Has anyone disarmed you?

[crotalus01]

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50BMG seems not to grasp the differences between a LEO and a civilian OCer.

As to his smash and grab theory, in the real world all the situational awareness on the planet really cant prevent someone from blindsiding you with a champaign bottle in the grocery store, but how likely a scenario is that really? You would think it would be a common occurance in areas that have a lot of OCers, but I have yet to hear of a single verifiable instance of it happening, so I say its a moot point. OTOH, I have read lots of verifiable instances of OC preventing an encounter with BGs and have personally experienced it myself a couple of times. OC and CC both have their places in the larger scheme of things IMHO.

Think of it this way - if OC was SO bad, and guns were being grabbed by BGs left and right from OCing citizens, then OC would be illegal in the majority of states because it WOULD be a danger to the general public.

As to the general public, I have found that probably 95% of the sheeple dont even notice my gun when I OC. The only people actively looking to see if Joe Q Public is armed are the cops, the BGs and other OCer/CCers.


When threatened, a dog may well bare its teeth and growl. Anyone with common sense recognizes this as a sign of potetial aggression - dont **** with me because I WILL bite you. My OCed gun is my bared teeth to the criminal. Yeah, there may be someone stupid enough to **** with the snarling dog, but they are few and far between - easier to move on to the dog with the wagging tail.

 

[Big Gay Al]

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Unfortunately, there is no satisfying some of the more rabid anti-OC types. They see our actions in exercising our right to OC, as threatening their "privilege" of CCing.

 

[BoomBoom]

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For those of us old enough to remember, it's a trip down memory lane---for the rest of you, maybe you can share it with your mama or grandma, daddy or grandpa!! Enjoy !!!

DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN....?
All the girls had ugly gym uniforms?

It took five minutes for the TV warm up?

Nearly everyone's Mom was at home when the kids got home from school?

Nobody owned a purebred dog?

When a quarter was a decent allowance?

You'd reach into a muddy gutter for a penny?

Your Mom wore nylons that came in two pieces?

All your male teachers wore neckties and female teachers had their hair done every day and wore high heels?

You got your windshield cleaned, oil checked, and gas pumped, without asking, all for free, every time? And you didn't pay for air? And, you got trading stamps to boot?

Laundry detergent had free glasses, dishes or towels hidden inside the box?

It was considered a great privilege to be taken out to dinner at a real restaurant with your parents?

They threatened to keep kids back a grade if they failed. . . and they did?

When a 57 Chevy was everyone's dream car...to cruise, peel out, lay rubber or watch submarine races, and people went steady?

No one ever asked where the car keys were because they were always in the car, in the ignition, and the doors were never locked?

Lying on your back in the grass with your friends?
and saying things like, 'That cloud looks like a... '?

Playing baseball with no adults to help kids with the rules of the game?

Stuff from the store came without safety caps and hermetic seals because no one had yet tried to poison a perfect stranger?

And with all our progress, don't you just wish, just once, you could slip back in time and savor the slower pace? Share it with the children of today.

When being sent to the principal's office was nothing compared to the fate that awaited the student at home?

Basically we were in fear for our lives, but it wasn't because of drive-by shootings, drugs, gangs, etc. Our parents and grandparents were a much bigger threat! But we survived because their love was greater than the threat.

Send this on to someone who can still remember Nancy Drew, the Hardy Boys, Laureland Hardy, Howdy Dowdy and the Peanut Gallery, the LoneRanger, The Shadow Knows,Nellie Bell , Roy and Dale, Trigger and Buttermilk.

. ..as well as summers filled with bike rides, baseball games, Hula Hoops, bowling and visits to the pool, and eating Kool-Aid powder with sugar.
Didn't that feel good, just to go back and say, 'Yeah, I remember that'?

I am sharing this with you today because it ended with a double dog dare to pass it on. To remember what a double dog dare is, read on. And remember that the perfect age is somewhere between old enough to know better and too young to care.
How many of these do you remember?
Candy cigarettes

Wax Coke-shaped bottles with colored sugar water inside.

Soda pop machines that dispensed glass bottles.

Coffee shops with table side jukeboxes.

