A question to be posed.

OC for ME said:

Non sequitur.

Cite the laws (statutes) that authorize the removal of a citizen for merely OCing on his own property.

You are of the CC Industrial Complex...begone troll!

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First not only talking about other own home, gas stations, stores, public streets etc..

if we walk I to a home and family members are oc we can back out till police either secure the scene or get the family members to leave that room or have the police remove that person to us. Since in most ems/fire situations that would be deemed as a threat to our potential safety. That's basic safety risk management. My safety on the job says I do not take unnecessary risks and that would be a unnecessary risk. All we would ask is if you want us to come in and provide care please safety all weapons away from the scene for our safety. If they refuse then the scene is determined as unsafe for entry.

Those replies above are what is called industry practices and when in court we are to perform as any other reasonable and prudent paramedic would and citing past practice and other incidents and our training as such. In scene management there is so much gray where the orc/oac is concerned. It becomes up to us what is considered safe.

Nightmare said:

Reinforces my desire to personally trespass all community services.

I trained as EMT in the Eighties under Charleston EMS director Dennis Clark, after competing for a spot in the class as the only private fee paying student. I never heard such clap-trap dwaddle as cum-on-sense is shoveling. If he's the consummate professional that he would have us believe, I subsequently worked for Dr. Norman McSwain, RIP, about whom

http://www.wdsu.com/news/local-news...e-laid-to-rest-sunday-in-new-orleans/34738334

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Did you read all of the above links and see where industry practice is now versus in the 1980's where in the 80's we didn't wear gloves treating patients with infectious diseases had no safety cath needles and slot of departments didn'twear scbas or full turn out gear. Times change and best practices do as well.

Nightmare said:

I can't trespass cum-on-sense, but I can enforce my personal discretion and never see his twaddle again. *PLONK*

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All of the cites you requested are above please read.

All decisions on standard operating protocol are derived from past incidents, since as the above links show, and based on our safety the first responder. Because if we are not safe we can't help you, if we are injured we can't help you. We are trying to do a job to serve the public and their beauty and we'll being.

We as public servants are no better than the public we serve. Most reasonable and prudent people who call for our help comply with our simple requests. We don't ask for much just aas safe as a environment that can be to do our jobs to bell and serve you.

Let's try some thoughts from a nationally recognized EMS trainer:

http://www.ambulancedriverfiles.com/2015/05/31/inside-ems-podcast-dangers-to-ems-providers/

http://www.ambulancedriverfiles.com/2015/07/29/inside-ems-podcast-active-shooter-episode/

http://www.ambulancedriverfiles.com/2014/11/08/judged-higher-standard/ note the discussion is about someone actively assaulting EMS and not about someone who might/could

http://www.ambulancedriverfiles.com/2012/09/13/virginia-emts-granted-right-to-carry/ be sure to follow the reasons why that did not happen

http://www.ambulancedriverfiles.com/2010/09/22/jackson-ms-city-councilman-kenneth-stokes/ one on your side, but more of a rant about police response times

But enough of this petty BS. I want you to get back to your original question. While folks (me included) love thread drift it is just a distraction, and especially so in this thread. We may be temporarily distracted by shiny or fast-moving objects we do remember whee we started from and where we were headed.

stay safe.

OC for ME said:

Non sequitur.

Cite the laws (statutes) that authorize the removal of a citizen for merely OCing on his own property.

You are of the CC Industrial Complex...begone troll!

Click to expand...

comonsense said:

First not only talking about other own home, gas stations, stores, public streets etc..

if we walk I to a home and family members are oc we can back out till police either secure the scene or get the family members to leave that room or have the police remove that person to us. Since in most ems/fire situations that would be deemed as a threat to our potential safety. That's basic safety risk management. My safety on the job says I do not take unnecessary risks and that would be a unnecessary risk. All we would ask is if you want us to come in and provide care please safety all weapons away from the scene for our safety. If they refuse then the scene is determined as unsafe for entry.

Click to expand...

Cites not provided.

Your irrational fear is a insult to the lawful behavior of a property owner on his own property. Your irrational fear justifies that a property owner's fundamental rights can, and will be, infringed as you deem appropriate without due process as is demanded in the federal and state constitution.

I suspect that your actions, and those of any LEO accomplices, that are found to have infringed upon the property owner's rights, will be excused under the community caretaking doctrine.

skidmark said:

Let's try some thoughts from a nationally recognized EMS trainer:

http://www.ambulancedriverfiles.com/2015/05/31/inside-ems-podcast-dangers-to-ems-providers/

http://www.ambulancedriverfiles.com/2015/07/29/inside-ems-podcast-active-shooter-episode/

http://www.ambulancedriverfiles.com/2014/11/08/judged-higher-standard/ note the discussion is about someone actively assaulting EMS and not about someone who might/could

http://www.ambulancedriverfiles.com/2012/09/13/virginia-emts-granted-right-to-carry/ be sure to follow the reasons why that did not happen

http://www.ambulancedriverfiles.com/2010/09/22/jackson-ms-city-councilman-kenneth-stokes/ one on your side, but more of a rant about police response times

But enough of this petty BS. I want you to get back to your original question. While folks (me included) love thread drift it is just a distraction, and especially so in this thread. We may be temporarily distracted by shiny or fast-moving objects we do remember whee we started from and where we were headed.

stay safe.

