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Quoting laws vs Quoting the bill of rights.

joanie

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I was told something not long ago that really has me thinking, and it's probibly true. But what I don't get, what I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around, is why it's true. I was told that bringing up the 2ed amendment, and the 4th, as in just about any case of an open carry stop, the 4th would come into play as well, probibly more so than the 2ed even, would make me seem crazy. Also, that instead, I should just only bring up the laws. My gosh, theres so many laws, to keep track of. Some to support the right to open carry, and others that kinda work against it. Not sure I'm up to that task. I'd be more inclined to ask what law I've broken, but then I've put stock in a law that might be unconstitutional, and I'd have to take the word of the cop relaying this info.

But as I think about this, I think of the reason, one of the reasons we open carry. To make it more accepted in our community, state, nation, ect. I think that maybe, we should fall back more on the bill of rights for the same reason. My gosh, If we can support the notion that those who place a great deal of importance in our rights, are crazy, to the point of being too ashamed of these freedoms to openly speak out in favor of them, well I don't know if theres any hope for humanity.

I was not around in the late 1700s early 1800s. Or maybe I was in another life and just don't remember it, hows that for crazy lol.. But I would imagine that our founders, and the people of the newly formed nation took pride in those rights outlined in the bill of rights, that they spoke often of them.

So if we open carry to make it more accepted, shouldn't we go to the strongest argument in favor of it for the same reason?


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, The right of the people To keep and bear Arms, Shall not be infringed.

Protection from unreasonable search and seizure. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.



Or is that just crazy talk?, your thoughts?
 

Citizen

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I'm not sure I understand your post. It seems you're uncertain about what to say during a police encounter, so I'll discuss that.


During a police investigative encounter, your first priority is to protect your legal position, rather than try to persuade the cop or "out-argue" him.

You don't "bring up" rights. You exercise them. The reason is to protect your legal position. For example:

"I don't consent to this encounter."
"Am I free to leave?"
"I don't consent to any searches."
"I won't answer any questions without my attorney."
"Why am I detained?" "What law am I suspected of breaking?" (Same question as the first, just different words)


Understand there are two things occurring. One is the legal jockeying. But, senior to that is the conversational tactics. Cops ask questions. If you fall into the trap of answering or responding to the question at all, you have yielded the initiative to him. There is no law of the universe that says just because somebody asks a question, you have to answer it. If you say you won't answer any questions, and the cop asks why you don't want to talk if you have nothing to hide, you're just falling for his tactic/yielding the initiative to him if you answer or reply. You can just as easily ask him a question in reply. Or, stand mute. Or, repeat that you won't answer any questions. The main point is to maintain control and initiative of your side of the conversation.

If you want to get into a discussion about the law or bill of rights with a cop, fine. If experience is worth anything, such discussion is a waste of time. You might get lucky and remind him of something he learned earlier. But, most of the time they think they already know the law and rights, and aren't going to accept much of anything you say along those lines during the encounter.

So, stick to protecting your legal position by exercising your rights. Maybe ask the cop a few questions like "why am I being detained?" to see if he will give a damaging answer you can use against him later in a formal complaint or lawsuit. But, don't bother having a debate with him.
 

joanie

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I'm not sure I understand your post. It seems you're uncertain about what to say during a police encounter, so I'll discuss that.

Thats not what I was thinking in this topic, but it's nice that you confirm how I was planning to handle a police encounter. I was thinking more along the lines of defending open carry to friends, family, neighbors, and on other discussion boards where many accuse me of wanting to stir up trouble with police and set the neighbord into a panic state. Or at least one time, being accused of wanting to comment suicide by cop.

I mean I mention open carrying, and it's like they have this immage of me waiving a gun around in a threatining manor. Then maybe go off into talking about their rights to be safe from a nutjob with a gun.

I know we may open carry for diffrent reasons. Some might live in a bad neighborhood, some just want to be prepaired for what might happen. Me?, I prettymuch feel safe from being attacked, mugged, robbed, ect. I really never have much to take, and I'm not very attractive. I wouldn't hesitate to walk alone at night in my neighborhood. Worst that might probibly happen is I get some verbal abuse from a cop who don't think I should be out late at night.

My reason is basically to assert my rights, it's kinda a personal freedom thing. If it weren't so frowned upon, if the right to do this wasn't so under attack, I don't know that I would. Just that I see many who don't appricate their freedom. They wonder what the big deal is in giving up gun carry, and gun ownership.

So is it ok to openly say exactly why I'm openly carrying to those who might need help understanding?, not police, I really don't care what they think.
 

sudden valley gunner

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I'm not sure I understand your post. It seems you're uncertain about what to say during a police encounter, so I'll discuss that.

