Shots fired at South Haven Picnic

[bb]

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Black eye yes, It was on Fox 2 news this morning, They said at a pro gun ralley a man discharged his firearm, How quick they are to jump on this, but when invited to picnic they never show up to report.

 

[Yooper]

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autosurgeon wrote:

In competition the make you do this on the range... IE pull the trigger to show clear! He could have learned it that way or from watching pistol comp on TV..

That's SCARY!! During my work related training for one of my past jobs, we'd have to have the slide locked back with the magazine out. Then the range instructor would come by and visually check everybody's gun.


At least the "keep it pointed in a safe direction" rule was followed, even though (unless it was a manufacturing defect) others were not.

 

[zigziggityzoo]

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bossbart wrote:

Black eye yes, It was on Fox 2 news this morning, They said at a pro gun ralley a man discharged his firearm, How quick they are to jump on this, but when invited to picnic they never show up to report.

Don't be so sure.

My Kalamazoo event had the local FOX and ABC affiliate, as well as the local newspaper (Kzoo Gazette). I got a good couple minute spot on FOX - generally positive, too.

It's all about sensationalization of news. Whatever gets ratings. That's why they cover stories like this.

-Zig.

 

[autosurgeon]

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Yeah I think it is a stupid practice!

This is how they say it... these are the commands

Unload and show clear, drop hammer or striker, range is safe.

I got yelled at for lowering the hammer on my CZ 82 with my thumb. And told that I must pull the trigger...

 

[Springfield Smitty]

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Nutczak wrote:

Anyone else carry an XD or an XDm? I find the XDm kinda funky to unload or pull back the slide because the grip safety needs to be depressed to do so.

I have been carrying without one in the chamber because of it, I would feelway more comfortable with my XDm if I could rack the slide to eject a chambered round without needing to depress the grip safety.

I can understand how someone new to the XD's could finger the trigger negligently if they are not fully familiar with the gun.

Not an excuse for what happened, but possibly a reason that could have been engineered differently to avoid just such a situation.

Anyways, keep your booger-hook out of the trigger guard unless you are firing!!

Sorry to hear about the incident guys, you have worked hard to get where you are, I hope this does not cause lasting problems.

I have two XD's in my household (mine is the .40 and the wife's is the 9mm). The grip safety must be depressed to pull the slide to the rear on the XD as well.

 

[Springfield Smitty]

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Taurus850CIA wrote:

He says he pulls the trigger to check that the chamber is empty. I was dumbfounded when he told me that. It's a bad habit that I'll bet he will never again commit. Why he pulled the trigger is beyond me, but some people aren't taught well.

This is also a common practice in the military. The practice is referred to as a "functions check" and I perform this activity after re-assembly each time I clean the weapon. I often do so when clearing my weapon as well.

This is just what I was taught to do in the Army and will probably never change. The weapon is ALWAYS confirmed to be unloaded before this action is performed. I do not see any problem with it, just as I do not see any problem with carrying hot, when done correctly.

Both can beunsafe if done improperly.

 

[Wglide90]

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I'm one for having a forum for safety. This guy was unfamiliar with his gun, because it was new, he just got it. And it sounds like the XD has some flaws (or factors that would be unsafe if not familiar) that would percipitate unsafe handling to a possible AD.

That is why the safety factor must be the most important part of what we gun owners must emphisize at all times.

A carried gun w/o one in the pipe is really not a good defense in many cases, for autos it takes 2 hands to rack one in. So in order for it to do it's job you must learn how to safely handle the gun loaded up.

In my opinion: If you don't feel comfortable enough to carry one in pipe then you need not carry until you get training or learn to handle safely w/ confidence.

Let's get safety forum up to be safety as the foremost important part of carrying.

 

[autosurgeon]

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Springfield Smitty wrote:

Taurus850CIA wrote:

He says he pulls the trigger to check that the chamber is empty. I was dumbfounded when he told me that. It's a bad habit that I'll bet he will never again commit. Why he pulled the trigger is beyond me, but some people aren't taught well.

This is also a common practice in the military. The practice is referred to as a "functions check" and I perform this activity after re-assembly each time I clean the weapon. I often do so when clearing my weapon as well.

This is just what I was taught to do in the Army and will probably never change. The weapon is ALWAYS confirmed to be unloaded before this action is performed. I do not see any problem with it, just as I do not see any problem with carrying hot, when done correctly.

Both can be unsafe if done improperly.

I do it too after cleaning for a function test. But I use a 5 gallon bucket full of sand for a clearing safety zone. I do not do this in public other than at the range.

 

[T Vance]

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Springfield Smitty wrote:

Taurus850CIA wrote:

He says he pulls the trigger to check that the chamber is empty. I was dumbfounded when he told me that. It's a bad habit that I'll bet he will never again commit. Why he pulled the trigger is beyond me, but some people aren't taught well.

This is also a common practice in the military. The practice is referred to as a "functions check" and I perform this activity after re-assembly each time I clean the weapon. I often do so when clearing my weapon as well.

This is just what I was taught to do in the Army and will probably never change. The weapon is ALWAYS confirmed to be unloaded before this action is performed. I do not see any problem with it, just as I do not see any problem with carrying hot, when done correctly.

Both can beunsafe if done improperly.

I think what Taurus was dumbfounded with was this line..."He says he pulls the trigger to check that the chamber is empty."

You inspect the chamber to check if it's empty, not pull the trigger.

"BANG. Well, I guess it wasn't empty."

 

[mymonie]

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With all due respect...

The last thing this is, is an example of removing the transportation laws. If anything, this would provide Anti-Gun types with a STRONG argument that even to carry, CC or OC - people need training.

