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Umpqua College

JustJack

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2013
Messages
82
Location
Findlay, Ohio, United States
A buddy of mine listened to the 911 chatter. 8 minutes from time of first call to first officer on scene and all security is unarmed. When seconds count, help is only minutes away.:banghead:
 

Boomboy007

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
195
Location
Bellingham, WA, USA
Well, for me, this says it all:

"Speaking to reporters late Thursday, college President Rita Calvin said the attack on her campus was both a “tragedy and an anomaly.”

"The campus employs at least one security officer, and several faculty members are retired law enforcement personnel, according to school officials. But none of them are allowed to be armed, she said.

“We have a no-guns-on-campus policy,” Calvin said."

And how is that working out? Just ONE armed teacher or student could have changed this. A few open carriers, and this scumbag would have chosen a softer target.
 

OC for ME

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Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,376
Location
White Oak Plantation
Looks like assault by LEO.

Could result in nerve damage.

I hope it results in a massive lawsuit.
The cops will be determined to have acted as reasonably to ensure public safety and themselves. It is very likely that no citizen subjected to the efforts of LE will pursue a redress of wrongs. The Aurora CO Constitutional Suspension Event and the Watertown MA Constitutional Suspension Event are to be referred to.

In the Aurora Constitutional Suspension Event a black man was removed from his vehicle when the cops were explicitly searching for a white man. The ~30 citizens were detained for over two hours. A judge ruled that the APD acted properly. In Watertown it remains to be seen if any civil action will be initiated. Very unlikely given the claimed exigency by LE.
 

randian

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Mar 10, 2011
Messages
375
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Looks likely to be a Muslim shooter. Asking religion then selectively shooting is a classic jihad tactic, very common in Africa and the Middle East.
 

utbagpiper

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Jul 5, 2006
Messages
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Utah
The cops will be determined to have acted as reasonably to ensure public safety and themselves. It is very likely that no citizen subjected to the efforts of LE will pursue a redress of wrongs.
This is the key element.

Whatever we here may think of the police methods, I suspect that most everyone in a mass shooting situation thinks a little differently. Consider on the mentality of the unarmed, defenseless person who finds himself in such a situation. If he is lucky he is somewhat removed and his hiding somewhere, hoping and praying the criminal doesn't find him. Maybe he is closer and actually watching his classmates get killed.

Eight minutes seem like an eternity.....and they become one for those who don't survive.

But finally the saviors with badges and guns show up and the shooting stops. Shocked, dazed, terrified, but grateful, the rescuers start clearing buildings and calling for the would-be victims to head to safety. On the way, a minor inconvenience, everyone gets patted down and bags searched, just to keep everyone safe.

I'm no shrink, but I'd bet that from the perspective of most every one of the potential victims involved, the police conduct in those photos is not very clearly remembered the next day but becomes just a part of the haze of a horrible, but real nightmare. To the extent it is remembered, it is a bit like when a paramedic starts an IV before you can be pulled from the tangled wreckage of your car. The needle stick isn't pleasant, but comparison to what has just happened, is barely noticed; and in context, is seen as being a necessary and even good thing.

To be clear, nothing in my above musing should be taken as suggesting any position on my part relative to the police methods in this situation. I'm just trying to get into the heads of those who are in the photo.

One of the great things about owning and carrying a gun is the change in mindset it fosters, even requires. I think that much of the most intelligent and informed opposition to our RKBA (not the useful idiot opposition, but the opposition from the select few who really understand how things work) is based less on any actual use of the guns, and a lot more on the change in mindset that gun ownership fosters. There is a marked difference between being wholly dependent on government, and viewing government as a limited agent. I think it is much the same reason the truly informed dislike rural and even low-density suburban living. High density urban housing significantly reduces the ability to be or feel self-reliant.

Whatever the constitution may say, most folks don't get too uptight when they have just been saved from what they believe is near certain death. It is a rare breed who is able to keep his wits enough to even know he has been abused by his rescuers.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Utah
Looks likely to be a Muslim shooter. Asking religion then selectively shooting is a classic jihad tactic, very common in Africa and the Middle East.
The NY Post article suggests an atheist/agnostic instead.

"Chris Harper-Mercer’s disdain for religion was evident in an online profile, in which he became a member of a “doesn’t like organized religion” group on an Internet dating site."

Charles
 

OC for ME

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Messages
12,376
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White Oak Plantation
This is the key element. ...
The photos are there for all to see. LE will get a pass because the situation deserved the violation of a citizen's rights. If we consider ourselves reasonable men, and what we know of LE actions from prior incidents, the severity of the situation is to be of no consequence to LE.