Thats not what I was thinking in this topic, but it's nice that you confirm how I was planning to handle a police encounter. I was thinking more along the lines of defending open carry to friends, family, neighbors, and on other discussion boards where many accuse me of wanting to stir up trouble with police and set the neighbord into a panic state. Or at least one time, being accused of wanting to comment suicide by cop.

I mean I mention open carrying, and it's like they have this immage of me waiving a gun around in a threatining manor. Then maybe go off into talking about their rights to be safe from a nutjob with a gun.

I know we may open carry for diffrent reasons. Some might live in a bad neighborhood, some just want to be prepaired for what might happen. Me?, I prettymuch feel safe from being attacked, mugged, robbed, ect. I really never have much to take, and I'm not very attractive. I wouldn't hesitate to walk alone at night in my neighborhood. Worst that might probibly happen is I get some verbal abuse from a cop who don't think I should be out late at night.

My reason is basically to assert my rights, it's kinda a personal freedom thing. If it weren't so frowned upon, if the right to do this wasn't so under attack, I don't know that I would. Just that I see many who don't appricate their freedom. They wonder what the big deal is in giving up gun carry, and gun ownership.

So is it ok to openly say exactly why I'm openly carrying to those who might need help understanding?, not police, I really don't care what they think.

I have quite a bit of luck being a 'rights nut not a gun nut' approach with people. Find the rights they like expound on that then educate about the rights you like.

And you are right I made it a big issue when I was arrested twice in one day, to make the issue a 4th and 5th amendment issue not a 2A issue.
 

Ken56

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Joanie, if people say they have the right to be safe from a "nut job with a gun" you may just restate that there IS no right to be safe from anything or any one, just the right to defend yourself and loved ones FROM the nut job with what ever weapon they would use against you. I also have a few friends who think I am paranoid and don't, no, won't consider the point that I am exercising my god given rights, affirmed under our constitution. It amazes me how people take for granted what they think will never be taken away. I have told people that if it wasn't for our founding fathers taking up arms against the king we would still be British subjects, or maybe just all of North America would be called Canada. By todays standards the founders would be deemed terrorists, and likely would be in GITMO held as enemy combatants. How ironic.
 
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eye95

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Court interpretations of the 4A tell us that cops must have (R)easonable (A)rticulable (S)uspicion (RAS) to stop (seize) a person for investigation. However, State law defines the crimes for which the officer must have RAS.

Use the wording from court rulings on the 4A to determine whether you have been seized. If you can get the cop to A his RS (and capture that statement on your recorder), all the better, especially if the officer is full of it.

So, as others have stated, keep your interaction with the officer to a minimum. Ask if you are free to leave (4A). If he says yes, go. If he does not answer, carefully assume yes, and slowly start to go. If he grabs you or shouts a forceful command, you are not free to go (seized), then stop and make sure a record of his actions shows up on the recording (Why are you grabbing my arm?). If he says no, you are seized, and the no should be on your recording.

If you are seized, then ask why you are being detained. He won't have to A his RS, but get it on the recording if he does. If the S he As is not R, you can sort that out later. Also, if you are seized, comply with any State laws regarding identifying yourself and allowing the officer to disarm you. You can never be sure whether the cop has RAS or not, so assume that he does, follow the law, and deal with an illegal detention later.

So, both constitutional and criminal law come into play during a stop for OC. But don't get into a legal debate during the stop. It never goes well.

It actually increases the chance that you will be arrested for breaking some other law unrelated to your carry. You may beat that rap, but you won't beat the ride. But, you know that.

We can unnecessarily martyr ourselves, or we can fix problems. I fixed the problem in Montgomery, AL without martyring myself. You have martyred yourself several times. Fix any problems in the process? (Or, as Dr. Phil would ask, "How's that workin' out for ya?")
 

Citizen

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SNIPSo is it ok to openly say exactly why I'm openly carrying to those who might need help understanding?

You seem to have a knack for saying something other than what you mean. And, I mean that charitably.

Here's my point: why the **ck do you need our permission or approval to say what you want to someone else?

But, maybe you didn't mean what you wrote. Lets examine that angle for just a moment. Are you really incapable of figuring out for yourself how to handle or address the person in front of you about why you OC? Really?

Give me a break already.

Say whatever you want. There is no one-size-fits-all. Each person you talk to will be different.
 

skidmark

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Joanie -

Prresuming you are a newbie to OCing, I also presume that 1) you feel like you are sticking out like a sore thumb amongst the folks you know, all of whom do not OC, and 2) that you are experiencing a very common psychological state that (in order to avoid even more technical terms) I will call "social dissonance" - the fact of belonging and interacting in two different and often incompatable camps (all your friends who also are distinguished by the fact that they do not OC, and you who is the only one you know among your friends who OCs).