Click to expand...

Yes I have add

Originally yes my opinion is cc is easier than oc and the why is because of public reaction not just to handguns but (I know off topic) long guns as well (as I only own shotguns). Public reaction is how most policy decisions are reached. Normalizing the oc practice has to a educational one for the public people have to be eased into it gently. Once the general public has accepted it then more and more oc can occur. The question is how do you go about educating the public (TV commercials, TV specials, web, email, facebook, public officials species, press releases, news coverage). Just telling the general public hey I can do this deal with it isn't a very effective tool. How do we find the educational process do we go grass roots or get the nra, and all gun and ammo manufacturers to donate into the pot. It is amazing what people will agree to and accept as normal if they are eased into it and charmed into it (see Bill Clinton).

OC for ME said:

Cites not provided.

Your irrational fear is a insult to the lawful behavior of a property owner on his own property. Your irrational fear justifies that a property owner's fundamental rights can, and will be, infringed as you deem appropriate without due process as is demanded in the federal and state constitution.

I suspect that your actions, and those of any LEO accomplices, that are found to have infringed upon the property owner's rights, will be excused under the community caretaking doctrine.

Click to expand...

It's not violating rights it's saying hey you want me to come in and treat I deem it not safe if firearms, knives or any other weapon is present. That is a safety issue it is not irrational fears. I am not saying you can't have it but if you want us inside to treat you after you called us we are just simply requesting you comply with our requests for safety as we are there to help.


Oh and read all of the articles I linked those are cites. Since in ems as in medicine there are not a whole lot of statutes that state what a provider shall and shall not do. It's not black and white all scenes are dynamic and flowing and each situation presents different potential hazzards.

Nightmare said:

Preceded by exigent circumstances and followed by qualified immunity. All merely defensive excuses for a public servant arrogating life and death from their public masters.

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As you have the right to be armed i have the right to be safe while performing my job. Fair labor standards act, national labor relations board all address that.

You still haven't answered my question, "comonsense".

Are you going to shoot me if you see me OCing in public because of your fear that I may have hostile intentions? God only knows what sort of things I'm up to, holding my kid's hands as we cross the street or put a box of diapers in the cart.

comonsense said:

he requests for citations listed below.* Common sense approach to scene management is to assume all bystanders especially family are potential threats.* How will a armed man react when we call the code on the scene because there is nothing more we can do for his wife and to transport bet would be a waste of resources as we do field terminations now. ...

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Drivel. Ignoring your own premise.

If the "armed man" is CC how would you know he is armed?

From the opening post: "With ccw it is hard to panic the public if they can't see a weapon to be panicked about." - CC good.
Also from the opening post: "...and seeing someone on that scene with a open carry firearm..." - OC bad.

You are not the first CC Industrial Complex (many first responders are minions as well) troll to intrude upon our diversions and you certainly will not be the last. Good morning, and good riddance!

comonsense said:

It's not violating rights it's saying hey you want me to come in and treat I deem it not safe if firearms, knives or any other weapon is present. That is a safety issue it is not irrational fears. I am not saying you can't have it but if you want us inside to treat you after you called us we are just simply requesting you comply with our requests for safety as we are there to help.


Oh and read all of the articles I linked those are cites. Since in ems as in medicine there are not a whole lot of statutes that state what a provider shall and shall not do. It's not black and white all scenes are dynamic and flowing and each situation presents different potential hazzards.

Click to expand...

Denial of service if a OCed handgun is present...which leads to the conclusion that a CCed handgun is not a threat.

Each situation is different and dynamic, true, yet there are lines that you may not cross without legal justification.

Cops are trained to know where that line is, for the most part. I would suggest that you talk to cops who do not hold a irrational fear of lawfully armed citizens. Cops engage armed/potentially armed citizens far more frequently that you do/will and they seems to have little issue with lawfully armed citizens in stressful situations. The facts present before them determine the actions they take on the scene.

Your irrational fears will dictate your actions regardless of the facts present before you.

Well I certainly think a med school dropout with 8 weeks training and a shinny badge with a "public servant" superiority complex SHOULD be able to have absolute control over the commoners when out performing his divine life saving ministrations... People who are armed, people who are emotional or even just people of certain races need to be restrained immediately because of "what if" and "could be" and "feel safe".
Even though your "cites" seem to be opinion pieces with hypotheticals I fully support actual laws that would allow for the fulfillment of your narcissistic superhero fantasies. ...by request.