Blackjack, Clove and Teaberry chewing gum.

Home milk delivery in glass bottles with cardboard stoppers.

Newsreels before the movie.
P. F. Fliers.

Telephone numbers with a word prefix...(Raymond 4-601). Party lines.

Peashooters.
Howdy Dowdy.

Hi-Fi's & 45 RPM records.

78 RPM records!

Green Stamps.

Mimeograph paper.
The Fort Apache Play Set.
Do you remember a time when....
Decisions were made by going 'Eeny-meeny-miney-moe'?
Mistakes were corrected by simply exclaiming, 'Do Over!'?
'Race issue' meant arguing about who ran the fastest?

Catching the fireflies could happily occupy an entire evening?

It wasn't odd to have two or three 'Best Friends'?

The worst thing you could catch from the opposite sex was 'cooties'?

Having a weapon in school meant being caught with a slingshot?

Saturday morning cartoons weren't 30-minute commercials for action figures?

'Oly-Oly -oxen-free' made perfect sense?
Spinning around, getting dizzy, and falling down was cause for giggles?
The worst embarrassment was being picked last for a team?
War was a card game?

Baseball cards in the spokes transformed any bike into a motorcycle?
Taking drugs meant orange-flavored chewable aspirin?

Water balloons were the ultimate weapon?

If you can remember most or all of these, then you have lived!!!!!!!

Pass this on to anyone who may need a break from their 'grown-up' life . I double-dog-dare-ya!

 

[Big Gay Al]

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I guess I don't have Alzheimer's, I actually remember most of that.

 

[Sonora Rebel]

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I remember and participated in all of that. Coke machines were a nickle... and sometimes we'd bet on who had the bottle fromthe furtherestaway. (The bottling plant was stamped on the bottom of the bottles) I know what a 'Pa-Doodle' is too.

 

[SteveInAshand]

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MAJOR EDIT 3/6/09.

Answer: to Criminal attempts, No.

Answer to LEO attempts, No

Having been in 2 civilian life & death CQ gun fights, shot seriously in one of them, amongst my other unmentioned at this time gun involved "incidents"
( highly understated) .

AND

Being an approx 50% OC / 50% CC guy for 20+ years , no one has ever even come close to attempting to disarm me.

I can guess that there is a few reasons why I have never been disarmed by either .

#1 reason is : I have ultra high SA, others are I always cant a bit to the weak side ( unarmed side ) to a possible snatch threat , and I keep my gun high and tite on my hip with with a proper belt width to mach my holster so it is snug, I keep my arm down over it as a matter habit to intercept a possible grab when I am in close quarters with people such as shopping etc...

As for criminals & thugs : 1) I am highly aware, also they ( thugs ) they know that I know who they are , I spot them fast from a mile away and we "read" each other.

Street Darwinism: The Bobcat knows the Coyote well and vs vera and they ( we ) leave each other alone.

2) I don't come into close space contact with criminals like LEO's do very often, as Cops are always grabbing BG's, so the opportunity for a gun grab from me is minimal.

3) I am very hard target, and hard looking , for those who are looking for a target , I exude calm masculine real yet non cocky Alpha male confidence in other words even tho I am not a bad a** UFC prize fighter or a big NFL line backer I "am" tuff and it shows, so why waist time on me as I am a hard target when a thug could or would get hurt trying to get my gun , so they leave me alone.

As for LEO's: They have never felt a need to disarm me, 1) I dont "look" like a marginal or unstable person, what i am saying is I am clean cut , articulate and present myself in a factual calm friendly manner.

2 ) I am a wanabee cop at heart , lol, I love Cops and it shows, they pick that up intuitively when they stop me for what ever reason such as a broken tail light and right away I build a report, so we get along right off the bat.

The Gun Grab Personality: I believe no matter whether you are an experienced IDPA shooter or an OC person who only shoots once a year, if you give off a fearful, submissive or hesitant unsteady vibe than no matter what you are carrying you are at risk for a disarm grab.

WARRNING: I beleive myself that if I wanted or needed too that I can be unarmed and walk up and disarm the vast majority OC people without getting a scratch on my side , why and how, because most Americans are just not awair and not clse to being tuff.