That being the case, you may feel a compulsion to explain your "abberant" behavior in order to prevent the rest of the herd/tribe from turning on you. It it looks different or acts diffent the natural instinct of the herd/tribe is to either drive it out (prevents contamination) or kill it (also prevents contamination).

Most of humanity has gotten away from outright killing of the "different" ones. That leaves you with only needing to trying to avoid being shunned or driven out into the physical/emotional desert.

Do you drive <brand of automobile> because everybody else does, or do you drive it because you want to drive it over any other brand you could afford to purchase and maintain? Do you buy <brand of clothing/shoes> ....? Or <brand of beer> ....? If you have the courage of your convictions to <do/buy listed> because it is something you want to do, as opposed to feeling pressured by your peers into doing, then the same should apply to OCing. It's just that OCing is a bit farther out on the limb of personal choices than the rest of the stuff.

IF part of the reason for OCing involves "educating" the public about a way for them to legally exercise a righht, then that's great. If it's in order to impress the girls and scare away the guys who used to kick sand in your face at the beach, that's probably going to end up less sucessful than you might have hoped.

If someone wonders if OCing is legal, you can point them, if it applies in your state, to the fact that there is no law against it and that laws are usually written to tell us what we may not do, as opposed to telling us what we may do. The Ohio section of OCDO http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?119-Ohio has a sticky about how the Ohio supreme court sees OCing. There is also a great organization - Buckeye Firearm Owners (I probably got that wrong) that has lots of legal education stuff at their website.

I have a lot of "reasons" why I OC. All of them are explained better that I ever could at http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/why-the-gun-is-civilization/ .

stay safe.
 

joanie

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You seem to have a knack for saying something other than what you mean. And, I mean that charitably. Here's my point: why the **ck do you need our permission or approval to say what you want to someone else? But, maybe you didn't mean what you wrote. Lets examine that angle for just a moment. Are you really incapable of figuring out for yourself how to handle or address the person in front of you about why you OC? Really? Give me a break already. Say whatever you want. There is no one-size-fits-all. Each person you talk to will be different.

I say what I don't mean? Totally confused there. I'm not seeking approval, just was told by someone on these boards that I should lay off the bill of rights and focus more on the laws, because the bill of rights makes me seem waco. That would require that I learn the laws better and how to interpret them. I was just seeing how many others think the same. Testing the waters with other open carriers.

It's my thinking and I'm really tring to say exactly what I mean, that the bill of rights pre dates most or all laws on the books. But theres something else that pre dates even the bill of rights and constitution. Who knows?, it might even make me seem craizer. Personal freedom, and God given free will. That goes to the heart of exactly why I open carry when I do, why I even want to open carry. It's not even so much for the right to self defence wit I suspect is the reason most here do it. To be honest, I'd rather not have to make the choice of if or not I'm justified in defending myself in such a way. In just about any such situation, that choice has to be made and carried out within a single second. Thats a big choice to be made in a fraction of a second. To me, thats the biggest downside of open carry.

In any case, the topic is only intended to gain imput, nothing more. Maybe to help me, and others to put things in perspective.
 

eye95

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You need to know both!

However, I don't recommend a lot of discussion or argument about the law at the time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

Citizen

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SNIP I say what I don't mean? Totally confused there. I'm not seeking approval, just was told by someone on these boards that I should lay off the bill of rights and focus more on the laws, because the bill of rights makes me seem waco. That would require that I learn the laws better and how to interpret them. I was just seeing how many others think the same. Testing the waters with other open carriers.

It's my thinking and I'm really tring to say exactly what I mean, that the bill of rights pre dates most or all laws on the books. But theres something else that pre dates even the bill of rights and constitution. Who knows?, it might even make me seem craizer. Personal freedom, and God given free will. That goes to the heart of exactly why I open carry when I do, why I even want to open carry. It's not even so much for the right to self defence wit I suspect is the reason most here do it. To be honest, I'd rather not have to make the choice of if or not I'm justified in defending myself in such a way. In just about any such situation, that choice has to be made and carried out within a single second. Thats a big choice to be made in a fraction of a second. To me, thats the biggest downside of open carry.

In any case, the topic is only intended to gain imput, nothing more. Maybe to help me, and others to put things in perspective.

OK. Here's your input.

First, don't maunder. And, if you want people to understand you, definitely don't maunder in the middle of a paragraph. All the stuff I highlighted in red is basically maundering that just makes it hard for a reader to follow what you're saying because the reader assumes your sticking to your subject. Remember, the pauses and changes in voice tone that happen in conversation don't translate well in text.

Second, as I said, there is no one-size-fits-all approach. You're going to have to figure out how to address each person to whom you talk.

Basically, at the beginning I evaluate each person on whether the person is antagonistic or friendly.

