Shots fired at South Haven Picnic

[CoonDog]

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mymonie wrote:

The last thing this is, is an example of removing the transportation laws. If anything, this would provide Anti-Gun types with a STRONG argument that even to carry, CC or OC - people need training.

This is anything BUT a reason to lossen any gun laws.

As I said before - for those of you that see this as a good reason to loosen the existing transportation laws for non CPL or dumb down the current CPL requirements - you are insance [SIC].

So, you're not willing to fight for increased liberty because you fear it will give others an "argument"?

Yes, by all means, go running away from those righteous Antis. I don't know what else to say except that this principle is unimpressive. Do you have another way to fight for your rights that doesn't involve taking a stand?

 

[Wglide90]

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Wally,

I'm in disagreement a bit with you on the handling of the issue. I think that if we egnore the issue it could go away until next time, maybe not. But it would be irreasponsible in the anti eyes to not address the problem head on and correct it. By awareness and better information and training.

Being devil's advocate here:

If I were an anti and saw this and saw that this group did nothing to address the issueI would have more probelms with the cause and the group.

If the group meets it head on then it is on record that this issue was brought to the forefront so it would not happen again at a group event and that the group was promoting gun safety first before anything. That would be the best scenario IMO.

Every problem must be solved with corrective actions.

 

[myusername]

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If this really was an XD, then unless it completely malfunctioned and needs a trip to SA service, the only way it fired was when the trigger was pulled, and "accidentally" pulling the trigger when theres a round in the chamber is a ND, not AD. While its true you have to disengage the grip safety in order to pull back the slide (because it interfaces with the sear in the slide) you don't have to pull the trigger. The XD has a loaded chamber indicator that was obviously ignored, once I rack the slide after dropping a mag to unload I always feel the indicator, and do a press check to verify the chamber is empty. At that point I suppose it would be safe to pull the trigger to release the striker, but it certainly is unneccesary. It certainly is not the fault of the gun, most modern pistols will fire when you pull the trigger, its kinda funny how that works.

Keep your booger picker off the boom switch and this won't happen. Its about knowing your gun, how it operates, and how to safely handle it. Unless you have that knowlege, and extensive practice you have no business carrying open or concealed in public. Is it legal? yes, but so are a bunch of other foolish things.

 

[Michigander]

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wally1120 wrote:

I understand it is a safety precaution but,the longer we talk about it the more the antis read about it as well.

There is no good reason to make this a political thing, or to try to sweep it under the rug and hope people just forget about it. Even if that would work, which I don't think it would, it's much too important of a subject to do that.

You don't get more serious than talking about gun safety. Gun safety practices are immeasurably more important than getting smeared by the media or being made fun of by anti gun people. A gun can kill instantly or cause terrible injuries, or if you're very lucky simply cause charges to be pressed. TV broadcasts and newspapers can't do that. Priorities need to be kept straight.

By the way, just so it's clear, I am not trying to insult the gentleman that had the ND. What happened happened, there is nothing that can be done about it. I appreciate his enthusiasm and support for OCing. I wish him the best of luck cleaning this mess up, and I hope that he'll continue along with us, sharing his story with others as a warning, similar to what I do with the story of my CZ.

 

[mymonie]

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CoonDog wrote:

mymonie wrote:

The last thing this is, is an example of removing the transportation laws. If anything, this would provide Anti-Gun types with a STRONG argument that even to carry, CC or OC - people need training.

This is anything BUT a reason to lossen any gun laws.

As I said before - for those of you that see this as a good reason to loosen the existing transportation laws for non CPL or dumb down the current CPL requirements - you are insance [SIC].

So, you're not willing to fight for increased liberty because you fear it will give others an "argument"?

Yes, by all means, go running away from those righteous Antis. I don't know what else to say except that this principle is unimpressive. Do you have another way to fight for your rights that doesn't involve taking a stand?

I'll take a stand, but I'm not going to defend something as stupid as this. How can you?

Several people on this board have indicated that what happened, was because this person had to unload since he didn't have CPL for transportation.And thereforethat's a good example of why there shouldn't be transport restrictionsfor Non-CPL.

Does that seem logical to you?

That's not why this happened. This happened because some dude doesn't know gun saftey.

This web site promotes OC. OC does not require any training or permit. Many people OC without a CPL. We have a responsbility, FOR OUR OWN GOOD, to make sure that people that do not have a CPL and elect to OC are well trained in handling a firearm.

