When I get more time, I will do more searching on this though... There has to be some numbers out there somewhere in cyberland....



Grapeshot: OK, fair enough (even thought I am not 100% sure on what the "FNG" stands for???). I'll even take a bit of an insult from you if that's what it is, as you are correct, I HAVE come pretty strong out of the gate on this one.... My intentions are not to squelch your rights where OC is the ONLY option... Don't put on the tin foil hat (not an insult, I always joke about the tin-foil hat that I wear... LoL...), I have no agenda other than to make sure that this OC movement doesn't affect MY rights for self defense, and whether you choose to see it that way or not, it IS a possibility that it will do exactly that....



Maybe I should search this site more for the answer to this question, but while I have your attention, let me ask it anyway...

WHY is this OC option so important to you all, IF you currently live in a shall issue/CCW type of state? What benefit do you all see with OC that is not already available with concealed carry, if not trumped by concealed carry? Again, I am not addressing the states where OC is THE only option... But for the others, WHY?
 

protector84

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The fault with BMG's logic here is that OC makes you a target by a BG which is unlikely the case. In fact, it has actually become the opposite with me where it actually caused me to NOT be a target. The example of getting hit over the head with a tire iron or champaigne bottle only makes sense if either oftwo things are valid: a) that you are oblivious to your surroundings allowing someone to sneak up on youor b) the BG would have attacked you regardless of whether you were carrying and/or alert.

If someone is determined to attack you chances are they will. Most criminals "size up" strangers before attacking. Anybody who is carrying a gun and especially if the gun is visible should be VERY aware of their surroundings.This would mean you have already had the opportunity to size up the criminal before he sizes you up already giving you the situational awareness advantage.

One example that happened to me is when I was walking down a street late at night in a not-so-good area. I was carrying concealed but in an OC holster. Three gangbanger types were heading past me on the street but as they came within about 50 feet they started making motions to each other all while looking at me. Suddenly they change directions and come directly toward me and begin to space themselves out from each other in a tactical manner. In a casual manner, I lifted my shirt up and tucked it behind the holster making the weapon visible and continued on about my business without acting nervous or changing my direction. When they got to a distance of about 20 feet, the first person clearly saw the gun and motioned to the others in a frantic manner and all three quickly changed angles of direction again away from me and as they continued on a couple of times they looked back in a nervous manner. In all fairness this MAY have just been acoincidence but it would have been obvious to any reasonable person that they were sizing me up for something criminal and were deterred by the gun. This allowed all of us to part ways without anyone being hurt. If instead the gun remained concealed, one of two things may have taken place. They may have attacked me not knowing I had a gun which would have actually caused me to pull it and use it against one of them. The other alternative was they could have surrounded me and pulled a gun of their own and at that point it would have been too late to pull mine.

There is a time and place for everything. Sometimes CC is more sensible and tactical but other times OC is a better option. As the saying goes, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." My goal for carrying a gun is not to shoot someone. I treat it as a tool that is designed to enhance safety both for me as well as the surrounding public. A CC gun does nothing to deter crime whereas an OC gun deters most crime. An OC gun won't deter all crime as nothing is foolproof. However, I would rather deter a criminal from coming in a place to rob and kill someone by simply having it visible and demonstrating readiness and situational awareness causing the would-becrook to turn around and go hit some other place than carry CC and spend the rest of my life remembering images of ending someone's life not to mention the many other consequences of using deadly force.

Last but not least I do believe that OC does carry a bit more responsibility than CC which probably causes a lot of CCers to not be interested in OCing. The two main challengeswith OC that don't come up as much with CC is a) weapon retention and b) readiness to deal with an emergency. Both of these increased challenges can be easily overcome with proper holsters and goodpractice.
 

SlackwareRobert

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50BMG wrote:
WHY is this OC option so important to you all, IF you currently live in a shall issue/CCW type of state? What benefit do you all see with OC that is not already available with concealed carry, if not trumped by concealed carry? Again, I am not addressing the states where OC is THE only option... But for the others, WHY?
Well my sister is getting married, and I will be wearing my new 'Formal' piece.
And you just can't CC an 8" barrel. But it goes so well with my suite, and boots.
Alas I dug out my hat, and it is a little tattered, cat must have gotten in the closert
sometime.
Just wondering about her photographer, and if he will only shoot shots from my right side at the reception.

Nope not local to your area, i'm in a might issue state, but better than a jump in a
lake state I guess.

