PistolPackingMomma
Regular Member
Aw, did the OP take his CC ball and go home?
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A question to be posed.
- Thread starter comonsense
- Start date
Liberty-or-Death
Regular Member
Lock it if it's pointless to continue.
Phoenix David
Regular Member
If I happen to see you and it's a known fact that most child molesters are males I have to assume for the safety of myself and my family that your intentions are to grab and rape my child, I can't take the chance that you just might happen to be walking to the store.
See how stupid that sounds.
**late to the party**
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color of law
Accomplished Advocate
In some circles logic is not permitted.
Circular logic:
"The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true."
".....the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade. Other ways to express this are that there is no reason to accept the premises unless one already believes the conclusion....."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
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color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Nobody can say the point on your pencil isn't sharp.....
JoeSparky
Centurion
But, some pencil points are sharper than others! LOL:banana:
drsysadmin
Regular Member
While I know the OP is unable to respond at this time, he/she can still read, become educated and consider distinct legal points that may clarify where they are (legally speaking) - in error.
@OP - there are 3 points you should consider carefully. While the first SHOULD be all you need, it is apparent that it has not convinced you as yet which is why I add the others.
1) 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution (emphasis added)
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
- See more at: http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment2.html#sthash.E29rq7yk.dpuf
Now - by choosing to insist that others disarm or are removed from a public location (or their own private property) for your comfort is before you perform your job - under any reasonable definition - an INFRINGEMENT of that person's right. While I question the rationality of your fear of an openly armed citizenry, for now I will concede that you have such a fear. That being said - what legal basis can you cite that outweighs the 2A in that your personal fear is allowed to supersede the enumerated rights of citizens? Legally speaking - there are none. Therefore your insistence is a violation of the Constitutional rights of others.
2) Duty to provide Care
Take a minute to read the following:
http://injury.findlaw.com/medical-malpractice/what-is-actionable-medical-malpractice.html
Here is the relevant section -
By choosing to pursue your EMT career and by arriving on-scene you have "voluntarily come to the aid" of the person who needs medical assistance. Thus you meet the legal requirements and now "owe a duty of care" to the person who needs it. Failure to provide that care opens you to both a medical malpractice suit as well as termination (just look at the case of Anne Marie Thomas of Michigan - http://wreg.com/2015/06/26/emt-fired-after-she-refused-to-help-baby-in-distress/). While it is your choice, choices have repercussions.
Since you offered a number of cites, let me point out the FLAW in them. While they were quite informative, they focused on operational properties (which do not shield you from legal responsibilities) as well as so called "best practices". "Best practices" are exactly that - BEST practices. Not just really good ones. Medical professionals use less than the "best" every day. Sometimes its because the "best" hasn't filtered down to that facility or entity. Sometimes there is no logistical ability to follow BP's. Ever done a mass casualty drill? Ever "run out" of latex gloves and had to substitute - using field expedient items like plastic wrap to create a barrier? While you may wish to rationalize your position, it has no ethical or legal foundation and opens you (and your municipality) to significant legal and fiscal repercussions should you choose to refuse treatment.
3) You indicate you would have a concern should you be at a scene with a person openly carrying. Thus you ask if CC would be better. This is a question that - in various forms - comes up repeatedly. Did you happen to see the main opencarry.org page, by chance? Did you notice the quotes by at least 3 police chiefs indicating that open carry is significantly SAFER for public servants than CC? You stated that shooters often hang around to make sure the "target" is deceased. So would you rather see the guy with a gun - or be treating a gunshot victim with someone hiding in the crowd with a concealed gun just waiting to see if you are going to save that victim - and if it looks like you are - is going to make sure you can't - likely by shooting you. Would you rather know the threat is there - or hide your head in the sand and pretend what you can't see doesn't exist? As has been pointed out - criminals don't usually carry firearms openly. So what you are asking has been answered - by the very types of leaders in LE that show you that your supposition is incorrect.
