Police policies regarding OCers and people filming the police.

[sudden valley gunner]

This isn't directed at you, SVG.

I'm always leery of psychology. That article describes in psuedo-scientific terms what every son-in-law, salesman, and honest priest has understood since the beginning of time. All it did was categorize stuff and assign new names. What a contribution to philosophy. Stop the presses! Notify the Nobel prize committee! Ugh.

In the comments section, I agreed with the poster who mentioned errors in the article. The article set me into high suspicion when very early it said our brains could process a certain huge number (expressed exponentially) of data, but was slow at math. Huh!?!?!

Oh very true and not taking it personal.

I should have been more specific and pointed out it had some interesting thoughts about bias especially the personal one. On a second look it still is a fallacy contrary to the authors claim.

 

[PALO]

+1

PALO seems more than willing to forget that this country had almost NO tradition of a "professional" police force for the 1st 100 years...largely relying on local Sheriff's and the US Marshals working WITH armed local citizens. The traditions of NOT trusting the government, particularly armed portions of the government go back further than the Founding.

So, I guess I would ask him what anyone SHOULD do if it is obvious that you have a non-responsive or even abusive local PD in his "ideal" world?? Why would a police force WANT to make their SOP more detailed than necessary?? Without it, and in PALO's world, they can do what they want and not be held accountable unless they were "trained" properly. Too bad that ordinary citizens don't get that same benefit of the doubt and "training" to know what they can and cannot do.

I am not willing to forget that. IT's part of our history .

I already explained what somebody SHOULD do. It's just that the poor examples of civic responsibility in this thread think that's too much to ask of them. Better to whinge amongst fellow travelers on the internet about how X is bad vs. do Anything whatsoever to change X.

If your PD has poor practice and.or policies vis a vis filming the police or OC, what can you do?

You can attend a community meeting and make your concerns known. You can write an email to the chief explaining why the policy/practices are suboptimal or even illegal/unconstitutional and recommend change

That's what a RESPONSIBLE citizen does. He works for change. Heck, I've advocated for change in policies of MY pd that I thought were bad. I went to a community meeting and got a sign in our local park removed that prohibited carrying of firearms because it was violative of state pre-emption laws. The city was responsive and removed same. Problem solved.

MY PD had a bad policy of REQUIRING SWAT for all search warrants involving drugs. I wrote a memo explaining why this was bad. I wish Radley Balko's book about "warrior police" had been published at that time, because it offered ample anecdotes and reasoning as to why overuse of SWAT and the militarization of local police forces has been abusive towards the free citizens of our great nation.

Guess what? My agency changed the policy. SWAT is now ONLY utilized in "high risk" warrants which are determined by a detailed risk matrix that is filled out before each warrant. On medium and low risk warrants, patrol or street crimes units are utilized. Same are much less 'dynamic". No flash bangs or battering rams or any of that stuff

Working for change is what responsible citizens do. They don't sit by KNOWING injustice is present in their PD policies and prefer that people's rights get violated and lawsuits ensue VERSUS at least making a tiny effort to point out to the PD, who work FOR the public, how they could change and why

MY PD , per questionnaires (anonymous) we sent out gets great scores from our public in serving the public and being responsqive to community concerns. A PD can't be responsive to community concerns if the COMMUNITY (of which citizen et al are part of) refuse to give any input!

I take solace in the fact that polling data confirms conclusively that the public overwhelmingly considers cops honest and professional (gallup poll) and that we rank near the top of professions (below nurses and miltiary members for instance) in this regard.

Modern policing has moved towards community policing (thank god) to some extent and away from impersonal standoffishness (thank god)

But people like the irresponsibles in this thread who take no responsibiklity whatsoever in advocating for positive change, when they see clearcut violations by their local PD are simply part of the problem, not part of the solution. They have only themselves to blame for the poor government they receive

cheers

 

[March Hare]

<snip>
But people like the irresponsibles in this thread who take no responsibiklity whatsoever in advocating for positive change, when they see clearcut violations by their local PD are simply part of the problem, not part of the solution. They have only themselves to blame for the poor government they receive

cheers

I think you will find that part of the reason for people being reluctant to get involved with the Police is a PR problem.
It is a problem of their own making; the police, that is.

We have seen years, if not decades of police misusing and abusing their legal powers.
We have witnessed the progressive militarization of the Police, use of excessive to extreme force against Citizens (not civilians), and a seeming increase of the height, width and depth of the 'Blue Wall of Silence'.