If he is antagonistic and he started the conversation, I carry it only one more step: is he opposed to guns, or is he a CC-only type who likes guns but is opposed to OC? If he is antagonistic right now and opposed to guns, I either just ignore him, or reply in a bored tone of voice that I don't debate rights, and then walk off. If he is a CC-only type, I'll chat a bit and see if I can soften his edges. The most effective handling I've found to date is to tell them right up front that I'm surprised by the number of positive comments I've gotten from strangers. "In six years of OCing, I can still count on one hand the number of negative comments from strangers, but I gave up counting the positive comments when it passed three dozen." That usually surprises them a bit. Most of the opposition from friends, family, and CC-only types seems to be something along the lines of "open carry just isn't done or makes you look like a rambo"--something that frequently boils down to being worried about what other people think. So, when I hand out personal experience regarding the number and type of comment, that usually starts the gears shifting right there.

If he's friendly, but curious, or even friendly but opposed, I'll usually just start in about defense of self and others. The old line about cops being minutes away when seconds count gets most who haven't heard it thinking.

What I don't do is talk much about rights--too many people just don't have the knowledge or care. At least, I don't talk about rights at the outset. If there is time and the conversation is progressing nicely, I might get into discussing rights. But, first I find out if there is any common ground at all on the subject of rights in general.
 

davidmcbeth

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For most people, arguments, not matter how sound, will not sway a person's opinion.

When someone asks you why you carry just say "Jesus told me to" and that will stop any negative argument ... they'll move along. Because ya can't argue with Jesus.

The strongest argument is to show that you do not wish to argue.
 

OC for ME

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For most people, arguments, not matter how sound, will not sway a person's opinion.

When someone asks you why you carry just say "Jesus told me to" and that will stop any negative argument ... they'll move along. Because ya can't argue with Jesus.

The strongest argument is to show that you do not wish to argue.
Of course they will argue with Jesus, via you. You being able to hear Jesus, it is logical to conclude that you may be able to speak to Jesus as well. Those who would argue with Jesus simply wish for you to pass along their message.

<snip> Or is that just crazy talk?, your thoughts?
Not crazy, just a matter of timing, the audience, and venue. I, and a few others here, advocate that that discussion/topic not be engaged in with a cop (audience), on the side of the road (timing and venue).

All ya really need to know is whether or not OC is legal in your jurisdiction, or where you happen to be OCing at the time. The rest is a legal discussion better suited to be held between your attorney and the state.

Over a cup of coffee with friends or whatever, go for it.....or not. I find it boring to try and convince the stupid, and easy to enlighten the ignorant.
 

stealthyeliminator

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Thats not what I was thinking in this topic, but it's nice that you confirm how I was planning to handle a police encounter. I was thinking more along the lines of defending open carry to friends, family, neighbors, and on other discussion boards where many accuse me of wanting to stir up trouble with police and set the neighbord into a panic state. Or at least one time, being accused of wanting to comment suicide by cop.


Something that says that is not putting any effort into understanding the position, beliefs, exercise, or you personally for that matter. In a case like that I'd probably just say that I'm sorry they feel that way and that probably one day they'll understand. Of course I'm reading a lot into it not being witness to the conversation, but it sounds like they have absolutely no intention of having a meaningful exchange of ideas and that, furthermore, they're actually attempting to be offensive and confrontational. Engaging with them would most likely work against one.
 

rushcreek2

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" Why do you feel it is necessary to carry a gun openly ?"

Why do people feel it is necessary to carry a spare tire when driving ?

Why do people who pay for home security systems place their security signs in front of their property ?

Why do they lock their doors - particularly at night ?

Is ONE reason you carry a cell phone because you want to be able to call "911" ?

I am the only person in my extended family that I am aware of who carries a handgun 24/7.

I don't really know what some of them think about my doing so - and I don't care.

I am PRO- CHOICE in that I choose to never be a defenseless target of a criminal threat.

A WOMAN is exponentially more likely to be targeted by a predatory criminal than a man.

I would also add from my personal "alarm trigger file" that a woman is far less likely to invoke "alarm" in public while wearing a holstered handgun than a man.

I hope these thoughts encourage you to persevere in your determination to not be anyone's victim of choice.
 
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tyc

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... During a police investigative encounter, your first priority is to protect your legal position, rather than try to persuade the cop or "out-argue" him ... don't "bring up" rights. You exercise them.

. "I don't consent to this encounter."

. "Am I free to leave?"

. "I don't consent to any searches."

. "I won't answer any questions without my attorney."

. "Why am I detained?"

. "What law am I suspected of breaking?"
.


People, as I know and understand it - it just won't get any simpler than this. Aside from what you see quoted above - just shut up!

"Citizen" did a nice job here. It is just that simple.

Just my opinion.

tyc
 
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