davidmcbeth
Banned
Can they ask you to participate in the assassination of the president?
As you can see, they don't have the right to ask anything ... it is limited. The ? is what is the limit?
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
A rather strange request at Denny's
- Thread starter Superlite27
- Start date
Can they ask you to participate in the assassination of the president?
As you can see, they don't have the right to ask anything ... it is limited. The ? is what is the limit?
DocWalker
Regular Member
My smart ass would have pulled out my pocket size copy of the US Constitution and handed it to them and then told them it is in part two.....lol
DocWalker
Regular Member
You have been trained well by the US goverment MustangCowgirl.....it makes confiscating guns easier when they know were to go and pick them up at. (note the sarcasim)
fjpro2a
Regular Member
So wrong, imo
Superlite27,
IMO, you are right and Maverick9 is wrong. Davidmcbeth is also wrong. Keep up the good work, and don't get too flustered over a few others telling you how to react. I bet 90% of the members on this forum agree with the professional way you handled this, pushed the open carry movement forward, and enjoyed a breakfast.
Superlite27,
IMO, you are right and Maverick9 is wrong. Davidmcbeth is also wrong. Keep up the good work, and don't get too flustered over a few others telling you how to react. I bet 90% of the members on this forum agree with the professional way you handled this, pushed the open carry movement forward, and enjoyed a breakfast.
OC for ME
Regular Member
The one by Bass Pro?
davidmcbeth
Banned
+1 .. this country is turning into a fascist state ... look at all the members here that say "Hooray in asking for your 'permission slip'!"
Running Wolf
Campaign Veteran
This is completely off-topic, but manufacturers have to honor warranties even if the consumer doesn't fill out the registration (ie "please send me junk mail") card.
Back on topic. The manager was being unreasonable in asking for ID. As somebody pointed out earlier in the thread, it would be like going into the parking lot and asking to see someone's driver's license as they got out of their vehicle . . .
Of course they can ask!
And you have the right to refuse, and to tell the authorities of their plans.
I really am at a loss for what is considered a "right" in this thread.
davidmcbeth
Banned
Yeah, go ahead and ask that question to a cop ... see where it gets you....
Rusty Young Man
Regular Member
Are we talking about Rights (God-given or Natural, however you choose to view it) or "rights" (actually closer to privileges and whims that are not fundamental or innate to every individual)?
If you respect someone's property Rights, as MAC702 does (even to his own inconvenience, which is more than I can say for myself), you will comply with their requests in order to continue being welcome on their property (just like I don't let shirtless individuals into my home unless they have a damn good reason for being shirtless).
So yes, if they ask you to abstain from wearing yellow because it makes them sad, or from wearing your left shoe because the devil wants people to wear shoes on their left foot, you comply IF you want to remain welcome there. Now, if I want to exercise my Right to wear yellow, I may still do so OFF their private property because it is not my Right to wear yellow on their private property against their wishes.
With regards to the OP: if they ask or even demand to see ID or a permit, they may do so, and it is their Right to do so as a requirement for allowing you continued access on their property. If you disagree to it, you are no longer welcome on their property and as such are now violating their Right to make whatever asinine requests they wish to establish for anyone on their property. However, you have the Right to exercise your RKBA elsewhere, as that Right has not been infringed upon by the individual who only has authority (property Rights) on their parcel of land.
A Right is a Right until it "conflicts" with another Right, and analysis reveals which "right" is not actually a Right in that case.
Where is Eye95 to explain this (and far more eloquently than I)?
Rusty Young Man
Regular Member
Irrelevant. The reason for being arrested and the cop's likely refusal to leave (because of perceived authority) in the rhetorical case you have presented lie outside the scope of the question of Rights we are trying to address.
In the case you present, the cop will probably arrest you for conspiracy to commit murder, not for asking him to leave because he won't comply with your requests on your property.
Also, depending on the state/city/cop, the cop is likely not going to leave because of an inflated sense of authority (some pronounce it "authoritaah") beyond his actual duties.
A better example would have been to ask that anyone who wishes to come onto your property, or is already there and wishes to remain on your property, pour jello on their pants, or leave if they will not comply.
Rusty Young Man
Regular Member
Forgive me if I seem to be splitting hairs, but I think you are confusing what you CAN do (literal ability as well, but I use it here as what you have the Right to do), versus what government (notice I didn't use "the") PROHIBITS you from doing.