I have seen the Police, decked out in full 'Battle Rattle', at a parade. I asked once if they were expecting trouble, they said 'no, we're just here to observe the parade'. Really?

My sons, who are law abiding Citizens, will say 'Uh oh, Police' whenever they see them, whether on foot or in a car. It's sad when everyone is wary of the Police because the perception is that nothing good will come of any contact with them.
And that is coming from Eagle Scouts!

They are seen as pseudo-military force out looking for reasons to put people in jail, and they do nothing to change that perception.
It seems they would rather be feared than respected.

We can go to meetings, send letters and emails, but rarely do we see changes put in place.
That's where the lawsuit comes in, it shines the glaring light of the Law on them and forces them to comply with the Law.

This is, in my opinion, the problem the Police are up against, a massive PR problem.
It's not that we don't like them as people, we just don't trust them.

Take it for what it's worth, it is, after all, just my opinion.

-MH

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

Good point.

I wonder if his department knows about all the great PR he's doing for them here.

Actually, I'm kinda glad for the exercise. Haven't had a good statist cop to chew up by exposing his anti-freedom thinking and pathetic debate tactics for a while now.

Oh, and who do you suppose was the snitch that warned him about us trolls and ilk?

I am wondering if his department isn't the one that sic'd him on us for the aforementioned "bridge building". Cross dressing wolves in the herd, and all that.

And although his collectivist "commune" type thinking keeps opening up my cache of "medicinal" alcohol (for the ensuing headache from :banghead, I do find it amusing to see everyone lambasting him and his bait so thoroughly. Vive la Logic!!!

 

[Gunslinger]

Rubbish. The idea that you would rather let bad policy stand andor no policy stand where they should be one, and instead look to suing etc. as recourse is imo a disgusting attitude. It evidences exactly what I suspect about some people's motivations.

You can either help fix an unjust policy BEFORE it results in people's rights being further trampled or let bad policy sit and wait for bad stuff to happen and then sue?

Imo, that's very revealing

It shows that you have an us vs. them mentality and no sense of civic duty. Cops are public servants. They are supposed to work FOR you and with you. The enemy is the criminals, NOT the cops.

If there is bad policy in your local PD, somebody with civic duty, should want to see those wrong addressed right away so no further harm happens.

Police are FAR from perfect and if you know that your local PD policies are lacking in regards to for example OCing, a responsible person would want to help FIX the problem at the beginning, not wait for it to manifest itself in rights violations.

Again, this attitude is immensely revealing about motive and helping your fellow man.

Sitting back on your heels when you KNOW that bad stuff is going to happen, and wanting to wait for it to happen vs. HELPING?

Seriously, I don't think any post you could make is more revealing of your us vs. them mentality.

I find it quite sad.

The enemy is indeed the criminals. The sad part is so many of them wear badges. You seem to be an intelligent person, yet you clearly can't see the forest for the trees. Being anti-thug is not being anti-cop. We have some of the finest police in the country here in COS--particularly the El Paso County Sheriff's Department. They still make mistakes, but their leadership is willing to admit it, fix it and move on. That is a rarity among police forces, as the news clearly shows. Cover up crimes, Blue wall of silence, coerced cooperation from the prosecutors, judges who are too stupid to find facts, being easier just to believe a cop because he is a cop, Traffic qua Kangaroo courts, ad nauseum. For the community to work with the cops pre-assumes their willingness. That is rarely the case. Their leadership is political with only self-serving interests in their own rice bowls.

 

[()pen(arry]

Very well said +1 Would you mind if I jplagerize this a bit , change it a bit and reuse it?

There's no copyright on truth A reference to source wouldn't be unwelcome, but as you see fit.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Duke Lacrosse, Mike Nifong, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton all classic examples of community involvement with law enforcement. In the end the real solution is putting those responsible in jail or at least out of a job. Training is no excuse for lack of common sense and a sense of power and entitlement.

 

[Superlite27]

When I was three, my mother did her "civic duty" and explained that the neat looking orange disk on the stove was very hot and I was never to touch it. She knelt down and made sure she had my undivided attention, and said, "NO TOUCH! Hear, me? NO TOUCH!".

I consider that a very productive "community service" she attempted to perform. She made her point quite clearly. She attempted to prevent a potential problem. She took responsibility for training me the correct method of dealing with a hot burner.

Guess what I did the first second she was out of the room?

Can anyone guess how I learned to NEVER F**K WITH A HOT STOVE?!?

According to PALO, when officers look with their own eyes at the law they're supposed to know and interact with members of the public that are OC'ing, filming the police, or both.....