Excluding very elderly, trully disabled folks , and small frail women, most Americans who are so called "average" Joes and Janes are not physical.

You can have high SA and still not be able to retain your gun., let alone use it fast enough to save life and limb.

If you are prone t doubt you could see joe scumbage comming from a fotbal feild away and hesitate when He starts to talk to you to gain your confidence ( relax your awrairness ) or shout out a hypnotic comand to make you freez and doubt and there by punch your lights and out put you into Heaven sleep befor your bed is made .

Most Americans are weak and frail, they are not fighters , and not experienced in physical combat, plain and simple if you canot take a hard punch or series of punches to the face aka a sucker punch , sucker attack and remain clear minded, focus and jump into imediatly offence or at a minimum retention then your gun will be gone and you wont even know it until the bright flash ( from your gun ) transports you into the bright loving light that meets you at the end of the tunnel and tells you that you lost.

 

[Ian]

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protector84 wrote:

When it comes to someone trying to disarm you, you should use standard self-defense techniques, the first of which includes basic common sense. First, here in Arizona, a law enforcement officer does have the right to temporarily disarm you during a detention or arrest. If you are stopped by a police officer either while driving, on foot, or otherwise, you are actually under arrest. That doesn't mean you are going to jail but by law you are being detained and you are not free to go. The officer must have probable cause to detain you and they do have the right to disarm you while you are detained. I have seen several posts about refusing to hand over your gun to a police officer. I don't recommend this. There are plenty of crooked and corrupt cops out there on the street who would love an excuse to kill someone and they know that they will get away with it. It is better to do what the cop says, keep your mouth shut, take mental notes, and as soon as you are free to go or are already booked depending on the outcome, write everything down, and call a lawyer if needed. Resisting a cop on the street will get you nowhere and if you have a gun that you don't turn over, you could easily be killed. Keep your mouth shut, do what you are told, and if the cop is in the wrong, then when you are safely away from the situation, get a lawyer and take legal action. You are much better off fighting the cop in a courtroom with an attorney than arguing on the side of the road. While some cops are good, don't trust them all. Some may be criminals themselves, take bribes, and are not mentally sound. If you are in fear for your life from a cop, there are things you can do. If they are trying to pull you over or otherwise stop you and something seems fishy, call 911 from your cell phone and do not stop. If it is legitimate, they will call backup and if you are dealing with ten cops instead of just one, then the one bad cop will probably not do you wrong in front of the other good cops. You can always defend your actions in court with an attorney if need be.

As to non-LEOs trying to disarm you, use standard self-defense techniques. You should already be aware of your surroundings in the first place. If they make a reach for it or touch the holster or gun, quickly rotate so that the gun is out of their reach. Physically push their hands and body away if necessary and verbally order them to stop and ask them what they are doing. I wouldn't draw yet because if they are close enough to reach the gun, they are close enough to knock it out of your hand. Security guards do not have the right to disarm you in such a manner. They can tell you that firearms are prohibited on the property and ask you to leave. If you refuse to leave or get belligerant toward them, they can just as an LEO or a citizen disarm you for everyone's safety because you have already broken the rules and refused their requests to leave or disarm. They cannot just simply run up to you and grab it away. If the person is still aggressively trying to grab your gun, use as much physical force as necessary to get them away. If you have a semi-automatic, I would release the magazine catch. Some guns have a safety where it won't fire with one in the chamber if the magazine isn't present. Other guns will still fire but you now have one bullet to worry about if they get it away from you instead of 10+. If they are this aggressive, it may be advisable to draw and fire that one round into the person if possible. I carry a switchblade on me as a backup. If I am on the ground aggressively struggling to keep my firearm from getting taken away and I feel like I am losing the battle, I will be reaching for the knife because as soon as they get the gun away, before they even have a chance to fire it, they will have a knife in their throat. Everyone has their own strategy so use what works for you. A gun is easier to grab away than a knife. I would release the magazine and then grab the knife and start stabbing them. I could probably do this faster than they could pull it from the holster and fire that single round into me. Additionally, I stand a greater chance of surviving a single bullet than they do surviving a knife wound or many of them.