 

[Taurus850CIA]

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mymonie wrote:

CoonDog wrote:

mymonie wrote:

The last thing this is, is an example of removing the transportation laws. If anything, this would provide Anti-Gun types with a STRONG argument that even to carry, CC or OC - people need training.

This is anything BUT a reason to lossen any gun laws.

As I said before - for those of you that see this as a good reason to loosen the existing transportation laws for non CPL or dumb down the current CPL requirements - you are insance [SIC].

So, you're not willing to fight for increased liberty because you fear it will give others an "argument"?

Yes, by all means, go running away from those righteous Antis. I don't know what else to say except that this principle is unimpressive. Do you have another way to fight for your rights that doesn't involve taking a stand?

I'll take a stand, but I'm not going to defend something as stupid as this. How can you?

Several people on this board have indicated that what happened, was because this person had to unload since he didn't have CPL for transportation.And thereforethat's a good example of why there shouldn't be transport restrictionsfor Non-CPL.

Does that seem logical to you?

That's not why this happened. This happened because some dude doesn't know gun saftey.

This web site promotes OC. OC does not require any training or permit. Many people OC without a CPL. We have a responsbility, FOR OUR OWN GOOD, to make sure that people that do not have a CPL and elect to OC are well trained in handling a firearm.

...as stupid as this? People fought and died for this right.

I agree with you that everyone should have training in firearms safety. I had roughly 14 years of it before I moved out of my house, and I continue to practice what I was taught, and since starting to teach my daughter, have gotten even more deeply into safety issues. It's wonderful what teaching another does for your own experience.

Anyone here, 40 years experience, or newbie, could have a bad day and have an AD or ND. In public, nobody should have to handle their firearm in order to exercise their right to carry. It should be done in private, out of the public.

If he had more/better training, would it have happened? Maybe.

If he had not had to handle it in public, would it have happened? NO

 

[wally1120]

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Greggy_D wrote:

If the gun malfunctioned, I would love to know what Springfield's diagnosis is.

I highly doubt that a springfield would malfunction, There are so many little safety features in a XD that you would have to have a firm grip on the gun, and be pulling the trigger. XD`s are very reliable guns and wont go off just for the fuc( of it. Same holds true to the glock there are 2 or 3 more safetys on the XD then the Glock, I own a XD and know many others that own Glocks and XD`s and they have to have the trigger pulled rearword for anything to go BOOM

 

[mymonie]

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Taurus850CIA wrote:

mymonie wrote:

CoonDog wrote:

mymonie wrote:

The last thing this is, is an example of removing the transportation laws. If anything, this would provide Anti-Gun types with a STRONG argument that even to carry, CC or OC - people need training.

This is anything BUT a reason to lossen any gun laws.

As I said before - for those of you that see this as a good reason to loosen the existing transportation laws for non CPL or dumb down the current CPL requirements - you are insance [SIC].

So, you're not willing to fight for increased liberty because you fear it will give others an "argument"?

Yes, by all means, go running away from those righteous Antis. I don't know what else to say except that this principle is unimpressive. Do you have another way to fight for your rights that doesn't involve taking a stand?

I'll take a stand, but I'm not going to defend something as stupid as this. How can you?

Several people on this board have indicated that what happened, was because this person had to unload since he didn't have CPL for transportation.And thereforethat's a good example of why there shouldn't be transport restrictionsfor Non-CPL.

Does that seem logical to you?

That's not why this happened. This happened because some dude doesn't know gun saftey.

This web site promotes OC. OC does not require any training or permit. Many people OC without a CPL. We have a responsbility, FOR OUR OWN GOOD, to make sure that people that do not have a CPL and elect to OC are well trained in handling a firearm.

...as stupid as this? People fought and died for this right.

I agree with you that everyone should have training in firearms safety. I had roughly 14 years of it before I moved out of my house, and I continue to practice what I was taught, and since starting to teach my daughter, have gotten even more deeply into safety issues. It's wonderful what teaching another does for your own experience.

Anyone here, 40 years experience, or newbie, could have a bad day and have an AD or ND. In public, nobody should have to handle their firearm in order to exercise their right to carry. It should be done in private, out of the public.

If he had more/better training, would it have happened? Maybe.

If he had not had to handle it in public, would it have happened? NO

No, it would not have happened in public without that law, it would happen in his home, range - where ever he has to load/unload.

I would say that the better term is IF you can't handle your firearm in public, don't carry in public.

I don't logic how a law is the fault of this when it was 100% operator error.

 

[Taurus850CIA]

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Nobody has said it's the law (or lack thereof)s fault.

