Remember, they disarm you for "Officer Safety".

[Metalhead47]

So after shooting this steel plated car the bullet couldnt penatrate, still had enough velocity to go through a leg and into an abdomen?

Groan. Here's the Wiki page on ricochets. Read up. Depending on what was being fired and from where, yes the round(s) or fragments thereof could easily have enough energy to penetrate flesh. Given that the guy reportedly wasn't hurt that bad, he probably got hit by frags or debris flying off the car.

 

[alispissed]

Pure cynicism on my part here but they are "JUST PRACTICING!"

For what?

 

[Dave_pro2a]

UH huh. And what do you have to support this hypothesis? Anything? Didn't think so.

I thought we were supposed to be better than "them." That means not pulling stuff out of our collective ass when we can't find anything concrete to pin on "them."

What do we have to support a different hypothesis? The word of a couple of Barney Fife's who are trying to avoid punishment. Thanks, actually in this case I'll trust what was originally reported, not what the story has changed to days later.

/meh You're biased, I'm biased, everyone is biased but it's indisputable that some cops default to CYA mode and lie like rugs.

 

[Bo]

in this case I'll trust what was originally reported,

Ah, the ol' I'll only trust the media when it reports something I agree with double-standard. Funny how when the press says anything vaguely anti-gun, everyone's all over it ... But, of course, since more credible info comes out regarding the "accidental shooting," some still prefer to believe the more salicious idea that a stupid cop negligently caused injury to a couple other cops ...

but it's indisputable that some cops default to CYA mode and lie like rugs.

Ah yeah, your bias is showing ...

Picture this: a news story comes out that two citizens are injured in an accident following gunfire at a local shooting range ... details are sparse, but the media report implies that someone screwed up, even though it's not apparent in the story ... Were it average citizens involved, some of y'all would be preaching for patience, wait for the details to come out. But because the OP is a story about cops, y'all want to believe the worst.

If you want to perpetuate an adversarial relationship with law enforcement, by all means, continue on with the rush to judgement and the ill-thought-out remarks.

 

[Dave_pro2a]

If you want to perpetuate an adversarial relationship with law enforcement

The American legal system is.... adversarial in nature.

Any 'civilian' contact with LEO is in essence adversarial in nature. That can even include victims of crime.

Any time you have a large disparity of power, you have the key ingredient for producing an inherently adversarial relationship.

Don't get mad at me for calling water wet.

 

[BigDave]

[video=youtube;0ABGIJwiGBc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ABGIJwiGBc[/video]

 

[Metalhead47]

The American legal system is.... adversarial in nature.

Any 'civilian' contact with LEO is in essence adversarial in nature. That can even include victims of crime.

Any time you have a large disparity of power, you have the key ingredient for producing an inherently adversarial relationship.

Don't get mad at me for calling water wet.

Bo beat me to most of my point. Dave, you're coming awfully close to cop-bashing, I think. You're asserting that just because they're LEOs, they're doing something nefarious.

Bigger point is, I thought WE were supposed to be the "bigger men" here! I thought WE weren't supposed to sink to "their" level! WE get all up in arms when we are labeled, misrepresented, and our statements summarily dismissed, if WE turn around and do exactly the same to others merely because they have a badge then we're nothing more than hypocrites, and no better than they are.

News stories are often inaccurate and vague when they first come out. It's the nature of dissemination of information. I have seen nothing presented here to support the the idea that this incident was anything more than a training accident. How many of y'all in the military haven't seen something similar in your time? Call those responsible stupid or negligent if you want, but to start labeling them liars when you have nothing to support that, well...

... then you're no better than they are.

Me, I've had plenty of encounters with LEOs that were non-adversarial. Maybe it's got something to do with attitude...

 

[Badger Johnson]

Bo beat me to most of my point. Dave, you're coming awfully close to cop-bashing, I think. You're asserting that just because they're LEOs, they're doing something nefarious.

I think he's talking more about 'the system' than the individual LEO. If you make ONE wrong move or statement, suddenly, like the glare of the eye of a Cylon, the attention is on you even if you are the 'victim'. In fact, most of the time, IME, when you call the cops they try to investigate you first. Maybe their experience makes them suspicious or jaded, IDK.

$.02

 

[sudden valley gunner]

So someone lied one way or the other. It was either an "accidental" discharge (who the paper get the info from?) Or it was a ricochet from practicing live fire "drill" into a car. Something I find disturbing.

To me though accidents happen, LEO or civilians I find the cover up or distorting of the facts more disturbing from our employees than the fact that "shite" happens.

 

[Metalhead47]

So someone lied one way or the other. It was either an "accidental" discharge (who the paper get the info from?) Or it was a ricochet from practicing live fire "drill" into a car. Something I find disturbing.

