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OC stories Good/Bad

Hoosierdood

New member
Joined
Jul 17, 2011
Messages
4
Location
Lapaz (North Central)
Bad OC Experience at Marshall County Fair

I had this posted on another forum, and thought it would be good to post here too.


My family and I went to the Marshall County 4-H fair tonight (July 14, 2011), and I was OC as usual. I was walking around the fairgrounds with my family, looking at the exhibits, and animals. We even ate some fair food. As we were walking through the swine barn, I noticed an officer enter to the rear of the building. I also noticed him make his way toward me and my family as we were walking through the barn. As we were about to leave, the officer approached me and the conversation is as follows:

LEO: Sir, may I speak to you over here for a minute?
ME: OK
LEO: Are with an agency?
ME: No sir, I am not.
LEO: Do you have any identification on you?
ME: Yes I do.
LEO: Get it out please.
*NOTE - I did not make any movements until I was instructed to do so.
LEO: (takes ID) What are you doing?
ME: Pardon?
LEO: Why are you walking around with a gun?
ME: Because I can’t carry a cop on my back.
LEO: Because you can’t carry what?
ME: Because I can’t carry a cop on my back.
LEO: I’m getting calls from all over this fairgrounds about you. People are scared. Do you know what that is called?
ME: (Silent stare)
LEO: That’s called INTIMIDATION.
ME: No sir, that’s called me exercising my rights.
LEO: Get out your permit, because I know you have one.
ME: (hands over LICENSE)
LEO: You should know better than walk around here with a concealed carry permit, and your gun isn’t even concealed.
ME: Actually, sir it is a License to Carry, and it says nothing about carrying concealed.
LEO: You are supposed to have it concealed. Carrying like that is just pure stupidity.
ME: Show me where it says on my license anything about concealed…
LEO: Well people are getting upset. You know I can take this away from you? (holds up license)
ME: NOW who’s the one intimidating???
LEO: Well, I can have your permit taken away from you.
ME: For what exactly?
LEO: For carrying improperly.
ME: I’m not carrying improperly. I am well within my rights whether you or anyone else likes it or not.
LEO: Do you know what this place is?
ME: It’s the fairgrounds.
LEO: Is this private property or not?
ME: Well that depends.
LEO: Just answer the question. Is this private property or public? It’s a YES or NO question.
ME: Well, It is run by the Fair Board. Is the Fair Board a political subdivision?
LEO: You’re not going to answer the question are you?
ME: If the fair board is a political subdivision and gets its funding from public monies, then it is not private property.
LEO: No, this is private property. Do you know why that’s not allowed?
ME: I know that private property owners can set their own rules. And they can ask anyone to leave for any reason they see fit.
LEO: Well nobody wants guns here.
ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: It’s just pure stupidity to be walking around like that.
ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: Stay here for a minute.
*He goes about 30 feet away, and calls in my license. He then comes back.
LEO: You know this is private property right?
ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: (blank stare)
ME: Are you asking me to leave?
LEO: I’m asking you to leave.
ME: OK. Kids, lets go.
LEO: We have this same problem at the Blueberry Festival. People don’t know that it’s private property.
ME: Officer, do you have a card?
LEO: NO
ME: What is your name?
LEO: Officer Heckman.
ME: You mean Reserve Sheriffs Deputy Heckman. Can I borrow your pen to write that down?
LEO: No you can’t.
*He then follows us to our car, as my 5 year old is crying his eyes out, and says to me “Daddy, why did that cop make us leave?” I replied loud enough that the officer could hear “Because he is an elitist and thinks that only cops should carry guns.”

