open carry

[dizzle2]

What does not make sense about it?

At 18 to 20 years old, you can open carry a loaded handgun in your house, in an apartment that you live in, in an RV that your are living in, or in a hotel room that you are renting and possibly in a tent that you are camping in. That is your place of abode. You can open carry a loaded handgun in a business that you are the proprietor of. You can open carry a loaded handgun on property that is under your control. In any of those places, you cannot carry concealed, you may only open carry. In any other location, you are prohibited from possessing a handgun, EXCEPT under the circumstances listed in 9.41.060 or 9.41.042.

Some of the more common circumstances are: carrying an unloaded handgun in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper, while hunting, fishing or hiking and when going directly to hunting/fishing/hiking. And as a member of club, such as Central Whidbey Sportsman Association, you can possess the handgun while target shooting. That's it. These exceptions are also exceptions to concealed carry, so under these exceptions you can conceal or open carry.

Thanks NavyLT. i just read the law breakdown you originally posted and it answers the same question. however, why doesn't it matter if it is unloaded or not because in California you can open carry if the gun is unloaded. so mags on one side of the body and unloaded gun on the other.

 

[Ruby]

unfortunately once again you are wrong Dave.

Having been in the military as both a dependent and Active Duty I can tell you that there is currently NO post/base/field/station/anything else where commanders allow anyone under the age of 21 to drink.

Just because it was ok when you were in back in the post vietnam era when pot was legal in the service does not mean that everything is still the same and that you still know everything.

Believe it or not, everything has changed and you are now just an old timer trying to live the good old days. Sucks to hear but it is the truth. Not trying to be a dick, just letting you know.

Now now now, DevilDoc, I like you and all that, but it doesn't bode well for you to be disrespectful of your elders. I realize things have changed a lot, and not just in the service. I am an old timer as well and happy to have been in the service at that time and not now. I am not criticizing, but it was a good time for me. One day, grasshopper, if you live long enough, you will understand and relive your youth from time to time also. I know it's hard for you to imagine, but things were actually far better then than they are now, and I am not being sarcastic at all. Also, AFAIK, pot has NEVER been legal in the service, nor was under age drinking. However, underage drinking was tolerated on base because they would rather we drank there than off base. I had no problem being served alcohol on base at 18. We drank beer at the bowling alley and harder stuff at the NCO club. Ah yes, the good old days. I have some fond memories of those times.

 

[Ruby]

You took my answer right out of my keyboard! lol I was stationed at 32nd street Nav Sta San Diego from 72-76. The gals off base were fantastic California 10's! On base (gasp/gag) For the most part, we wanted them to keep their shirts on! lol

Well I was in the Army and a WAC and considered a very attractive one at that! Lots of cute gals in my company, from all over the country. Of course, some of the unifoms and shoes weren't that attractive, but we still managed to look pretty good! Hush your mouth!

 

[Ruby]

I meant no disrespect with my previous 2 posts. I realize that there was a very unpopular war going on at that time ('60's) and it was not a good time for a heck of a lot of people. I meant no disrespect to them; I was only referencing my own experience.

 

[.45ACPaddy]

What does not make sense about it?

At 18 to 20 years old, you can open carry a loaded handgun in your house, in an apartment that you live in, in an RV that your are living in, or in a hotel room that you are renting and possibly in a tent that you are camping in. That is your place of abode. You can open carry a loaded handgun in a business that you are the proprietor of. You can open carry a loaded handgun on property that is under your control. In any of those places, you cannot carry concealed, you may only open carry. In any other location, you are prohibited from possessing a handgun, EXCEPT under the circumstances listed in 9.41.060 or 9.41.042.

Some of the more common circumstances are: carrying an unloaded handgun in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper, while hunting, fishing or hiking and when going directly to hunting/fishing/hiking. And as a member of club, such as Central Whidbey Sportsman Association, you can possess the handgun while target shooting. That's it. These exceptions are also exceptions to concealed carry, so under these exceptions you can conceal or open carry.

Well, hold on.

According to RCW 9.41.050 (underline added by me):

(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

As far as I know, you can CC in your house without a permit. 9.41.240 doesn't restrict concealed carry, it just talks about possession.

 

[joejoejoe]

Well, joejoejoe and dizzle2, that is an excellent question. Can someone "California Carry" at any age? Now, begin your research. Report back, and let us know what you find... with references. Homework, don't you love it?!

I did my homework. To my understanding, he is OK to open carry unloaded. My question was: did anyone else come to that conclusion? I wasn't asking for an answer, I was asking for a conformation. I would hate to say "Yeah, go ahead, open carry unloaded" only to find out I read it all wrong. So again, it looks like he is OK to open carry unloaded as long as the gun is holstered.

Joe~

 

[Bill Starks]

Inside a vehicle you cannot have a loaded handgun without a CPL, period. No exceptions.

Ahh but there is an exception... RCW 9.41.060

(8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

 

[BigDave]

I did my homework. To my understanding, he is OK to open carry unloaded. My question was: did anyone else come to that conclusion? I wasn't asking for an answer, I was asking for a conformation. I would hate to say "Yeah, go ahead, open carry unloaded" only to find out I read it all wrong. So again, it looks like he is OK to open carry unloaded as long as the gun is holstered.