We're supposed to kneel down and explain to them (When it's THEIR duty to know the laws they're enforcing in the first place) and explain to them "NO TOUCH!". When they keep reaching toward the stove, we're supposed to keep explaining, "NO TOUCH!" like any good mother. However, when they finally touch that hot burner of a well informed and litigiously competent OC'er........


.....it's OUR FAULT for not doing our "civic duty"?


IMHO, some methods work better than others when training three year olds and police departments.

 

[wizzi01]

Palo only cares about what his point is. If you are against him you are somehow demeaning him and name calling.

 

[PALO]

Palo only cares about what his point is. If you are against him you are somehow demeaning him and name calling.

Rubbish. You clearly have an issue with reading comprehension. Plenty of people here civilly agree or disagree and we have wonderful discourse. There's a small cadre of close minded bigots I was given ample warning about who engage otherwise. They've outed themselves, so I have the benefit of knowing who they are and not having to respond to their rubbish, but engaging with the adults here. Here's a hint. Adults discuss ISSUES. These guys spend post after post discussing personality "did you see what Palo did there?" derp derp derp

I went to high school. Some people never grow out of it.

Come out into the light and read threads where we (normal ADULTS) discourse about topics and you will see the distinction.

It's quite robust

cheers

(cue: more inane posts about me and what I allegedly do that have no basis in reality)

 

[WalkingWolf]

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

[video=youtube;YWyCCJ6B2WE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE[/video]

 

[eye95]

I have watched folks not address what PALO is saying and attack him personally instead.

I have watched other folks disagree with him on point.

Unfortunately, it is hazardous around here to go against the dogma.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

 

[Citizen]

SNIP Unfortunately, it is hazardous around here to go against the dogma.

What's hazardous is to spout anti-freedom dogma and not be able to back those opinions with sound rationale, and to dodge and evade.

As for name calling, you should see some of the filth pouring from PALOs keyboard on other threads. He's resorted to sexual references I last heard in the military.

 

[Jared]

Some people have had negative experiences with the cops while OCing and some have had negative experiences with the cops while filming them. Some have had both!

Disclosure: I've OC'd and filmed the police many times w/o problems

Considering especially recent case law, cops should not interfere with people filming them (except in very limited circumstances like telling the person to step back from the crime scene etc. which would apply equally to a person not filming), and in states that allow OC, cops should not interfere in any way with an OCer.

Yet, some cops DO interfere.

In deciding whether ofc. complaints are valid and also the punishment merited, one of the most important factors that investigators look at is training. Iow, ofc's are generally not responsible for researching case law on their own (I do this but I love reading case law), and keeping updated with it. If an officer engages in misconduct either with an OCer or a filmer and the dept. cannot show that they at least provided roll call training on these subjects OR have written policy governing these issues, often the complaint cannot be sustained for that reason. They say ignorance of the law is no excuse, but in cases like this - frankly, it often is. Whinge about it if you want, but especially when it comes down to binding arbitration this is an incredibly important issue - did the officer act contrary to training? Did the officer act contrary to common practice?

ESPECIALLY if an officer can show that not only wasn't he trained to respond to OCers and filmers in a certain way, but that other officers have responded similarly to his response and not been disciplined, the case will almost certainly be non-sustained or exonerated.

Police General Orders and Policies and Procedures are PUBLICALLY DISCLOSABLE documents.

Imo, one of the most important things a citizen (noncop) can do is attend community meetings that cops attend (at least my agency does) and address these concerns. It's quite possible your local agency HAS NO POLICY regarding OCers or filmers. I recently attended a community meeting to address a sign in a local park that said "firearms prohibited". Needless to say my hometown cannot prohibit firearms in public parks and they took the sign down. Simple.

Police officers are public servants. They work for YOU. And it is incumbent upon the average concerned citizen (not just politicians and cop-o-crats) to assure that their local PD's policies and GO's are consistent with the law AND respectful of the rights of OCers and filmers.

My agency fwiw, has excellent training and policy on both issues, so ofc's CAN be held accountable for acting contrary to training.

How many OCers here have read their local PD's GO manual or Policies and procedures? How many have attended community meetings where the cops are open to citizen inquiry and complaint and made their concerns known?

Grumbling in the echo chamber here amidst fellow travelers is cathartic but it doesn't accomplish anything vs. getting the police to create policy that protects us (OCers and filmers) and ensuring that ofc's who act contrary to same can be held accountable

I would suggest few to none have done this

Cops work for YOU. Considering that, I would argue it's not just a good idea, but it's a civic duty to keep an eye on your local PD and one way you can do that is to get a copy of their manuals and inquire about their training in these areas. It's a matter of taking personal responsibility to oversee those who are serving you every day.