Think on it. Then start paying attention to post #4 that shows how reasonable, rational and law abiding citizens can and have changed the public perspective.
@OP - there are 3 points you should consider carefully. While the first SHOULD be all you need, it is apparent that it has not convinced you as yet which is why I add the others.
1) 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution (emphasis added)
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
- See more at: http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment2.html#sthash.E29rq7yk.dpuf
Now - by choosing to insist that others disarm or are removed from a public location (or their own private property) for your comfort is before you perform your job - under any reasonable definition - an INFRINGEMENT of that person's right. While I question the rationality of your fear of an openly armed citizenry, for now I will concede that you have such a fear. That being said - what legal basis can you cite that outweighs the 2A in that your personal fear is allowed to supersede the enumerated rights of citizens? Legally speaking - there are none. Therefore your insistence is a violation of the Constitutional rights of others.
2) Duty to provide Care
Take a minute to read the following:
http://injury.findlaw.com/medical-malpractice/what-is-actionable-medical-malpractice.html
Here is the relevant section -
By choosing to pursue your EMT career and by arriving on-scene you have "voluntarily come to the aid" of the person who needs medical assistance. Thus you meet the legal requirements and now "owe a duty of care" to the person who needs it. Failure to provide that care opens you to both a medical malpractice suit as well as termination (just look at the case of Anne Marie Thomas of Michigan - http://wreg.com/2015/06/26/emt-fired-after-she-refused-to-help-baby-in-distress/). While it is your choice, choices have repercussions.
Since you offered a number of cites, let me point out the FLAW in them. While they were quite informative, they focused on operational properties (which do not shield you from legal responsibilities) as well as so called "best practices". "Best practices" are exactly that - BEST practices. Not just really good ones. Medical professionals use less than the "best" every day. Sometimes its because the "best" hasn't filtered down to that facility or entity. Sometimes there is no logistical ability to follow BP's. Ever done a mass casualty drill? Ever "run out" of latex gloves and had to substitute - using field expedient items like plastic wrap to create a barrier? While you may wish to rationalize your position, it has no ethical or legal foundation and opens you (and your municipality) to significant legal and fiscal repercussions should you choose to refuse treatment.
3) You indicate you would have a concern should you be at a scene with a person openly carrying. Thus you ask if CC would be better. This is a question that - in various forms - comes up repeatedly. Did you happen to see the main opencarry.org page, by chance? Did you notice the quotes by at least 3 police chiefs indicating that open carry is significantly SAFER for public servants than CC? You stated that shooters often hang around to make sure the "target" is deceased. So would you rather see the guy with a gun - or be treating a gunshot victim with someone hiding in the crowd with a concealed gun just waiting to see if you are going to save that victim - and if it looks like you are - is going to make sure you can't - likely by shooting you. Would you rather know the threat is there - or hide your head in the sand and pretend what you can't see doesn't exist? As has been pointed out - criminals don't usually carry firearms openly. So what you are asking has been answered - by the very types of leaders in LE that show you that your supposition is incorrect.
Think on it. Then start paying attention to post #4 that shows how reasonable, rational and law abiding citizens can and have changed the public perspective.
After reading several pages, I feel this thread is a waste of every participants time, but I guess I will join the fray and waste some too.
OP's comment on LGOC is outside fo forum rules, but in contrast to the rules myself I will address it, LGOC did have an exception for TEXAS due to that being the only legal means of OC'ing for a long time. they have since developed laws allowing for handgun OC, your sight with people fleeing for LGOC is void due to such. also, I have seen plenty of video, and pictures, most weapons where slung over the shoulder, very few where worn, military style, in the front. i also fail to see how it applies, as handgun OC is the primary carry.
your "a shooter will remain to make sure the target is dead" argument is also ridiculous, I can't think of one person who committed a crime wanting to stick around to be arrested for it. they may RETURN to the scene later, but usually right after it has been committed they have fled.