Joe~

Well no and yes but explore the issue of being loaded or not, lets start with the one RCW that is at the heart of this age group and carrying/possession of a handgun.

RCW 9.41.240 Possession of pistol by person from eighteen to twenty-one.

Unless an exception under RCW 9.41.042, 9.41.050, or 9.41.060 applies, a person at least eighteen years of age, but less than twenty-one years of age, may possess a pistol only:

(1) In the person's place of abode;

(2) At the person's fixed place of business; or

(3) On real property under his or her control.

[1994 sp.s. c 7 § 423; 1971 c 34 § 1; 1909 c 249 § 308; 1883 p 67 § 1; RRS § 2560.]
​

These are pretty tight restrictions on this age group but does not restrict concealed or open carry in these places listed above (place of abode; fixed place of business; or real property under his or her control.) and note it is also covered in RCW 9.41.050.(place of abode or fixed place of business).

A persons place of abode* ranges from your house, apartment, RV if you are living in it at the time while setup as a resident (not driving down the road), Hotel/Motel to a tent if you are out camping. The place of abode is with in our upon that residence as an attached garage while an unattached garage is not your place of abode, your deck or porch if it is attached to the primary residence and not your front/back yards nor out building.

Remember we are talking about handguns, it does not matter when carrying one if it is loaded or not in Washington State Law as in California (they do not intermix).

As we look at the exceptions in RCW 9.41.240 Possession of pistol by person from eighteen to twenty-one.

RCW 9.41.042 Children — Permissible firearm possession.

RCW 9.41.040(2)(a)(iii) shall not apply to any person under the age of eighteen years who is:
(1) In attendance at a hunter's safety course or a firearms safety course;
(2) Engaging in practice in the use of a firearm or target shooting at an established range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located or any other area where the discharge of a firearm is not prohibited;
(3) Engaging in an organized competition involving the use of a firearm, or participating in or practicing for a performance by an organized group that uses firearms as a part of the performance;
(4) Hunting or trapping under a valid license issued to the person under Title 77 RCW;
(5) In an area where the discharge of a firearm is permitted, is not trespassing, and the person either: (a) Is at least fourteen years of age, has been issued a hunter safety certificate, and is using a lawful firearm other than a pistol; or (b) is under the supervision of a parent, guardian, or other adult approved for the purpose by the parent or guardian;
(6) Traveling with any unloaded firearm in the person's possession to or from any activity described in subsection (1), (2), (3), (4), or (5) of this section;
(7) On real property under the control of his or her parent, other relative, or legal guardian and who has the permission of the parent or legal guardian to possess a firearm;
(8) At his or her residence and who, with the permission of his or her parent or legal guardian, possesses a firearm for the purpose of exercising the rights specified in RCW 9A.16.020(3); or
(9) Is a member of the armed forces of the United States, national guard, or organized reserves, when on duty.
[2003 c 53 § 27; 1999 c 143 § 2; 1994 sp.s. c 7 § 403.]

RCW 9.41.050 Carrying firearms.

(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.


​

RCW 9.41.060 Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.

(6) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of target shooting, when those members are at or are going to or from their places of target practice;

(7) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of modern and antique firearm collecting, when those members are at or are going to or from their collector's gun shows and exhibits;

(8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

(9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

​

*abode has been defined in Washington State Court of Appeals in two cases to my knowledge one (35 Wn. App. 96, STATE v. HALEY) being where a teenager was displaying and shooting in the direction of two children from his attached deck, was cited found guilty to have it over turned later in the court of appeals under RCW 9.41.270. Another case
(118 Wn. App. 480, State v. Smith) involved him displaying a firearm to scare off Tow Truck Drivers across his backyard fence and the conviction was up held also under 9.41.270 and for your research can be found here http://www.mrsc.org/wa/courts/index_dtSearch.html

35 Wn. App. 96, STATE v. HALEY [1-3] The Legislature did not define the words "place of abode" used in this statute. In the absence of a statutory definition, the words used are given their ordinary and usual meaning. STATE v. FORRESTER, 21 Wn. App. 855, 861, 587 P.2d 179 (1978). The ordinary meaning of abode is: one's home, place of dwelling, residence, and/ or domicile. Black's Law Dictionary 20 (4th rev. ed. 1968); 1 OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY 25 (1978). From the description given of the deck and its surroundings, and in light of the rule that criminal statutes are to be construed strictly against the State and in favor of the accused, SEATTLE v. GREEN, 51 Wn.2d 871, 874, 322 P.2d 842 (1958), we hold the deck was an extension of the dwelling and therefore a part of the abode. Thus, the court erred in refusing to apply the exception.

Reversed.

CONCURRING JUDGES:

Roe, C.J., and Munson, J., concur.

July 2003 State v. Smith 485
118 Wn. App. 480
A backyard does not satisfy the place of abode exception under RCW 9.41.270.«8» Accordingly, we affirm Smith's conviction.
Affirmed.
COLEMAN and KENNEDY, JJ., concur.