Palo,

Two things.

1. Washington State is OC friendly because of a lot of OC activists. Before all these people joined in, one of the more noticeable people was my buddy Gray Peterson who was hassled and threatened 8 years ago by many PD's in Washington for OC (same nonsense in Oregon). So these training officers are a little late to the party, but it's better late than never.

2. Police are held to a lower standard. For example, 18 USC 925 exempts government agents/employee's from all federal criminal gun prohibitions (felonies, illegal alien, etc) except for Lautenburg Domestic Violence. Many states do not prohibit prohibited possessors from being LEO's (most prohibit felons but they forget about all the other laundry list disqualifiers).

I've been a LEO for almost a decade and the abuses I see online are sickening. 5 minutes on Photogragraphyisnotacrime.com will make any moral person feel sick and copblock.org sometimes has some good stuff on it. Not to mention reason magazine has so many stories that are sick as well.

I know that in Michigan none of the misdemeanor disqualifiers for a CPL apply to cops so there are cops in Michigan who would be prohibited by law from obtaining a concealed pistol license due to violent criminal convictions (or DUI's) but they can carry a gun in MI with impunity and they can also carry under LEOSA because LEOSA does not address state disqualifiers.

For these reasons cops are held to a lower standard, and it's not the burden of everyone else to fix these issues.

 

[PALO]

Palo,

Two things.

1. Washington State is OC friendly because of a lot of OC activists. Before all these people joined in, one of the more noticeable people was my buddy Gray Peterson who was hassled and threatened 8 years ago by many PD's in Washington for OC (same nonsense in Oregon). So these training officers are a little late to the party, but it's better late than never.

2. Police are held to a lower standard. For example, 18 USC 925 exempts government agents/employee's from all federal criminal gun prohibitions (felonies, illegal alien, etc) except for Lautenburg Domestic Violence. Many states do not prohibit prohibited possessors from being LEO's (most prohibit felons but they forget about all the other laundry list disqualifiers).

I've been a LEO for almost a decade and the abuses I see online are sickening. 5 minutes on Photogragraphyisnotacrime.com will make any moral person feel sick and copblock.org sometimes has some good stuff on it. Not to mention reason magazine has so many stories that are sick as well.

I know that in Michigan none of the misdemeanor disqualifiers for a CPL apply to cops so there are cops in Michigan who would be prohibited by law from obtaining a concealed pistol license due to violent criminal convictions (or DUI's) but they can carry a gun in MI with impunity and they can also carry under LEOSA because LEOSA does not address state disqualifiers.

For these reasons cops are held to a lower standard, and it's not the burden of everyone else to fix these issues.

Good info, spanx.

I don't think it;'s the burden of others to fix THOSE issues. I was very specific in my post what I think falls under the civic duty umbrella.

E.g. Your local PD harasses OCers. Your local PD has no policy regarding OCers. You and your friends ARE OCers

As a community member/OCer, I would feel a civic duty to either email the police chief, contact the ombudsman (if they have one), attend a community meeting, etc. iow do SOMETHING to at least draw attention to this problem and give insight into the correct way to handle OCers. And like I said, in MY community, we work closely with the police and community input is a huge determinant in how our PD does their job - what areas they concentrate on, how they handle certain kind of details, etc.

If your local PD is harassing OCers and you are an OCer, imo it IS your civic duty to DO something about it vs. sitting on your okole and wanking on the internet about it (which accomplishes nothing).

I especially take umbrage with the "it's not my job man! It's the police depts job to write their own policies!" and that with that in mind, this type of person WANTS the PD to keep doing what they are doing so he can see them sued (which only HARMs the community. it doesn't hurt the PD. It hurts the city and ultimately the taxpayers) and see cops get in trouble.

That's just rubbish, imo

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. That's how I see it.

Others can disagree. Groovy. That's what makes an interesting discussion. I've had and am having plenty of interesting discussion. There are a few trolls in this particular thread who are interested in personal attacks, contrasted with the vast majority of the people here who are totally kewl. That's groovy too, because now that I know who to ignore, it's much more pleasant here, discoursing with adults who discuss issues, not devolve to personality attacks and talking back and forth to each other about their inane analysis of my psyche, acting like a bunch of schoolkids in a clique. It's ridiculous. Elsewhere, we adults are having civil discussions. Much better

I appreciate your insight and I totally agree about the abuses. Thank god people have video cameras etc. to catch bad actors in the act. I film cops frequently too. I know it protects the good cops (the vast majority of cops) and it helps to see the bad cops get corrected or if necesary, punished.