you cite the murders of EMT personell as a reason why you should fear an OC'er, this is irrational, and childish on many degrees, YOU CHOSE YOUR PROFESSION, and that includes ALL the dangers associated with it, if you don't like those potential dangers, quit and get into a new line of work, your a big boy, time to put your big boy pants on.
you also contradict yourself by stating you'd prefer CC... really? an irrationally emotional person with CC is MORE LIEKLY to actually SHOOT YOU with LE's around because he is CC'ing and no one knows he has it, element of surprise you might say.
how do you normalize OC? I dunno, how about making it normal in your own daily life by carrying one yourself when off duty, or if allowed while on duty, although your mental state of health does make me question if such an idea should be proposed to you. otherwise, let other LAC's OC their own and let them do the heavy lifting of normalization for you, by engaging in dialogue with concerned people, by letting them present the facts about response time from law enforcement agencies, about the laws regulating such practices, and about how security for oneself is' one's OWN responsibility, not law enforcements, or anyone else's ( as defined by the SCOTUS, who said officers have no obligation to protect any individual, including you when performing your job).
you state, "what about when protocol says to terminate care?" what about it? your not a mobile hospital, why didn't you transport the person to one? I am fairly sure a hospital will have more resources and tools to address the problem then you do in a 7'by 10' box on wheels. of course there is also situations where the person is obviously dead, like a head shot, or some other such obvious thing. frankly, if you where to terminate because you "feel" they arent' going to make it, i'd probably tell you to get the hell off my property and out of my way, sutures can be done by anyone willing to practice, burning hot embers are good for wound cauterization, and 12 year old scotch, or everclear is good for wound flushing, and sucking wounds need 3 sided bandages.
and I'm sure I can find military field treatment for collapsing lungs, cardiac arrest, choking from lodged item, ect ect, online. frankly, the only thing is no pain killers, or ability for blood transfusions, or use of Saline packs.
you seem to be a rather weak minded person in all the aspects that count in regards to critical thinking with logic and facts, rather then emotional based feelings. ( therefore illogical and irrational)
you have had your questions answered many times already yet you refuse to accept them and apply them. as a result, we keep going around in a pervasive circle. I have now said my piece and am done, I will not post in this thread again in response to the OP, after his voluntary timeout has worn off, if he wants to continue the regurgitated dialogue.
OP's comment on LGOC is outside fo forum rules, but in contrast to the rules myself I will address it, LGOC did have an exception for TEXAS due to that being the only legal means of OC'ing for a long time. they have since developed laws allowing for handgun OC, your sight with people fleeing for LGOC is void due to such. also, I have seen plenty of video, and pictures, most weapons where slung over the shoulder, very few where worn, military style, in the front. i also fail to see how it applies, as handgun OC is the primary carry.
your "a shooter will remain to make sure the target is dead" argument is also ridiculous, I can't think of one person who committed a crime wanting to stick around to be arrested for it. they may RETURN to the scene later, but usually right after it has been committed they have fled.
you cite the murders of EMT personell as a reason why you should fear an OC'er, this is irrational, and childish on many degrees, YOU CHOSE YOUR PROFESSION, and that includes ALL the dangers associated with it, if you don't like those potential dangers, quit and get into a new line of work, your a big boy, time to put your big boy pants on.
you also contradict yourself by stating you'd prefer CC... really? an irrationally emotional person with CC is MORE LIEKLY to actually SHOOT YOU with LE's around because he is CC'ing and no one knows he has it, element of surprise you might say.
how do you normalize OC? I dunno, how about making it normal in your own daily life by carrying one yourself when off duty, or if allowed while on duty, although your mental state of health does make me question if such an idea should be proposed to you. otherwise, let other LAC's OC their own and let them do the heavy lifting of normalization for you, by engaging in dialogue with concerned people, by letting them present the facts about response time from law enforcement agencies, about the laws regulating such practices, and about how security for oneself is' one's OWN responsibility, not law enforcements, or anyone else's ( as defined by the SCOTUS, who said officers have no obligation to protect any individual, including you when performing your job).