I'm sorry, but if someone that is not a uniformed LEO just reaches for my gun, you bet your ass I will be drawing down on them.

This is why good situational awareness is very important while OC'ing. You should avoid situations that would even give someone the option of pulling your gun (which would obviously be EXTREMELY unlikely) such as resting your elbow on the top of your weapon, and avoiding having people close behind you. Anyone within 20 feet could be considered a potential threat. You have to always be aware of your surroundings.

 

[deepdiver]

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Ianmtx wrote:

You should avoid situations that would even give someone the option of pulling your gun (which would obviously be EXTREMELY unlikely) such as resting your elbow on the top of your weapon snip

How would resting your elbow (or forearm) on top of the grip of your weapon be a situation that "would ...give the someone the option of pulling your gun?"

 

[sheepdog]

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...while grammatically incorrect Ianmtx makes an excellent point...awareness and such simple things as keeping your elbow close to your gun to block a grab have kept me safe for many years on the street....wide awake and thinking every minute....those of us who've been there got the meaning....

 

[Ian]

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deepdiver wrote:

Ianmtx wrote:

You should avoid situations that would even give someone the option of pulling your gun (which would obviously be EXTREMELY unlikely) such as resting your elbow on the top of your weapon snip

How would resting your elbow (or forearm) on top of the grip of your weapon be a situation that "would ...give the someone the option of pulling your gun?"

I said putting your elbow on the top of your gun would avoid situations that would give someone the option of pulling your gun.

 

[deepdiver]

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Ianmtx wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

Ianmtx wrote:

You should avoid situations that would even give someone the option of pulling your gun (which would obviously be EXTREMELY unlikely) such as resting your elbow on the top of your weapon snip

How would resting your elbow (or forearm) on top of the grip of your weapon be a situation that "would ...give the someone the option of pulling your gun?"

I meant putting your elbow on the top of your gun would avoid situations that would give someone the option of pulling your gun.

Thank you for the clarification. I was confused there for a minute.

 

[abearir]

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Holy crud, I'm old...But this is so true

 

[LeMat]

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TheOP asked "Has Anyone Disarmed You?"

It's been attempted six times. None of which succeded and one came away with his fingers broken.

'Course that was during Idaho P.O.S.T., so not sure if that counts.

 

[Ed69]

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I've been carying a gun for 20 years and never been disarmed bye Leo or acivlian.I C.C. and O.C. about 50/50.Behave and carry your self like an adultand you have no worry's!

 

[SteveInAshand]

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Ed69 wrote:

I've been carying a gun for 20 years and never been disarmed bye Leo or acivlian.I C.C. and O.C. about 50/50.Behave and carry your self like an adultand you have no worry's!

MY REPLY: "AGREED"

 

[Tiny85]

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Ok is it just me or does 50BMG seem less like a CCer and more like a member of the brady bunch? seems to be the same tactics the anti gun lobby uses, no actual facts just scary stories. How about this...


<Breaking News>

"Medical Doctors have linked gun ownership to possible causes of some types of cancer! Doctors say they have found ties linking the Open Carry of fire arms to cause cancer in lab rats, with indications of increased risk with second hand gun presence. So for the safety of the kids if you want to Openly Carry a firearm please step outside away from the kids."


Sad its more socialy acceptable to walk with your kids smoking a ciggarett then to have a gun on your hip.

 

[arentol]

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protector84 wrote:

I carry a switchblade on me as a backup. If I am on the ground aggressively struggling to keep my firearm from getting taken away and I feel like I am losing the battle, I will be reaching for the knife because as soon as they get the gun away, before they even have a chance to fire it, they will have a knife in their throat.

You might also want to consider a BUG instead of that switchblade. For instance, I CC a Kel-Tec P32 as my BUG. It weighs 9.7oz fully loaded and is only 0.75 inches thick. This actually makes it not a whole lot bigger than many knives people carry every day. The P32 (or P-3AT which is only a couple mm larger in each dimension) can very safely be carried at 11:30 or 12:30 on a belt clip with a round in the chamber and no active safety on (WAY too long a trigger pull to fire accidentally). It also works well in the pocket of your jeans with the clip holding it right at the top where you can reach it fast. I personally could draw and fire mine in about 1 second with no prior practice when I went to the range for the first time.