 

[Geek Saint]

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Open Carry, open panic

Shot fired at gun rights picnic panics beachgoers


By ANDREW LERSTEN - H-P South Haven Bureau
Published: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:13 PM EDT


SOUTH HAVEN - A Kalamazoo man who police said accidentally fired his handgun during a gun rights picnic at South Haven's South Beach earlier this month - sending an estimated 150 people scurrying - was in court this week.

Jonathan Sager, 28, pleaded not guilty in Seventh District Court Wednesday to a misdemeanor charge of reckless use of a firearm, court officials said.

Sager had been attending the picnic sponsored by the Michigan Open Carry organization on Sept. 13, Police Chief Rod Somerlott said. He said Sager was unloading his semiautomatic handgun, preparing it for transport in a friend's vehicle that was parked at the beach, when the gun went off.

An estimated 150 people at the beach that Sunday fled after the gunshot rang out, but no one was injured, Somerlott said.

"I don't know if there was screaming, but I bet the sand was flying (due to the public's panic)," Somerlott said. "I think it would tick off anyone who was there."

Michigan Open Carry of Michigan aims to raise public awareness about the legal right to carry a firearm.

The organization's Web site says its goals are:

-- "To educate and desensitize the public and members of the law enforcement community about the legality of the open carry of a handgun in public.

-- "To exercise a natural right to self-defense using the most efficient and common tool, a handgun.

-- "To demonstrate to the public at large that gun owners are one of the most lawful segments of society and they have nothing to fear from the lawful carry of a firearm.

-- "To protect our right to self-defense."

alersten@TheH-P.com

http://www.heraldpalladium.com/articles/2009/09/25/local_news/864567.txt

 

[autosurgeon]

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Rod is really pissing me off on this! :cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss:

NO ONE was fleeing the beach as we were there for 30 min at least after the shot was fired and the parking lot had just as many cars as when we came back from our walk on the pier just prior to the guys leaving who had the discharge.

He is trying to sensationalize it! I am afraid my opinion of him just went down the crapper!!

 

[Michigander]

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Shouldn't MOC be doing press releases on this as well?

 

[TheRabbitsHole]

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autosurgeon wrote:

Rod is really pissing me off on this! :cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss:

NO ONE was fleeing the beach as we were there for 30 min at least after the shot was fired and the parking lot had just as many cars as when we came back from our walk on the pier just prior to the guys leaving who had the discharge.

He is trying to sensationalize it! I am afraid my opinion of him just went down the crapper!!

It's spreading too. There are other sites that have been saying similar things about beach-goers.

 

[mekender]

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If even the police chief says it was an accident, how are they planning to prove recklessness?

There IS a difference between the two. Recklessness requires intentionally dangerous behavior.

 

[autosurgeon]

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This is getting blown way out proportion just as I feared:banghead:

The worst part is the stupid lies about the beach goers ... I was there and I would bet most people had no idea it was a gun unless they saw it go off.

 

[Nutczak]

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mekender wrote:

If even the police chief says it was an accident, how are they planning to prove recklessness?

There IS a difference between the two. Recklessness requires intentionally dangerous behavior.

If the guy did plead guilty to the charge, (Dumb move IMO) it is done and over and it just made it worse for you guys. He would have been way better pleading Not-Guilty, and going to trial with news reports pertaining to every N-D in the state by law enforcement and asking why they were not charged with similar things.

 

[Citizen]

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autosurgeon wrote:

This is getting blown way out proportion just as I feared:banghead:

Don't fear it. Don't cringe. What would be really surprising is if they didn't blow it all out of proportion.

Just know that things like this (the ND/AD) are going to happen sooner or later, and be ready to deal with hyperbole.

 

[autosurgeon]

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Read the article a few posts up... He plead NOT Guilty!

 

[autosurgeon]

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Citizen wrote:

autosurgeon wrote:

This is getting blown way out proportion just as I feared:banghead:

Don't fear it. Don't cringe. What would be really surprising is if they didn't blow it all out of proportion.

Just know that things like this (the ND/AD) are going to happen sooner or later, and be ready to deal with hyperbole.

Maybe a better way for me to say it would be... They are acting just as I would expect... Oh trust me I don't fear them... I still am OCing and educating and handing out information!

 

[jvanhorn]

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autosurgeon wrote:

This is getting blown way out proportion just as I feared:banghead:

The worst part is the stupid lies about the beach goers ... I was there and I would bet most people had no idea it was a gun unless they saw it go off.

Do you think that there is any value in contacting the H-P to ask them to correct their account?

Or, at least get them to admit that they stretched the truth a little?