My kids are devastated, I am madder than a hornet, and my wife can’t believe what she just witnessed. I plan on calling the Marshall County Sheriffs Dept. to file a formal complaint. Before that time, I need to investigate the Fair Board and find out if they are in fact a political subdivision. If they are in fact a political subdivision, then I plan on informing the Sheriffs Dept. that I have the legal right to sue. We will see what happens…

****UPDATE****

I went to the Sheriffs Department today (July 15, 2011)to file a formal complaint. The receptionist and the deputies were very professional and courteous. I spoke with Chief Detective Ron Babcock and provided him a type written copy of the dialogue. As he was reading the transcript, he was muttering in a low tone "That's completely wrong", "He is incorrect", and "That's ridiculous". Once he was finished reading, he stated to me "Indiana does not have a 'concealed carry permit'. It's a License to Carry." I was pleased to see that he understood where the conflict originated. I told Det. Babcock that I was not there to try to get the Reserve Officer fired, but a serious education was in order. I also gave him a type written copy of my formal complaint:

1. The Reserve Officer was either ignorant of the law, or he willfully chose to assert his personal opinion as fact. He claimed that Indiana has a “Concealed Carry Permit.” He also indicated that to carry in any other manner was “pure stupidity.” How can a Law Enforcement Officer enforce the law, if he does not know the law himself?

2. The Reserve Officer threatened to have my License To Carry Handgun taken from me simply because he may have gotten complaints about the fact that I was carrying. This is nothing short of intimidation in an attempt to have me 'tuck my tail between my legs' and cower to his authority. The officer obviously has a personal problem with openly carried handguns, and attempted to use his position to force me to submit to his views.

3. The Marshall County 4-H Fairgrounds has no signage forbidding firearms from being carried on the premises, nor is it posted on their website. If the fair has a rule about carrying firearms, they need to make the public aware of that rule. I had no way of knowing that my legally carried firearm was not wanted on the property. However, the officer treated me as a child, as though I should be aware of this fact, accusing me of improper carrying, intimidation, and bringing a firearm where it was not wanted.

4. Was the Reserve Officer instructed by the Fair Board or other representative that he should eject me from the property? Was he acting entirely on the complaint of another patron of the fair? If he asked me to leave simply because another patron complained to him, then he was overstepping his authority. Can any patron have another patron removed from private property simply by complaining? This was a decision that should have been made by a representative of the 4-H fair, and not left to the personal opinion of a Reserve Officer.

I told him that had the officer simply come to me and inform me that I was on private property and asked me to leave, there would be no problem. Det. Babcock then stated "Well, I'm not entirely sure that it is in fact private property." I then commented, "Then you are aware with the new law that went into effect on July 1 what the ramifications of his actions are?" He responded "Yes, I am."
He ended with saying "I'm sure he got complaints about your gun, and he probably thought 'I'll take care of this.' When he saw you he probably though that you were a young guy (I am 33) and that you probably didn't know the law and he was going to flex his authority." He assured me that he would be going straight to the Sheriff after our meeting and that "this will be handled right away"

I told him that my intention is not to get the officer fired, but if an officer is going to enforce the law, he needs to know the law himself. I told him that some serious education is in order and he fully agreed. I sat there for the next 5 minutes chatting with Det. Babcock, and we parted on good terms. He took my number and assured me that he would give me a follow up call. I have a feeling that Officer Heckman is going to get a royal butt-chewing. Whether or not I decide to pursue legal action will depend on the nature of the follow up call.


How's that for a first post? :D
 

Murphy

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2011
Messages
60
Location
Indiana
One of the things that I found interesting was that he asked you "Is this private or public property?", and then wanted a "yes" or "no" answer to the question.

You could've easily have said. "Sir the manner in which you have just asked that question and the manner in which you want it answered completely contradict each other. Would you like to try to ask that question and request an answer that is more sensible?"

Then again, based on his mentality, I think his response would've been, "huh?"....

Keep us informed...
 

cce1302

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
270
Location
South Bend, Indiana, USA
He may be wrong about the Blueberry festival as well. Most of it takes place on public property, although the festival itself is run by a not-for-profit org. Gotta watch out though because some of it is on school grounds.
 

hogeaterf6

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
386
Location
, ,
Wow good job! Yep, I'm up for a oc dinner in your area. I'm over in Huntington. Let us know how it turns out.
 

Hoosierdood

New member
Joined
Jul 17, 2011
Messages
4
Location
Lapaz (North Central)
UPDATE on Marshall County Fair

I just got off the phone with Chief Deputy Ron Babcock. He said that he went to the Sheriff and discussed matters with him, and they both agreed that I was in the right, and the Reserve officer way completely out of line. I think we all knew this, but it was good to see that he took an unbiased stand rather than just siding with the LEO. He said that the sheriff would be doing 2 things as a result of this encounter.