In the scenario you describe, after you ensure the other guy only has one round available to him, and it seems certain he will get the gun, let him pull away with your gun while you start drawing the BUG at the exact same time. He will likely stumble back a bit, and it will probably take him a couple seconds to get your gun into position to fire, he may also have trouble figuring out the safety giving you more time. In the time it takes him to work all that out you can easily step back 2 feet while drawing your BUG, and start firing. The attacker has committed multiple felonies and is armed at this point, making it totally justified use of a firearm in self defense. I bet the police officers who arrive to investigate the incident would also be a lot more friendly to someone who used a BUG in the defense of a gun grab than a knife, since that is exactly what they would hope would happen to them in the same situation. Indeed, I bet a lot of the officers would be really interested in seeing just how effective the P32 or P-3AT was in that situation.

 

[GWbiker]

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TheOP asked "Has Anyone Disarmed You?"

Hmmmm, No LEO's in Pennsylvania or in Arizona ever disarmed me.

However during basic training at Ft. Knox in 1957, several times I was disarmed of my M-1 Garand by a junior officer who then inspected it.

Does that count??:uhoh:

 

[arentol]

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50BMG wrote:

Hmmm, lets figure the odds now... In MI. we lost 2 officers last year an oneof them was killed with his own sidearm... 50%!!! Pretty "bad" odds if you ask me....

You are being very disingenuous with this statement, because you know perfectly well that those "odds" are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT....

What you are saying is basically the equivalent of saying that because 50% of all gun deaths are suicides half of the US Population kill themselves every year.

The RELEVANT way to determine an officers odds of being killed by his own weapon are to compare how many confrontations with BG's at less than 3 feet (since by definition a gun grab MUST take place within 3 feet) there were in MI compared to how many officers died from a gun grab.

Lets go back to 1997 since we don't have full data for 2008 yet...

There were 322,941 arrests in Michigan last year, so by definition we know there were AT LEAST that many 3 foot confrontations. So assuming (quite generously to you) that these arrests were the ONLY gun-grab situations that ever took place, and assuming that there were the same number of arrests in 1998, we come up with 1 officer killed by his own weapon out of 645,882 gun grab range confrontations, or a 0.000155% chance of an officer at close range with a suspect being killed with his own weapon in Michigan.

Now lets apply that percentage to OC'ers...

To start with, lets assume an OC'er in a gun grab situation is 5 times as likely as an officer to die from his own weapon. Do I think this is true? No, but I want to be as generous to you as possible while still showing how ridiculous you are.

About 48% of households in the US have guns. that is basically 150,000,000 people with access to guns. There are are also about 2,500,000 Defensive Uses of Guns (DUG's) per year in the US. Assuming (quite generously to you) that every DUG was withing gun grab range that equates to a 1.67% chance per year that a gun owner will have a confrontation.... But lets triple that to 5% for OC'ers just to be generous again.

MI has a population of basically 10,000,000 people and 1.7% of the population has CPL's. So that is 170,000 licenses. So assuming (again quite generously to you) that MI has just as many OC'ers as they have CC'ers, that is 170,000 OC'ers in MI...

So 170,000 OC'ers times 5% chance per year to have a gun grab range confrontation times a 0.000155% chance of a gun grab situation resulting in the OC'ers death from his own gun = 0.022 deaths of OC'ers from gun grabs in MI per year, or one such death every 45 years... And that is while being very generous to you on every number.

Spread that back over the entire US population and that is 1 such incident every 1.5 years. However, using realistic non-generous to you numbers the end result for MI would have been about one every 1800 years (Assuming: MI police officers had twice as many gun grab range confrontations as actual arrests, that a successful grab and kill is twice as likely to happen to an OC'er than a police officer not 5 times, that at most half of all DUG's take place at gun grab range, and that at best there is a 1 to 4 ratio of OC'ers to CPL'ers), and for the US as a whole it would be 1 every 60 years.