If you can not unload your gun without a AD, you should not carry a gun. And this person walks around public, without a CPL - therefore must unload his gun a lot if he carrys.

This is anything BUT a reason to lossen any gun laws.

 

[mymonie]

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autosurgeon wrote:

It is too bad this happened but at this point all we can do is stress that we as the ambassadors of firearms rights MUST be extremely careful at all times ESP when unloading and storing in public...

I feel that If he could have got in the vehicle with it still in it's holster this wouldn't have happened at all! Also remember when you are riding with others that you must take your time and not let them rush you (NOTE I am not saying that is what happened here) but in other cases when riding with others I have forgotten things myself ... never had an AD as a result... but then I have my CPL.

Note the group of people from Kzoo that this guy was with left us at the pavilion about 10 min before I heard the shot.

Ahh Hello? This has nothing to do with the transportation rule. So, if he doesn't have to unload his weapon, he won't have a AD?

What kind of logic is that?

People like this schmuck are going to kill someone one of these days. If I didn't know how to safely load and unload, clear chamber my gun - the LAST thing you should do is go out in public and do it or go and get your CPL to minimize how often you have to unload.

This dude needs to go take Pistol 101. He has no business touching of a gun without going to some beginner level saftey course.

As I said before - for those of you that see this as a good reason to loosen the existing transportation laws for non CPL or dumb down the current CPL requirements - you are insance.

 

[wally1120]

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Everyone that says it is a ND is correct,I have also seen people that have been around guns for many many years and they have nice customizied guns with feather trigger set off when not intended to. Accidents do happen every now and then and there is nothing we can do about it,don`t matter how safe we be things are still going to happen,We may not mean for it to happen but hey guess what we are humans so do mistakes. If you say that you dont make mistakes then you are a blowhard and full of SHI@ you are not perfect, one day there will be an incident with a firearm that you have and relize OH man I didn`t mean to do that,Guess what accident. Proof that you aren`t perfect.

Also why keep dwelling on this subject about the shoot at the picnic?,I bet there are anti`s looking at every post on this site,subject and they are just getting more and more to use against us. So I say we try not to post to much more on this topic,Lets get over this incident. The sooner we forget about the shot at the picnic,the sooner the anti`s will have something to use against us,the longer this goes untalked about the better pro gun and anti gun will both forget this even happen sooner or later.

 

[TheRabbitsHole]

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I don't see the sense in the practice of pulling the trigger. I mean, common sense says, if it has a live round in the chamber, it's going to fire when you don't want it to (even if you are expecting it).

Unfortunately this is a "black eye" as you all say. Fortunately the gun was pointed in a safe direction and nobody was hurt.

Just wondering, but when the politician accidently shot his hunting partner, did they try to introduce more gun laws because of it?

 

[JeffSayers]

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Michigander wrote:

...I make no excuses about what happened and blame myself completely. I allowed a loaded gun to point at me, so it was my fault. I deserve ridicule for what happened...

Thank you for stepping up and calling yourself a fool Michigander. (At least at one time.) You paid the price for your actions and have learned from the experience.

I say the guy shouldbe hung out to dry to make damn well sure it doesn't happen again. Pay his price. Remember our beloved phrase "hit 'em where it hurts"? Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. RESPONSIBILITY!

 

[Wglide90]

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Wally,

I understand your point, but we need to dwell on the safety. I would like to get the details of the probable casue on this one. So that others become aware!

If we encourage carrying guns we need to make safety the most important part of the cause.

To me it's not about the anti's it's about being around people that are not as safe as I am.

In this case it was lucky that the gun was not pointed at someone, was that due to practice or dumb luck with that guy?

How would anyone feel that were at this picnic and hear gun shot while sitting at picnic table or hearing a bullet whiz by. Or worse.

The talk at the events should be about safety. That is more important the the opposition. GIVE them no cause to be alarmed.

 

[wrightme]

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Most of this involves speculation. The only known points from what I have read so far are:

1) He was at the event.

2) His firearm discharged while unloading.

The rest is speculation, including the how of the discharge. I have not seen facts related to the method of causation. It is either "finger on trigger with one in the tube" or "malfunction with one in the tube."

Until it is known which is accurate, the discussion is moot.

 

[Michigander]

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Wglide90 wrote:

In my opinion: If you don't feel comfortable enough to carry one in pipe then you need not carry until you get training or learn to handle safely w/ confidence.

With some guns, and with some holsters, carrying safely chambered is impossible. For example, a Glock in a cheap cloth holster it could easily slip out of. Probably better not carry it chambered. How about my CZ52? I am very lucky no one died when it shot me. What about a 1911 without the series 80 safety? Lots of things to consider.

In my case currently, I carry an extremely drop safe Sig in a level 3 Safariland holster. It's not going to fire unless it's unlocked, drawn and the trigger is pulled. Yet I carry it chamber empty usually when OCing. (CCing I tend to carry hot these days) Why? Because I've been disarmed by idiot cops numerous times, but as of yet I've never had to draw on someone. I consider dumbass cops who don't even understand Terry to be a much greater threat to my safety when unloading my gun than a criminal I'll likely never meet while OCing.

I encourage everyone to think long and hard about whether or not to carry chambered, and perhaps when to carry chambered and when not to. There are a lot of things that need to be carefully considered.

 

[wally1120]

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I understand it is a safety precaution but,the longer we talk about it the more the antis read about it as well.

 

[T Vance]

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I told the "accused" about this topic, but informed him not to post until everything is done with his court adventure. I too would like to know more than I know. I'm not going to share the little I'm aware of here becauseit is not my place. It's up to him if he wants to disclose what truely happened.

 

[Greggy_D]

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If the gun malfunctioned, I would love to know what Springfield's diagnosis is.