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St. Louis Zoo: communication log + TRO filing/status + legal/financial help needed

deepdiver

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
5,831
Location
Southeast, Missouri, USA
There are glaring problems with the Order. The Order boils down to the zoo is a school so you can't carry there. But she says that's ok because you can carry in the parking lots and up to the gate to use the lock boxes, in other words in the non-gated areas of Zoo property. Except you can't. (emphasis mine):

Firstly, since she rules the Zoo is a school the firearm can't leave the vehicle to carry it to the lockboxes:

"571.107. 1. A concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, a valid concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state. No concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, valid concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:

(10) Any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of the governing body of the higher education institution or a school official or the district school board, unless the person with the concealed carry endorsement or permit is a teacher or administrator of an elementary or secondary school who has been designated by his or her school district as a school protection officer and is carrying a firearm in a school within that district, in which case no consent is required. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises; "

And secondly, you can't even have it in the parking lot or on the sidewalks or any other part of the 90 acre "campus", gated and fenced or not, the limits and boundaries of which are NOT in any way delineated such that any law abiding citizen could readily determine the boundaries of same:
"It is hereby ordered, adjudged and decreed as follows: Defendant.. and anyone.. who has knowledge of this Order, is hereby restrained and enjoined, until further order of the Court, from entering upon Saint Louis Zoo property in possession of a firearmor any other weapon capable of lethal use, regardless of whether such weapon is possessed openly or concealed."

This final Order and the above matters contradict her earlier justification that "a preliminary injunction will not adversely impact the ability of Mr. Smith (or anyone else) to visit and enjoy the zoo; rather, they merely cannot carry guns with them while on the Zoo's gated grounds." ALL of that is totally irrelevant since her final order bans any firearms anywhere on any portion of any Zoo property, not just within the gated areas.

It is absolutely impossible for citizens, without specialized knowledge and researching of land records, to determine the boundaries of the property to which the Order applies. The St. Louis City Assessor maps do NOT show the parcel boundaries of the Zoo property itself, just showing Forest Park as one big area. And the order applies to every inch the Zoo owns so it would be quite easy for someone to violate the Order generally or be carrying on the premises of "the elementary and/or secondary "school facility" within the meaning of this part of the statute" as the Order reads thinking they are just in Forest Park generally and not aware that they are actually on Zoo property.

So in this matter, the justification of "The Court notes a preliminary injunction will not adversely impact the ability of Mr. Smith (or anyone else) to visit and enjoy the zoo; rather, they merely cannot carry guns with them while on the Zoo's gated grounds." is completely wrong and contradicted in several ways by the entirety of the Order.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,170
Location
earth's crust
A record request response(s) generally are admissible as evidence but it is not discovery ~ and them ignoring the request? The court has not authority over that in all likelihood. Don't be surprised that they ignore the request via a open records request.

One can order a partial transcript too ... so review your audio recording of the proceeding to ID what parts you want -- maybe just a few pages are needed?

Good luck !
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,020
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
** Contributions received - status **

I just received copies of contributions received from Ms. Hogan. She's been quite busy with other matters, including working from home, and hasn't gotten her mail as regularly as usual. Her delay has become mine.

I'm rushing to leave town (on a non-Zoo matter), so I'll personally thank those who have contributed when I get back, as well as give a status report.

Thanks for everyone's understanding, and thank you very much for the contributions sent.
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,020
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
** case delay **

Depositions scheduled for June 14 & 15 have been delayed until this August. :( :(

I'm working on a write-up which Ms. Hogan will approve before I post it.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,336
Location
Valhalla
Depositions scheduled for June 14 & 15 have been delayed until this August. :( :(

I'm working on a write-up which Ms. Hogan will approve before I post it.
Don't let them wear you out - plenty of time left on the clock.

IMO - they are just delaying the inevitable.
 

Ezek

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
411
Location
missouri
A million guys using their gun as a hammer effects a right ? How so?