Another safety point.... When my strong arm was in a sling, couldn't get to my cc holster. With the doctor charges, I shure couln't go out and spring for a second
holster for a few weeks, and learning to draw around a wounded wing.
Are you for denying rights to the wounded in our society.:X

Yes die-hard bad guys might want to target you for the weapon. But most
are going to move on, and the few that wouldn't would also not want to go at it alone. Now that you have multiple targets, your "spidey' sence should be a tinglin"

When you do have to worry about those 1 in a million bunch,it is amazing how much
more alert you become to whats going on around you. Maybe it is from growing up
with my dad an NRA hunting/safety instructor. I would watch the shoot / don't shoot
tests with every class, and just look at my surroundings the same way now Safe / not safe. Avoiding and incident is by far the best choice.
Just this last year we had a college student killed in her car, pulled over to talk on
cell phone, those idiot "dangerous to talk and drive campaigns", she saw them comming, and had time to draw if she had been armed.
I always leave car in gear when stopped, so I have the option of spinning the
back tires over anyone comming up from the side. But from both sides I now need
to be able to defend in two directions, and with 'seatbelt laws' cc is not an option
with one hand being used to grind out one threat. If you have never spun a car
about there are a lot of centrifical forces to fight against, without the added
problem of clothing cought in a seat belt.

There are just times, and places where OC is better. Now if you are just
trying to enhance your 'manhood' then we should be looking at banning ownership
for mental health, not banning OC. I have aways lived my life making shure
I never fit in a mold, I am always the exception to the rule. On my motorcycle
I had a car turn left in front of me. I won! I knew where to aim for best
results for me, and did so. Thanks 'uncle Sam'. Bet they never thought
of that use when learning about road blocks.

I remember when I was being thrown up on the police car hood, my mind was
deciding on target selection to best get trough this. It was the forth one at my 6
that was the problem, as I had no reliable sighting of him.
Order was take down one with hands on me, then either the 6 o'clock or the 4 oclock
partner was last with his hands crossed and slouching would be way to slow to pose
a threat at first. Police car gave limited protection from my 6, and partner at 12 wasn't a threat so probably the 4 oclock for first shot. I was just deciding where I
was drawing the line till I reacted and then there would be bullets flying, once I drop
the out of control one, I was going to have no choice on the back two since view is
obstructed. I had no doubt that action against one, would commit me to the rest.

He did finally calm down, and I am greatful for the incident, because it removed the last qualms I have about self defence. Like hitting a women, it took one wailing on
me before that one went away. Guess I'm just wired differently, I don't worry about
the immediate pain comming and consentrate on the outcome. It is liberating in itself,
but doesn't seem to be the norm for thought and actions. You drill for the actions,
and just let your body do what you taught it to.

Yes the leo don't know me, but by the same logic, I don't know them either. Would
like to see more de'tant and let both sides stay armed and mutual distruction
win the day.

Heck i've already made my kidnapping tape in case a hospital tries to hold me
against my will, and sends my wife a ransom note for money. I'm ready for way
more than just the brain eating zombies!
 

protector84

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Sometimes it is difficult explaining to people in public why I OC even though I have a CCW permit. Even though the reason given is that it is a deterrant (which is true) the real reason is the obvious one: convenience. Concealed means hiding something and therefore if you want something hidden you probably want it hidden well which means more work. If I really don't want anyone knowing I have a gun then at the very least I have to wear an IWB holster and even then a real observant person can see something a little different about the way I walk and a slight extension under the shirt. Some people compensate for this by wearing an undershirt, tucking the shirt in, or wearing an additional shirt, etc. Obviously this isn't foolproof when someone accidently bumps you in line and discovers something "like a gun" under your shirt, the wind outside causes your jacket to lift up momentarily, or other things. I've always believed if you are going to hide something there should obviously be a reason. That is why I only conceal carry in certain environments and around certain people but to conceal a gun everywhere I go doesn't really make sense. There are so many environments that just give me no reason why I would need to hide the gun and I can't imagine why I would ever need to conceal it when merely walking down a public street. The question should actually be reversed. Instead of asking people why they carry a gun visibly the real question is why people should hide their guns. It makes little sense to me.
 

Grapeshot

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Deterrent - yes. Far better to stop something before it starts.

Convenience - yes. Easier, less restrictive and much more accessible.

Education - Yes. The public cannot be educated on this right of the people if they do not see good examples and are not caused to think/talk about it.

I have had more good positive conversations with strangers and acquaintances alike that would not have ever occurred if my gun was hidden from common observation.

A bit grandiose perhaps, but we are emissaries of the 2nd Amendment.

And back on thread - no I have never been involuntarily disarmed nor has any one ever attempted to do so. If an individual ever considered that action, I am reasonably sure that further reflection gave them pause as to what the potential results might be.

Yata hey
 

Aran

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Indiana, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

50BMG wrote: And, she's lucky that trouble came in the form of "legal trouble" via an LEO arresting her


You might want to re-check your facts there, bud.

She wasn't arrested, nor prosecuted, nor any other words you want to come up with. She had her license revoked, appealed, and had it returned to her, and now SHE is suing THEM over it.

As in "the plaintiff" in the case.
 
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