Your last sentence doesn't reference my point about what it IS the burden of citizens to "fix".

And to make one last point about civic duty, people generally get the govt. they deserve. Those OCers, filmers etc. could quite possibly effect positive change, with something as simple as writing an email. The "it's not MY responsibility, brah" doesn't fly with me. We have a govt. of and by the people. It most definitely IS our responsibility to keep a watchful eye on the govt, and to at least take very easy and minimal actions to try to right the wrongs we see. These people claim they have a craptastic PD and these same people claim they have no duty to DO anything about it. Again, they get the govt. they deserve. Frankly, I think in a perverse way they'd rather have a craptastic pd so they can have somethng to rail about, an "other" to hate and vent their spew upon.

cheers

 

[sudden valley gunner]

PALO, I think you are missing the point we shouldn't have to go get things corrected, many of us do, the point is we need to be left alone.

If we are not being left alone the blame doesn't lay on the victim the blame always lays upon the aggressor.

This next point is tongue in cheek but makes a point.....so nobody get worked up about it...

You compared it to having a moral obligation to help your neighbor out if their house is burning does that mean the cops are the fire or they are the arsonist? The homeowner would be the one that is being bothered does he have a civic duty to train fire not to burn him?

Should someone walking down the street expect they won't get raped, or do they have a civic duty to go warn and train all potential rapist that they should limit their activities into ones that are allowed by law?

Just recently I wrote an essay/op ed thing....about their being no power vacuum...a few of the things I mentioned here are mentioned there.

 

[carolina guy]

Good info, spanx.

I don't think it;'s the burden of others to fix THOSE issues. I was very specific in my post what I think falls under the civic duty umbrella.

E.g. Your local PD harasses OCers. Your local PD has no policy regarding OCers. You and your friends ARE OCers

As a community member/OCer, I would feel a civic duty to either email the police chief, contact the ombudsman (if they have one), attend a community meeting, etc. iow do SOMETHING to at least draw attention to this problem and give insight into the correct way to handle OCers. And like I said, in MY community, we work closely with the police and community input is a huge determinant in how our PD does their job - what areas they concentrate on, how they handle certain kind of details, etc.

If your local PD is harassing OCers and you are an OCer, imo it IS your civic duty to DO something about it vs. sitting on your okole and wanking on the internet about it (which accomplishes nothing).

I can partially agree with you, when I see unprofessional actions with our local PD or SO, I am not at all shy about emailing the Chief or Sheriff, often with video or photos of the problem. Then it becomes their problem to correct the issue. They are paid higher than average salaries and given greater leeway than average citizens and SHOULD do their job. Period.

I especially take umbrage with the "it's not my job man! It's the police depts job to write their own policies!" and that with that in mind, this type of person WANTS the PD to keep doing what they are doing so he can see them sued (which only HARMs the community. it doesn't hurt the PD. It hurts the city and ultimately the taxpayers) and see cops get in trouble.

That's just rubbish, imo

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. That's how I see it.

Not always true...overly broad generalizations are almost always wrong (including this one)

Others can disagree. Groovy. That's what makes an interesting discussion. I've had and am having plenty of interesting discussion. There are a few trolls in this particular thread who are interested in personal attacks, contrasted with the vast majority of the people here who are totally kewl. That's groovy too, because now that I know who to ignore, it's much more pleasant here, discoursing with adults who discuss issues, not devolve to personality attacks and talking back and forth to each other about their inane analysis of my psyche, acting like a bunch of schoolkids in a clique. It's ridiculous. Elsewhere, we adults are having civil discussions. Much better

I appreciate your insight and I totally agree about the abuses. Thank god people have video cameras etc. to catch bad actors in the act. I film cops frequently too. I know it protects the good cops (the vast majority of cops) and it helps to see the bad cops get corrected or if necesary, punished.

Your last sentence doesn't reference my point about what it IS the burden of citizens to "fix".