1. He would be implementing training for the Reserve Officers that would keep them updated on current laws. He said that the Reserves are part time, and basically "free labor" for the Sheriff's Dept., but if they were going to be out there at all, the Sheriff's Dept needs to make sure they know the law.

2. The Sheriff will be going to the Marshall County Fair Board and speaking with them about this incident. They have no policy on firearms, and they need to be made aware of what their security is enforcing. If they desire to make a policy on firearms, they need to know what the law says, and make their policy clear to the public.

After discussing the incident, he asked what I carry, and what my line of work was. We continued a very informal and friendly chat, and parted amicably.

I have to say that I am satisfied with the response from the Marshall County Sheriff's Department. It's not that I am completely enthusiastic about the response, but I feel that it was handled adequately. I am not one to demand a "pound of flesh" when I am wronged. I see it like this: There was a problem because the officer was either misinformed or just chose to assert his opinion. The Sheriff's Dept was not aware that this officer was taking this action, and by my complaint, it has been brought to their attention. Once brought to their attention, they have implemented training to guard against this behavior happening again.

Others may have done things differently, but at the end of the day, I think we are all in a better position if the officers are trained properly. And that's what I was going for all along.

I would also like to insert here a big +1 to Chief Babcock. He seems like a very pro-gun and pro-rights guy, and I am fairly certain that he will make sure that no more officers are guilty of this type of behavior. As for the Reserve Officer, I am not sure what happened to him. But I am sure that he is now aware that we citizens will not tuck our tails between our legs and cower to an officer of the law who abuses his authority.


*Note- I searched high and low, and it seems that the Fair Board is in fact a private organization, and it would be very difficult to prove that they are a political subdivision, so suing is out of the question. Besides that, I never wanted to "punish" anyone, but I was seeking to correct an improper action.
 

Murphy

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2011
Messages
60
Location
Indiana
Sounds like everything was handled quite nicely. Good job!
It's good to hear and know that your complaint is resulting in training that while it may seem corrective, may actually save a life one day...
 

hogeaterf6

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
386
Location
, ,
Good to hear. I like the 2 things he will do. Sometimes its better they get educated as a resualt of a incident.
 

hogeaterf6

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
386
Location
, ,
Was taking a small bike trip to see some friends that were passing through. Not to far away, next county over. Was at my local taco bell for a cheap lunch. When i'm on the bike I always wear my vest with the club 'colors' on it. It was mid 90's so I decided to take it off once inside, which I rarly do. Had my .40 on my hip. Its half covered by the vest most of the time. I needed a refill and walked up to the machine, small family behind me about my age. I hear a young boy, about 3, say 'look daddy he's got a gun.' Dad says, 'yes he does son'. 'he a bad guy?' 'no, he's not a bad guy'. Filled up and turned around and said, 'nope, no bad guy'. His dad smiled. Mom didnt make any jestures.
 

dadpharm

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
63
Location
, ,
Jeffersonville

I am from sc and have permits from sc,maine,nh and pa. My daughter lives in Jeffersonville and I wondered how open carry friendly J ville and Clarksville are.Any advise appreciated
 

usmc0509

New member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1
Location
indianapolis
partial email from myseld to IMPD