Either we have a 4A or we do not.

In the Aurora Constitutional Suspension Event a black man was removed from his vehicle when the cops were explicitly searching for a white man. The ~30 citizens were detained for over two hours. A judge ruled that the APD acted properly.
Again, a black man, and the courts found the cops acted appropriately due to the circumstances.

Some will point to the severity of the abuses and claim them to be nothing more than a mere inconvenience. Where is the line to be drawn and who draws it? We already know from past experiences the state cannot be relied upon to apply the same standard to very very similar situations.

A reasonable man test is meaningless post Terry v. Ohio.

It is very likely that no citizen subjected to the efforts of LE will pursue a redress of wrongs.
 

solus

Regular Member
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Aug 22, 2013
Messages
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here nc
quote: Investigators are poring over what one official described as “hateful” writings by Mr. Mercer, who was described by people who encountered him as awkward, socially isolated and even mentally disturbed. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/03/us/oregon-shooting-umpqua-chris-harper-mercer.html?_r=1

wow, didn't know there were that many mental heath caregivers who would have run into this individual and yet not taken steps to get the young man some kind of assistance or treatment...(sarcastic - i think)

now the stage is set to further strengthen mental health criteria, real or perceived, into the purchase of a firearm, private & retail based on hearsay hyperbole.

ipse
 

utbagpiper

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Utah
The photos are there for all to see. LE will get a pass because the situation deserved the violation of a citizen's rights.
Only partly because of that.

It is very likely that no citizen subjected to the efforts of LE will pursue a redress of wrongs.
Largely because of this.

I doubt you or I have any standing to sue on behalf of anyone's whose rights were violated by the cops yesterday at Umpqua College.

But I do concede, that LE will get a pass also because most people believe the situation required the methods employed, nobody actually hurt, etc. My heavens, getting a lot of folks to even concede this might be a violation of rights would be a huge step in the right direction, would it not?

But I must be careful lest anyone accuse me of holding my fellow man in disdain. Holding the government officials they elect--or just "the government"--in contempt is fair game it seems. Heaven forbid we actually place some responsibility on the voters themselves.

Either we have a 4A or we do not.
Oh we have 4th Amendment rights. The question is, what exactly are those rights?

Let us remember that the 4th amendment is supposed to protect what it says it protects, not necessarily what we (or the courts) think it says or think it should say. What the courts think will carry far more weight than what you or I think. But ultimately, what does it mean to be free from "unreasonable search and seizure"?

What searches and seizures are "reasonable" given the full context of the amendment and the rest of the constitution, as well as the intent of the authors/ratifiers?

Or, as others would prefer, what does the "living" 4th amendment protect today, in any given case?

Again, a black man, and the courts found the cops acted appropriately due to the circumstances.
Would "the courts" you refer to be the same august bodies that have at various times found that black men are not citizens, that government enforced segregation is ok so long as facilities are "equal", and that an unborn baby isn't a person entitled to the most basic of all rights, the right to life itself?

Well color me shocked that such an earthly and fallible institution got it wrong in another mundane--if entirely obvious--case.

What exactly is your point? That we need to rein in the courts somehow? Somehow keep up the good fight for dangerous liberty over safe tyranny?

I agree completely.


Some will point to the severity of the abuses and claim them to be nothing more than a mere inconvenience. Where is the line to be drawn and who draws it? We already know from past experiences the state cannot be relied upon to apply the same standard to very very similar situations.

A reasonable man test is meaningless post Terry v. Ohio.
I all ears for proposed solutions.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Jul 5, 2006
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Utah
“[He started] asking people one by one what their religion was. ‘Are you a Christian?’ he would ask them, and if you’re a Christian stand up.
If anyone sees so much as a single media outlet referring to this as a hate-crime, or quoting any government official as referring to this as a hate-crime, or even quoting anyone (who isn't portrayed as a complete wingnut) referring to this as a hate-crime, please let me know. A PM is fine if you'd rather not post in the open forum for whatever reason.

I suspect the targeting of Christians will not get any additional play, and these crimes will be "gun crimes" rather than anti-religious bigotry hate-crimes, so far as all reporting and official government reports go.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,912
Location
North Carolina
I think a lot of people have forgot the Oklahoma City bombing. As far as I know the mentally ill can still buy fertilizer. Laws cannot stop the deranged, they will find a way, and sometimes a much more devastating way.

But all the claims from Obama that he does not want to ban guns, his model countries he uses as examples have banned guns. In the case of Britain, and Australia the violence got worse, not better.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,675
Location
here nc
can we write in the OR Gov name on the ballot when we vote next year for president??

ipse
 
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