To me though accidents happen, LEO or civilians I find the cover up or distorting of the facts more disturbing from our employees than the fact that "shite" happens.

Once again, where is there ANY evidence of a lie, cover up, or any malicious intent here? Sounds to me like the news media jumping on a story and reporting before they have all the facts. That's not a lie, that's an error.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[amlevin]

Pure cynicism on my part here but they are "JUST PRACTICING!"

For what?

They're practicing the "Troy Meade Drill". You know the one where you shoot the driver in the back as many times as you can.

 

[Trigger Dr]

ANY comments made by anyone who was not there to witness what happened, is total speculation. The only ones who know what happened are the ones who were there and actually witnessed the "incident".
I firmly believe the way one accepts what is posted re any incident involving LEO, is colored by their attitude toward LEO. Then, any further contact with LEO is further colored with the same attitude regardless of the way it really played out.
Burn me once, shame on you...burn me twice, shame on me.

 

[amlevin]

ANY comments made by anyone who was not there to witness what happened, is total speculation. The only ones who know what happened are the ones who were there and actually witnessed the "incident".
I firmly believe the way one accepts what is posted re any incident involving LEO, is colored by their attitude toward LEO. Then, any further contact with LEO is further colored with the same attitude regardless of the way it really played out.
Burn me once, shame on you...burn me twice, shame on me.

I just found reports of the "incident" rather humorous based on an encounter at a local range a couple of years ago. A Lake Stevens Police Officer was totally PO'd that the range wasn't totally shut down during their practice session. He was outraged at the fact that non-Leo's were being allowed to use one group of lanes even though they were totally isolated from the Leo's area by a steel door and concrete wall. This officer was just sure that a "negligent or stupid citizen" would end up shooting one of the officers that were training on the other side. He actually suggested that any spare vests that the officers might have available be hung over the door separating the range sections. I kid you not, this officer was over the top with his concern.

I smiled and went about my shooting. To the best of my knowledge, no officers were harmed that day by either themselves or others And then I read about this incident and I broke into a grin big enough to eat a banana sideways

 

[BigDave]

And then I read about this incident and I broke into a grin big enough to eat a banana sideways

View attachment 6399

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Once again, where is there ANY evidence of a lie, cover up, or any malicious intent here? Sounds to me like the news media jumping on a story and reporting before they have all the facts. That's not a lie, that's an error.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So why the only correction from a friend of a friend? Why no correction in the paper? Why hasn't the department out right come out and say what happened? You may be absolutely right. But government agencies of any form haven't the best track record of being 'honest' so the rightful cynicism of the people. Someone was dishonest either the way the paper mislead the story or the Police are covering their ass.

ANY comments made by anyone who was not there to witness what happened, is total speculation. The only ones who know what happened are the ones who were there and actually witnessed the "incident".
I firmly believe the way one accepts what is posted re any incident involving LEO, is colored by their attitude toward LEO. Then, any further contact with LEO is further colored with the same attitude regardless of the way it really played out.
Burn me once, shame on you...burn me twice, shame on me.

So?

We owe LEO/LEA nothing, they make a living off tax payer dollars for a job that isn't all that hard. When you take a job as a public employee, better get used to public criticism.

So are you making assumption about peoples contact with LEO? I have had many friendly conversations with cops. Even though personally I feel much of their work is anti liberty and unconstitutional. Of course their are many who will demagogue any one who feels that way. Why is that? Is that because of their love of Law Enforcement?

 

[Trigger Dr]

So why the only correction from a friend of a friend? Why no correction in the paper? Why hasn't the department out right come out and say what happened? You may be absolutely right. But government agencies of any form haven't the best track record of being 'honest' so the rightful cynicism of the people. Someone was dishonest either the way the paper mislead the story or the Police are covering their ass.





So?

We owe LEO/LEA nothing, they make a living off tax payer dollars for a job that isn't all that hard. When you take a job as a public employee, better get used to public criticism.

So are you making assumption about peoples contact with LEO? I have had many friendly conversations with cops. Even though personally I feel much of their work is anti liberty and unconstitutional. Of course their are many who will demagogue any one who feels that way. Why is that? Is that because of their love of Law Enforcement?

Try reading this again while reading for content. Your views on law enforcement really stand out here. Nothing was said PRO LEO, nor was anything said ANTI LEO in my post. I am trying to point out the FACT that if one has a bad experience with leo, any further contact usually will have memories of the bad experience and will color their views on forth coming contacts.
You may have had many friendly conversations with leo, just as I have had many friendly conversations with contractors. I have also been the victim of decietful and unethical contractors. Does that give me the right to assume that all contractors fit that mold? No, but is does make me more careful in my dealings with them. It would appear that is not the case with you and your dealings with leo. You are anti leo pure and simple. Insert your own words here.(Even though personally I feel much of their work is anti liberty and unconstitutional.)
Once again, the only ones who know exactly what happened are the ones who witnessed the incident. Anything else is speculation.