This rant will self destruct imminently.

Your ignorant perception of risk is immaterial. It is not the purpose of natural law, COTUS or public servants to make you feel safe.

(worth saying twice)

comonsense said:

As you have the right to be armed i have the right to be safe while performing my job. Fair labor standards act, national labor relations board all address that.

Click to expand...

No, no not really.

You have a right to be an adult and decide whether or not the benefits and compensations for a particular job outweigh any associated risks and accept or decline the job based on your discretion. You don't have a "right" to just pick any job off the list, and then claim others have obligations to take actions or refrain from actions just for you to achieve some emotion or feeling of comfort while you are performing that job that you voluntarily agreed to perform.

Sounds to me like you think that because you're an EMT, society owes you something, and so if you feel better when they don't have guns around you, then dammit they ought to stay away from you with their blasted guns. Maybe, hopefully, I am wrong about this.

comonsense said:

Yes I have add

Originally yes my opinion is cc is easier than oc and the why is because of public reaction not just to handguns but (I know off topic) long guns as well (as I only own shotguns). Public reaction is how most policy decisions are reached. Normalizing the oc practice has to a educational one for the public people have to be eased into it gently. Once the general public has accepted it then more and more oc can occur. The question is how do you go about educating the public (TV commercials, TV specials, web, email, facebook, public officials species, press releases, news coverage). Just telling the general public hey I can do this deal with it isn't a very effective tool. How do we find the educational process do we go grass roots or get the nra, and all gun and ammo manufacturers to donate into the pot. It is amazing what people will agree to and accept as normal if they are eased into it and charmed into it (see Bill Clinton).

Click to expand...

You continue to ask how to educate the public and I will once again point you to post #4.... your answer was given to you right at the beginning of this discussion. Others have also given the same answer and the fact that you ignore it leads me to believe that what you want is what YOU consider to be an acceptable way to educate the public.

You mentioned you have shotguns... well.... about educating the public.........

A very important case started because one young man openly carried a shotgun into a Lansing Mi. library. That started a manure storm and other open carriers from Michigan Open Carry (carrying holstered pistols) got involved so the library, being what is called a legal "authority", decided it could make a no guns rule and because the police refused to arrest people for engaging in the legal activity of open carrying the library itself could require it's no guns rule be enforced so the library petitioned the circuit court for an injunction against open carry.... and got it.

But then came the appeal to that circuit court decision and the appeals court said that the Michigan legislature occupies the entire field of gun law and that an "authority" (like a library authority, a transit authority, a downtown development authority) does NOT have the power to make rules more strict than existing State law.

Well... the library took that to Michigan's Supreme Court and the Supreme Court refused to hear the case effectively upholding the Appeals Court decision.

But what does the outcome mean?

It means State law trumps any gun rules made by "authorities" throughout the entire State. And here is the kicker...

The media, thinking it had a fantastically emotionally sensational story to run with, ended up educating the entire State that open carry, even of a long gun, was legal............. all because one young man had the stones to do exactly what you are afraid of... to do exactly what you don't like to see. And that was to be ... in your face.. about the right to bear arms.

How does the public get educated about the right to bear arms? By people actually bearing arms. Not by hiding the gun with concealed carry and writing letters to politicians that are used for toilet paper.... but by getting off our arses and actually legally carrying our sidearms right there in your face.

Oh yes... and then there is the link to information about the CADL case:

http://www.michiganopencarry.org/cadl

I think this thread in general discussion is getting more and more relevant to the discussion we're facing here.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?130754-Vindictive-Protectiveness

It has been suspected by numerous members from the beginning that this is little more than an old fashioned trolling. It is hard not to reach that conclusion. For the benefit of the doubt, though, we continue... Please see the thread I linked and consider whether part or all of that might be relevant to you and your current views.

comonsense said:

Just like police (mostly highway patrol) in multiple states have arrested firefighters working an active crash scene for not moving their rescue since that was interfering with their ability to flow traffic.

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I happen to be a fire/EMS professional in Ohio, 33 + years. State law says, we, not the PD, are in charge of a crash scene when we are called there. If there's no fire/medical/hazmat issues we give the cops control, and leave. In my time only once did a local cop try to usurp that, and he was told that the big red engine was going to drive over the top of his little white cruiser if he didn't stop carping about re-opening the highway. Harsh calls were later exchanged between the police and fire chiefs. Since I'd been the one who mentioned flattening the police car, I went to the Safety Director (boss of both chiefs) with that section of the Ohio Revised Code in hand.

That was twenty plus years back, and neither agency has forgotten the incident, especially the final outcome...patrolman and police chief got their *** **** slapped by the SD.

Sorry, a drift, but then it's more to the point than the OP's contributions here.