And to make one last point about civic duty, people generally get the govt. they deserve. Those OCers, filmers etc. could quite possibly effect positive change, with something as simple as writing an email. The "it's not MY responsibility, brah" doesn't fly with me. We have a govt. of and by the people. It most definitely IS our responsibility to keep a watchful eye on the govt, and to at least take very easy and minimal actions to try to right the wrongs we see. These people claim they have a craptastic PD and these same people claim they have no duty to DO anything about it. Again, they get the govt. they deserve. Frankly, I think in a perverse way they'd rather have a craptastic pd so they can have somethng to rail about, an "other" to hate and vent their spew upon.

cheers

Based on your logic, there is nothing further to be concerned about with NY/NJ/MA/CA/etc...they got the government they deserve.

Please do not forget that the 1A acknowledges the RIGHT to petition the government to redress grievances. Often times the only way it can happen is either elections or the courts. This is what makes the country work. Your suggestions are a "nice thing to have" but are not essential. Elections and Courts are essential else we have armed insurrection.

 

[carolina guy]

PALO, I think you are missing the point we shouldn't have to go get things corrected, many of us do, the point is we need to be left alone.

If we are not being left alone the blame doesn't lay on the victim the blame always lays upon the aggressor.

This next point is tongue in cheek but makes a point.....so nobody get worked up about it...

You compared it to having a moral obligation to help your neighbor out if their house is burning does that mean the cops are the fire or they are the arsonist? The homeowner would be the one that is being bothered does he have a civic duty to train fire not to burn him?

Should someone walking down the street expect they won't get raped, or do they have a civic duty to go warn and train all potential rapist that they should limit their activities into ones that are allowed by law?

Just recently I wrote an essay/op ed thing....about their being no power vacuum...a few of the things I mentioned here are mentioned there.

+1

If someone does not understand leaving someone alone (not bother them) who is doing nothing wrong by the end of 2nd grade, we have a problem. Usually, parents and teachers can correct this over a few years, sometimes by talking, sometimes with various forms of discipline. I expect to have to do this with MY kids...but I am not responsible for doing this for someone else's adult children.

Too often, once someone gets their badge and gun, this simple lesson is forgotten. Unfortunately, we have allowed the government to shield them from the effects of their misbehavior, leaving us with a few options:

1) (PALO's choice) "Pester/nag them until they behave" ... usually not effective, but not always.
2) "Take away their recess time and toys until they learn" ... civil suit and sometimes quite effective.
3) "Kick them out of school" ... aka jail time and the most effective.


Power corrupts and should not be trusted.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

+1

If someone does not understand leaving someone alone (not bother them) who is doing nothing wrong by the end of 2nd grade, we have a problem. Usually, parents and teachers can correct this over a few years, sometimes by talking, sometimes with various forms of discipline. I expect to have to do this with MY kids...but I am not responsible for doing this for someone else's adult children.

Too often, once someone gets their badge and gun, this simple lesson is forgotten. Unfortunately, we have allowed the government to shield them from the effects of their misbehavior, leaving us with a few options:

1) (PALO's choice) "Pester/nag them until they behave" ... usually not effective, but not always.
2) "Take away their recess time and toys until they learn" ... civil suit and sometimes quite effective.
3) "Kick them out of school" ... aka jail time and the most effective.


Power corrupts and should not be trusted.

Nice analogies!

This just spawned a thought.... They have that saying absolute power corrupts absolutely, which may be true, but in reality who are the ones we really have to fear it is those invested with seemingly petty power, these are the ones that are out there so eager to exercise the little power invested in them.

 

[OC for ME]

<snip>

E.g. Your local PD harasses OCers. Your local PD has no policy regarding OCers. You and your friends ARE OCers

As a community member/OCer, I would feel a civic duty to either email the police chief, contact the ombudsman (if they have one), attend a community meeting, etc. iow do SOMETHING to at least draw attention to this problem and give insight into the correct way to handle OCers. And like I said, in MY community, we work closely with the police and community input is a huge determinant in how our PD does their job - what areas they concentrate on, how they handle certain kind of details, etc.

If your local PD is harassing OCers and you are an OCer, imo it IS your civic duty to DO something about it vs. sitting on your okole and wanking on the internet about it (which accomplishes nothing).

<snip>

These statements once again clearly reveal who PALO is and what he stands for. He continues to place the blame for OC only stops on the citizen being stopped and not on the cop who stops the citizen. He is anti-liberty and thus anti-citizen.

If OC is legal, in your jurisdiction, then no policy one way or the other is required or should exist, written or verbal. Thus no training is required until the law that affects OC is changed. The law, or lack thereof is what it is. If cops are stopping folks for OC that cop is violating the law and must be held accountable. A informal meeting with that cop's boss is prudent to inform him that his minion did 'X' and that his minion will be subject to a civil action.