 

[dizzle2]

I did my homework. To my understanding, he is OK to open carry unloaded. My question was: did anyone else come to that conclusion? I wasn't asking for an answer, I was asking for a conformation. I would hate to say "Yeah, go ahead, open carry unloaded" only to find out I read it all wrong. So again, it looks like he is OK to open carry unloaded as long as the gun is holstered.

Joe~

yeah it turns out ajetpilot thought we were in california. lol

 

[Trigger Dr]

oh come on. could you at least give me the title to look in........

Talk about lazy!!!

 

[dizzle2]

Talk about lazy!!!

hey! i just got done searching the califoria codes(thanks ajetpilot.lol) and i didnt feel like doing it for wa too.

 

[dizzle2]

If you are going to open carry a handgun in WA state between the ages of 18 to 20 years old, I would recommend that you become intimately familiar with WA laws. Or move to California if you like their laws better.

i know. i just moved up from Socal 4 years ago and i would never move back. ever! ever! ever! ever! ever! ever! ever! ever! ever! ever! no ajetpilot told me my answer would be found if i searched for "california carry". dont ask me why...but i did. lol

 

[devildoc5]

from what I have seen in the RCW's I (unfortunately) have to agree with Dave.

The RCW's state plainly and clearly that "the possession of a firearm by and individual less than 21 yrs of age is unlawful except..."

That means Possession, plain and simple. It does not qualify that it must be loaded or in a holster or tie-dyed pink for that matter.

I know this isnt what the majority of us would like to see, however at THIS point in time it is what the law reads...

 

[dizzle2]

from what I have seen in the RCW's I (unfortunately) have to agree with Dave.

The RCW's state plainly and clearly that "the possession of a firearm by and individual less than 21 yrs of age is unlawful except..."

That means Possession, plain and simple. It does not qualify that it must be loaded or in a holster or tie-dyed pink for that matter.

I know this isnt what the majority of us would like to see, however at THIS point in time it is what the law reads...

yup i completely understand. but i will do my best to help greenisfaster and Kevin Schmadeka of the Freedom Restoration Project to get that law overturned and re-written.

 

[joejoejoe]

What I am getting at is, instead of worrying about exceptions of where you should load and unload your gun, just California carry. Don't use a revolver because loading time takes too long! Just get a nice magazine and holster it on your person the same way you would holster your handgun. If you wanna keep putting the magazine in and taking it out every time you enter into one of those restricted areas, then do all the homework! Otherwise, keep the clip out and you'll be fine.

Joe~

 

[devildoc5]

joe3 the only problem is the law itself states "possession" but does not clarify if that means loaded or unloaded possession.

To be on the "legally safe side" I would advise AGAINST carrying as it couldbe considered possession....

 

[BigDave]

Joe,

How do you propose that "California carry" gets him around the prohibition contained in RCW 9.41.240?

Respectfully, "California carry" does not mean squat in Washington State. "California carry" creates no additional exceptions to WA statutes - where and when a person can carry a firearm or the age limit. (With the exception of open carrying an unloaded handgun in a vehicle without a CPL - but the age limit still applies then as well.)

Carrying ALWAYS equals possession. You can not carry something that you are not in possession of! Unless MAYBE it was in a locked container to which the person carrying the container had no key or other access... then MAYBE they could get out of being in possession of what was in the container.

Please leave the idea of "California carry" in...well... California!

Ditto.

Earlier in this thread it was brought up about doing some homework or research and even when it is spelled out where no work other then reading and comprehending some still do not get the idea.:uhoh:

 

[devildoc5]

Perhaps if we ALL read and FOLLOWED the thread titled "dealing with newbies" this would not feel like pulling teeth to some of us...

 

[OrangeIsTrouble]

Or we could just not take things personally (unless of course they are a personal attack) and crack open a can of man! See my new thread for "18-20" carry. I think I might have done more homework than some of you.

 

[joejoejoe]

Joe,

How do you propose that "California carry" gets him around the prohibition contained in RCW 9.41.240?

Unless an exception under RCW 9.41.042, 9.41.050, or 9.41.060 applies

RCW 9.41.060
Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.


The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:

(1) Marshals, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens or their deputies, or other law enforcement officers of this state or another state;

(2) Members of the armed forces of the United States or of the national guard or organized reserves, when on duty;

(3) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed pistol;

(4) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of the person, if possessing, using, or carrying a pistol in the usual or ordinary course of the business;

(5) Regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive pistols from the United States or from this state;

(6) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of target shooting, when those members are at or are going to or from their places of target practice;

(7) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of modern and antique firearm collecting, when those members are at or are going to or from their collector's gun shows and exhibits;

(8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

(9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

(10) Law enforcement officers retired for service or physical disabilities, except for those law enforcement officers retired because of mental or stress-related disabilities. This subsection applies only to a retired officer who has: (a) Obtained documentation from a law enforcement agency within Washington state from which he or she retired that is signed by the agency's chief law enforcement officer and that states that the retired officer was retired for service or physical disability; and (b) not been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of a crime making him or her ineligible for a concealed pistol license.

That's how..... unless I am reading it wrong.

Joe~