This distinction is VERY important:
If we are to believe that we all have innate Rights (either God-given or Natural, take your pick), then we cannot accept the notion that Rights are granted to us by government or any being existing among our peers (someone roughly equal to us). If Rights could be granted arbitrarily by government, they would not be Rights, but "rights", which could be better described as privileges or permissions.
In short, you CAN buy long guns before turning 18 and pistols before turning 21 (as evidenced by the fact that underage thugs do so), it's just that purchasing the type of firearm from FFLs before reaching the respective age requiremtn set by government is a way government has chosen to prohibit that Right.
davidmcbeth
Banned
He's on his honeymoon with onus ...
davidmcbeth
Banned
Look, they already let the customer in .. he ordered his meal ... a contract was formed. To put conditions on it at that point is not right.
And its a civil right to carry ... its like hassling an ethnic person IMO....can a business ask what nationality you are and if you are of one that they don't like, then you have to leave?
That's somethingn we should be PUSHING for ...
There are LOTS of things that are illegal to tell a cop that are otherwise not illegal. Lying, for one. So what is your point?
davidmcbeth
Banned
So you agree ... a business owner cannot ask anything ... thx
we should be working to insure that our RKBA is recognized as a civil right as well as a God endowed one..
I missed the train that took you to where I agreed with you on your first point.
I agree with your last point.
Last edited:
Rusty Young Man
Regular Member
You are correct about a contract being formed, and for that reason the OP could have simply walked out without paying, even if the meal was almost finished (and even then). However, the conditions weren't so much for the meal as for the permission to remain on the person's private property. It is likely the condition/requisite would have been explained by the (hoplophobic?) restaurant owner had the firearm been seen as soon as the OP came in.
I'm not defending the choice of the owner, I'm simply defending his Right to make that choice on his property.
As to your other post (the one about discriminating based on ethnicity), yes it IS within a person's Right to require someone to be of a certain race/ethnicity/skin tone/height/weight/gender/religion/political affiliation/sexual preference/smell. The private property owner has the Right to set the conditions/prerequisites for people wishing to be on his land. Anyone going against his wishes on his private property is violating his property Rights. But he does not have a legitimate claim to demand the same conditions/prerequisites be met off his property, so the Rights of the individuals in question are not violated so long as they are free to leave the man's property if they do not/will not conform to whatever asinine conditions he decides to set for people wishing to be welcome on his private property.
Whether or not his wishes are moral and how government deals with these kinds of conditions are two other entirely different questions.
Festus_Hagen
Regular Member
Sounds like you did good and some people were taught that not everyone with a gun is a nut. They don't freak out. They don't throw a fit, they act NORMAL, and it was a good interaction .
Wow, seems folks get so focused on some things they forget others.
The manager or any customer can ask to see a permit, it is called free speech. As someone alluded to, there is a huge difference in free speech and conspiring to assinate the president so there are pitfalls to free speech when applied to illegal behavior.
As for the word "right" it seems a few might need to learn what it actually means.
Out of the Denny's in st charles county, it depends upon which one it was as to whether the permit was REQUIRED to oc or not, perhaps only limited importance but asking the question vs calling a MWG call into the cops is not totally bad.
I would likely not have been near so polite, I also quite likely would not have bothered to answer or show it, I would have told him it was none of his business most likely. Opinions on effective approaches will always vary and nothing says superlite's is wrong, it simply does not fit me.
That does NOT mean I want the managers right to free speech altered, though as a condition of his employment the business can do so while he represents them.
it was as super said a very odd request and not one I have heard of happening before.
The manager or any customer can ask to see a permit, it is called free speech. As someone alluded to, there is a huge difference in free speech and conspiring to assinate the president so there are pitfalls to free speech when applied to illegal behavior.
As for the word "right" it seems a few might need to learn what it actually means.
Out of the Denny's in st charles county, it depends upon which one it was as to whether the permit was REQUIRED to oc or not, perhaps only limited importance but asking the question vs calling a MWG call into the cops is not totally bad.
I would likely not have been near so polite, I also quite likely would not have bothered to answer or show it, I would have told him it was none of his business most likely. Opinions on effective approaches will always vary and nothing says superlite's is wrong, it simply does not fit me.
That does NOT mean I want the managers right to free speech altered, though as a condition of his employment the business can do so while he represents them.
it was as super said a very odd request and not one I have heard of happening before.