you state, "what about when protocol says to terminate care?" what about it? your not a mobile hospital, why didn't you transport the person to one? I am fairly sure a hospital will have more resources and tools to address the problem then you do in a 7'by 10' box on wheels. of course there is also situations where the person is obviously dead, like a head shot, or some other such obvious thing. frankly, if you where to terminate because you "feel" they arent' going to make it, i'd probably tell you to get the hell off my property and out of my way, sutures can be done by anyone willing to practice, burning hot embers are good for wound cauterization, and 12 year old scotch, or everclear is good for wound flushing, and sucking wounds need 3 sided bandages.
and I'm sure I can find military field treatment for collapsing lungs, cardiac arrest, choking from lodged item, ect ect, online. frankly, the only thing is no pain killers, or ability for blood transfusions, or use of Saline packs.
you seem to be a rather weak minded person in all the aspects that count in regards to critical thinking with logic and facts, rather then emotional based feelings. ( therefore illogical and irrational)
you have had your questions answered many times already yet you refuse to accept them and apply them. as a result, we keep going around in a pervasive circle. I have now said my piece and am done, I will not post in this thread again in response to the OP, after his voluntary timeout has worn off, if he wants to continue the regurgitated dialogue.
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Ezek, can you be a little more specific in your thoughts?
A week ago I was at the deli counter of a local grocery store. This particular store is closing. In discussing the closing a man joined in the conversation and commented in not taking his business to Kroger. I asked why. When I asked the question his wife walked up. She heard the question and answered that Kroger allows people the carry guns. She informed me that her and her husband are very active in "Moms Demand Action." When she said that I turned and pointed to my openly carried firearm.
You could see the panic set in. With anxiety in her voice she asked, do you have a permit? I said if you mean a conceal carry license, yes I do, but I don't need one to open carry. You could feel her anxiety melt away. She declared I had training and spent hours at a gun range. And everything was right with the world.
She even wanted a picture of her with me so she could show the other ladies. She had herself convinced that having a license makes a person responsible. And there was a way to keep guns out of bad peoples hands.
I quickly moved on. I wanted to point them to the Kool-aid aisle.
A week ago I was at the deli counter of a local grocery store. This particular store is closing. In discussing the closing a man joined in the conversation and commented in not taking his business to Kroger. I asked why. When I asked the question his wife walked up. She heard the question and answered that Kroger allows people the carry guns. She informed me that her and her husband are very active in "Moms Demand Action." When she said that I turned and pointed to my openly carried firearm.
You could see the panic set in. With anxiety in her voice she asked, do you have a permit? I said if you mean a conceal carry license, yes I do, but I don't need one to open carry. You could feel her anxiety melt away. She declared I had training and spent hours at a gun range. And everything was right with the world. She even wanted a picture of her with me so she could show the other ladies. She had herself convinced that having a license makes a person responsible. And there was a way to keep guns out of bad peoples hands.
I quickly moved on. I wanted to point them to the Kool-aid aisle.
Werz
Regular Member
When carrying openly in commercial establishments, I always try to show timid people a personality they don't expect. It never hurts to show people that my handgun is like my wallet, my watch, and my mobile telephone: it's one of the things I carry, but it doesn't define me.A week ago I was at the deli counter of a local grocery store. This particular store is closing. In discussing the closing a man joined in the conversation and commented in not taking his business to Kroger. I asked why. When I asked the question his wife walked up. She heard the question and answered that Kroger allows people the carry guns. She informed me that her and her husband are very active in "Moms Demand Action." When she said that I turned and pointed to my openly carried firearm.
She even wanted a picture of her with me so she could show the other ladies. She had herself convinced that having a license makes a person responsible. And there was a way to keep guns out of bad peoples hands.
I quickly moved on. I wanted to point them to the Kool-aid aisle.
It does add to the definition though. See your signature line.
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Once she convinced herself that I was a good person she felt she needed to educate me in all the "Moms Demand Action" fictional statistics. It was obvious there was no convincing her of anything. Understanding her mindset, a smile and bidding her a good day was the smart option.