Rhetorical query. Because it doesn't have any effect.

Don't debate antis on this garbage ....
I think you missed the main objective point, that happening didn't help us one iota in the courtroom, as i'm sure the judge caught wind of it. it also fuels the antis for their "feel good" security, rather than actual security.
 

deepdiver

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
5,831
Location
Southeast, Missouri, USA
I think you missed the main objective point, that happening didn't help us one iota in the courtroom, as i'm sure the judge caught wind of it. it also fuels the antis for their "feel good" security, rather than actual security.
There certainly is the valid point that when say, a terrorist, does something evil and hurts/kills a bunch of people many people start clamoring that all ____ people who are like that person aren't like that evil person immediately followed by claiming that all gun owners are ______ because that one guy used a gun to do something evil. The urge among certain segments to always over-generalize something a gun owner does to all gun owners is problematic in many ways and very frustrating.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,336
Location
Valhalla
I’m sorry for the long, long delay in posting a status update. As much as I would like to go into great detail, I simply can’t, and I’m afraid I may have to further curtail my comments.
See new, separate thread for BB62's "Case Status Update and urgent request for funds:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?133743-Case-status-update-request-for-funds

Presuming that a satisfactory influx of funds is derived, the two threads may be merged at some time in the future.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
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Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,170
Location
earth's crust
Wondering if any contact with any members of the general assembly has been contacted & the result of such contacts. Another avenue of attacking this garbage.
 

Grapeshot

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May 21, 2006
Messages
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Last edited:

davidmcbeth

Banned
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earth's crust
BB62 would probably prefer fully funding the action as presently in progress.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?133743-Case-status-update-request-for-funds

With all of the alleged civil suits initiated by Mcbeth, surely he has won a few and would leap to make such a donation.
You do not see me asking for donations for my suits. I use my winnings to support new suits. I filed one last week and I hope to file another one at the end of this week and I have another to file within 2 weeks after that. I am very busy. .govs around me are not happy.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,336
Location
Valhalla
BB62 would probably prefer fully funding the action as presently in progress.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?133743-Case-status-update-request-for-funds

With all of the alleged civil suits initiated by Mcbeth, surely he has won a few and would leap to make such a donation.
You do not see me asking for donations for my suits. I use my winnings to support new suits. I filed one last week and I hope to file another one at the end of this week and I have another to file within 2 weeks after that. I am very busy. .govs around me are not happy.
I spoke to what BB62 would likely prefer (as opposed to the suggestion that you get personally involved) and you tell us that you don't give from your piggy bank to help other people.

Tell us something that we haven't figured out.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,281
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
What is all this debate about????? BB62 would appreciate help in defending against a government agency that is attempting to violate one of our inalienable rights.

The outcome effects all of us. So, either help of get out of the way.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,170
Location
earth's crust
I spoke to what BB62 would likely prefer (as opposed to the suggestion that you get personally involved) and you tell us that you don't give from your piggy bank to help other people.

Tell us something that we haven't figured out.
I can understand that BB62 does not want me added as a party ... he wishes to control his own filed case. I have asked to be added as a party in pending civil cases before w/o consulting the original filer though but I doubt that this is an instance I would wish to be asked to be added as a party.

I don't think I offered my assistance to resolve the issues that BB62 has (in another far away land) but its nice to know that if I did it would not be welcome.

You sure are a smooth talker when asking for money Grape.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,281
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
I can understand that BB62 does not want me added as a party ... he wishes to control his own filed case. I have asked to be added as a party in pending civil cases before w/o consulting the original filer though but I doubt that this is an instance I would wish to be asked to be added as a party.

I don't think I offered my assistance to resolve the issues that BB62 has (in another far away land) but its nice to know that if I did it would not be welcome.

You sure are a smooth talker when asking for money Grape.
And what case did BB62 file? Oh, that's right BB62 didn't file any suit, the St. Louis zoo did.

Lets keep the facts straight.
 
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