So your own argument only goes to show exactly how unlikely the situation you are describing actually is.

Of course, just general gun thefts in this manner, without a death, would be considerably higher, maybe as much as 5 per year for the US in a bad year, but gun grab deaths from their own gun just don't happen to OC'ers.

 

[rah45]

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Hello, first post from a newbie member. 50, after reading every single post I have to agree that you twist at least some of your major points to your benefit and that you seem unwilling or unable to see logic.

I have had my GFLfor less than a year, and I have to say that I have OC'ed more than CC'ed. I at first did conceal carry, because while I wanted to protect myself and my family and, I will admit, I have always loved John Wayne movies, I have never really had the chance to practice at all. I don't have a lot of confidence that I could accurately fire my weapon at any distances past, say, 10 yards with someone standing still. I realized that I CC'ed because I was somewhat afraid, so I mentally went over the logical tactical advantages and disadvantages of both Concealed and Open carry. They are as follows:

Open Carry Advantages:

1) You represent yourself to the world as what you are, a willing defender of innocent, peaceloving people, whether you know or like them or not. In doing this, you may deter BGs from deadly intentions. 2) You have a quick, smooth draw every time with no worries. 3) You DO NOT have to touch your weapon until you are ready to use it. Therefore, there are no questions as to what Your intentions are. 4) It's just so much more darned comfy to carry openly. 5) You can display your favorite holster, and pistol, all day long.

Open Carry Disadvantages:

1) Theoretically, there is a very small number of people who actively seek out OC'ers and attempt to disarm them. To my knowledge, this has never beencited as happening.

Concealed Carry Advantages:

1) The BG's do not know you're carrying. 2) If you have an ugly holster and/or sidearm, you do not have to show it.

3) The best reason, I think, for concealed carry is based on a hypothetical situation. If I have no choice but to travel to an area where I know there are many armed people who may be hostile toward me, I would choose to CC so that I might appear to be a sheep and be ignored. However, if something did go wrong, I may have the element of surprise on my side. The chances of this happening, though, are extremely slim.

Concealed Carry Disadvantages:

1) LEOs, and any other lawfully armed citizen who may respond to your situation, may only see you and one or more other people who have resorted to deadly combat. What if they, seeing no holster, deem that you may be illegally carrying and, through bad chance, determine that you're a possible BG? I know that if I thought someone was a BG and I saw a holster I would pause to consider other options. I would be thinking that maybe I was wrong about you.

2) You have to move clothing to get to your weapon. That may take more than one hand and you may only have one to give. Your pistol may get caught on your clothing.

3) You said that you can expose your firearm to ward off danger just like an OC can. If I see someone who is OC'ing, I will note it and move along, remembering to keep an eye out for them. If I see someone watching me who is moving their clothing to get to a hidden weapon, my mind will scream that you are a threat. Now, I am not a BG, but not all BGs are cowards. They may back off at the sight of a weapon, but if they perceive you moving to draw it, they may decide that they have no choice but to beat you to the draw. You have just become a victim instead of avoiding the situation by an open show of force.

4) People that pay attention know when someone is feeling really nervous. When I CC, every time my clothing bumps or catches on something I start to think, "Oh, crap, am I exposed now?" Driving around town and walking around places usually exposes you to bumps and catches and just feeling like your pistol may have shifted the wrong way. I don't know about everyone else, but it sometimes makes me nervous, and being nervous is bad.

5) You don't get to show off your pretty, diamond-encrusted holster.

6) You don't get to tell the world that you have rights that come from the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, and that you are not afraid of what lies in the dark but are prepared to stand against it, even if to the death, in defense of yourself and others.

Now, I think that I have made many logical points that are worth noting. I am 23, a person who for most of his life has been a video-game playing couch potato. I am part of a generation of young adults who have grown up being molded through government education. I also do not have the background nor do I currently have the time (I am in college, I am married, and I have a 2 year old daughter) to stand up for our right to bear arms as you claim that you have done. With all that said, I do not understand how you cannot at the least be more civil and a little open-minded.

Sincerely,

rah45