Ezek, can you be a little more specific in your thoughts?
A week ago I was at the deli counter of a local grocery store. This particular store is closing. In discussing the closing a man joined in the conversation and commented in not taking his business to Kroger. I asked why. When I asked the question his wife walked up. She heard the question and answered that Kroger allows people the carry guns. She informed me that her and her husband are very active in "Moms Demand Action." When she said that I turned and pointed to my openly carried firearm.
She even wanted a picture of her with me so she could show the other ladies. She had herself convinced that having a license makes a person responsible. And there was a way to keep guns out of bad peoples hands.
I quickly moved on. I wanted to point them to the Kool-aid aisle.
i guess to address you question or specifics, i should clarify, i mean a person CCing is a person who no one knows he has it, if it is well concealed, as a result, the OP pretty much states he would administer care so long as he didn't SEE a firearm, he doesn't address the actually physical presence of a firearm. with LEO's allowing said CC'er to remain in the perimeter of the care patient cause no weapon was "seen"
he also says what about an open carrier who is related to the patient, when they have to terminate based on protocol. his emotional state and irrationalism could lead to him firing at the EMT's. so he requests them to be removed from the area a CC'er wouldn't have been removed, and no one would know he had it, and is just as susceptible to irrational emotion as an OC'er, but unlike the OC'er no one knows he has one, giving him the element of "surprise".
IE just cause he is CC and you don't see it doesn't mean your not in danger of knee jerk emotional reaction cause said CC'er is still human and prone to irrational emotion. a permit means nothing in that regard.
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Agree, taking a test and passing it has no relation to the application. Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. (Don't take that statement out of context.) In 2008 I had a mild heart attack at home. I called 911 myself. I also left my firearm in the house and met EMT on the front porch. I did not want the gun to become an issue. In 2008 people were really, really paranoid about guns.
3FULLMAGS+1
Regular Member
COL said:
A week ago I was at the deli counter of a local grocery store. This particular store is closing. In discussing the closing a man joined in the conversation and commented in not taking his business to Kroger. I asked why. When I asked the question his wife walked up. She heard the question and answered that Kroger allows people the carry guns. She informed me that her and her husband are very active in "Moms Demand Action." When she said that I turned and pointed to my openly carried firearm. You could see the panic set in. With anxiety in her voice she asked, do you have a permit? I said if you mean a conceal carry license, yes I do, but I don't need one to open carry. You could feel her anxiety melt away. She declared I had training and spent hours at a gun range. And everything was right with the world.
She even wanted a picture of her with me so she could show the other ladies. She had herself convinced that having a license makes a person responsible. And there was a way to keep guns out of bad peoples hands.
I quickly moved on. I wanted to point them to the Kool-aid aisle.
I understand why you "......quickly moved on", but I would have probably had a "little" more fun w/her than you did and I suspect her and her hubby has been to the Kool-Aid aisle many times before.
A week ago I was at the deli counter of a local grocery store. This particular store is closing. In discussing the closing a man joined in the conversation and commented in not taking his business to Kroger. I asked why. When I asked the question his wife walked up. She heard the question and answered that Kroger allows people the carry guns. She informed me that her and her husband are very active in "Moms Demand Action." When she said that I turned and pointed to my openly carried firearm. You could see the panic set in. With anxiety in her voice she asked, do you have a permit? I said if you mean a conceal carry license, yes I do, but I don't need one to open carry. You could feel her anxiety melt away. She declared I had training and spent hours at a gun range. And everything was right with the world.
She even wanted a picture of her with me so she could show the other ladies. She had herself convinced that having a license makes a person responsible. And there was a way to keep guns out of bad peoples hands.
I quickly moved on. I wanted to point them to the Kool-aid aisle.
I understand why you "......quickly moved on", but I would have probably had a "little" more fun w/her than you did and I suspect her and her hubby has been to the Kool-Aid aisle many times before.