 

[Metalhead47]

Try reading this again while reading for content. Your views on law enforcement really stand out here. Nothing was said PRO LEO, nor was anything said ANTI LEO in my post. I am trying to point out the FACT that if one has a bad experience with leo, any further contact usually will have memories of the bad experience and will color their views on forth coming contacts.
You may have had many friendly conversations with leo, just as I have had many friendly conversations with contractors. I have also been the victim of decietful and unethical contractors. Does that give me the right to assume that all contractors fit that mold? No, but is does make me more careful in my dealings with them. It would appear that is not the case with you and your dealings with leo. You are anti leo pure and simple. Insert your own words here.(Even though personally I feel much of their work is anti liberty and unconstitutional.)
Once again, the only ones who know exactly what happened are the ones who witnessed the incident. Anything else is speculation.

This. Based solely on what little we know on this incident so far, I see absolutely no reason to blame the police in any way. Or perhaps to be it better, if there's blame to be placed, I can't logically see, based on what little we know, whom to place it on.

The LEO who made the bad shot, whatever it was? The guy in charge of the training exercise? The CO who approved it? The PR guy who told the media? The media who reported? The friend-of-a-friend with the differing story? Who?

Truth is, none of us really know anything with any certainty about the situation, so as the good doctor said, any attempt to place blame is purely speculation.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Try reading this again while reading for content. Your views on law enforcement really stand out here. Nothing was said PRO LEO, nor was anything said ANTI LEO in my post. I am trying to point out the FACT that if one has a bad experience with leo, any further contact usually will have memories of the bad experience and will color their views on forth coming contacts.

You may have had many friendly conversations with leo, just as I have had many friendly conversations with contractors. I have also been the victim of decietful and unethical contractors. Does that give me the right to assume that all contractors fit that mold? No, but is does make me more careful in my dealings with them. It would appear that is not the case with you and your dealings with leo. You are anti leo pure and simple. Insert your own words here.(Even though personally I feel much of their work is anti liberty and unconstitutional.)

Once again, the only ones who know exactly what happened are the ones who witnessed the incident. Anything else is speculation.

You have stated you have a love for Law Enforcement. And I see you immediately jumping to the defense often of those departments. And you assume too much about me.

Your contractor situation is a different beast. Your contractor more than likely isn't protected by the state a union and and then try to use his authority to coerce you in giving up your rights. And they are private not public employees. Just because you "Love Law enforcement" doesn't mean my lack of love for unconstitutional proactive law enforcement means I judge each "individual" LEO as a bad person. And yes I make no qualms and am very public about what 'Law' has morphed into in this country.

Lets look at my quote again you took "Even though personally I feel much of their work is anti liberty and unconstitutional." Did I say all? I have stated before I feel we need some law enforcement but very very limited law enforcement. What I find disconcerting is those who claim to love the constitution and liberty who don't think so. And try to rationalize and promote the standing army our founders warned us about.

Oh by the way I was pointing out I have friendly conversations with LEO, because I don't judge them individually. I even have a few friends who are cops, and they know exactly how I feel and we are still friends.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

This. Based solely on what little we know on this incident so far, I see absolutely no reason to blame the police in any way. Or perhaps to be it better, if there's blame to be placed, I can't logically see, based on what little we know, whom to place it on.

The LEO who made the bad shot, whatever it was? The guy in charge of the training exercise? The CO who approved it? The PR guy who told the media? The media who reported? The friend-of-a-friend with the differing story? Who?

Truth is, none of us really know anything with any certainty about the situation, so as the good doctor said, any attempt to place blame is purely speculation.

And if you read my posts carefully I didn't place "blame" accidents happen I don't care if it was a cop or regular joeshmoe.

What I don't like is that someone "may" be lying. If it was the paper they need to retract, if it was the cops, they need to face censure.

I wonder though if someone would be found negligent if it was a bunch of rednecks practicing on an old beater on the back forty though. I bet some of our "authorities" would be vigorously trying to get to the bottom of their story. So why shouldn't we try to get to the bottom of our employees story?

 

[amlevin]

I wonder though if someone would be found negligent if it was a bunch of rednecks practicing on an old beater on the back forty though. I bet some of our "authorities" would be vigorously trying to get to the bottom of their story. So why shouldn't we try to get to the bottom of our employees story?

Someone is more likely than not "trying to get to the bottom of (their) story" as it was essentially a "Workplace Injury". That brings in the Department safety people, WISHA (WA State's version of OSHA), the insurance company(s), Supervisors, etc.

Just because they don't share the information with us doesn't mean that there is a cover up. The information is there for all to see, just use FOIA to obtain it. I'm sure that the news media is doing so and will be publishing the findings, especially if there was a screw-up.