Between approximatly 0018-0130 (1218am-130am) I was west bound on foot in Washington St. I reached the intersection, of Washington Street and Illinois St, under the arts garden. I was at the time open carry (I was unaware my shirt had rode up and rested over my weapon from taking pictures of the soldiers and sailors monument). I stopped to ask an officer a question. I didn't get the question out when the IMPD officer walked behind me, and smacked my arms in the air, ordered me to keep my hands away from my weapon. A second officer walks up removes my weapon from my holster without asking if it is loaded, flags my leg with the muzzle of my loaded weapon and by doing so, placed my safety in jeopardy. "Runs" my weapon serial number(I say run in quotes because, dispatch and IA cannot find any record of this, when I called to locate the name of the officer who called it in) I asked why are you running my s/n. They responded with to check if it is stolen. A criminal (to my thinking) wouldn't open carry, specially if the weapon he was carrying was stolen, and the individual did not have a license to carry. I was carrying my pistol in a Blackhawk serpa holster, which has a retention button. Then they finally ask if i have a permit to carry, which i said yes i do.It is in my wallet, in my back left pocket. They couldn't find my ID and asked where it is, i said there are two halves on my wallets, back half, left side, they still couldn't find it, I asked if I may i turn around and show you, they said NO, that i can look for the way i was standing, Which leads me to belive they were ILLEAGALLY searching through my wallet, while this is happening the officer that seized my weapon without a warrant, and placed my safety in jeopardy grabs my pocket to check if i have anything in there. NOT EVEN ASKING FOR PERMISSION TO SEARCH ME. I also asked if i could put my arms down, as I was standing in front of hundreds of African-Americans, and was feeling humiliated. The officers again told me NO, further added to humiliation. As the officer that started the ordeal by walking behind me and smacking my arms in the air is African-American, the officer that removed my weapon is Caucasian. After ensuring that both my weapon and license was clean, i had turned around, not long after i turnedt the officer placed my weaopn in my holster and ORDERED me to both carry concealed, and to not load my weapon until i walked away, and also further yanked my shirt down over my weapon, neither of your officers wished me a good day, as I did say that to them. I was calm and collected during the whole process as I was surrounded by 5 LEO's 3 IMPD 2 MCSD, and did not want anymore problems. I feel I have been given the run around by the Indianapolis Metropolitain Police Department while trying to get this situation resolved, and felt extremly intimidated by the conduct of your officers. I understand that officer safety and public safety is important, however where and when do the rights of the public who choose to exercise them come in to play. As your officers accosted me and made me feel like a criminal when i had done nothing wrong and was completely within my legal rights. I feel also your officers upon seizing my weapon without a warrant to do so, and "running" my s/n of my weapon leads me to belive that your officers failed to follow indiana law governing a warrantless seizure of a weapon. I say running in quotes again because, IA and IMPD dispatch has informed me they cannot find any record of such incident of my weapon being ran. Your officers also made me feel like I was targeted for the color of my skin, as the incident happened over the start of the Indiana Black Expo as an example to show the African-American community that the police do not just target African-Americans. The days that came after the incident, i attempted to file a complaint with the citizens complaint board, I was informed that I needed the officers names or badge numbers, and that asking is my right to do so. When i tried to locate the names of the officers by contacting dispatch the following monday, dispatcher #27 was more than helpful, and showed considerable concern over the officer flagging my leg with my weapon, even going to Internal Affairs to locate a the log of radio calls where the event happened, which informed me they couldn't find the information. Today i went to IMPD HQ to locate the requested information and was directed to IA which the Lieutenant i spoke to, started getting irritated with me because he stated IMPD does not keep a record of when License numbers are ran, to which I responded with the officer ran my weapon serial number, and passed on that information to him. The whole ordeal violated several rights, including 1st amendment rights to freedom of speech, as the open carry of a firearm is my choice in this state, the 2nd amendment over the right to bear arms, and 4th amendment rights against illegal search and seizure of a weapon. The act of open carry is not covered by Indiana Law, and such an omission of policy equates to approval of an action. This happened couple weeks ago in Indianapolis.
 

Stephen P. Hennessy

New member
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
1
Location
bloomingdale,in
new to the area

so from what i can gather in indiana there is a concealed weapons permit and also a license to carry permit? called the parke county sherrif and dispatch or whoever answered wasnt positive but thought i had to carry concealed.
 

cce1302

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
270
Location
South Bend, Indiana, USA
so from what i can gather in indiana there is a concealed weapons permit and also a license to carry permit? called the parke county sherrif and dispatch or whoever answered wasnt positive but thought i had to carry concealed.

No sir. The License to Carry a Handgun (LTCH) is your permission slip to carry a handgun either concealed or openly. You may not carry a handgun without the LTCH, however due to recent (1 July 2011) changes in state law, you may now transport your handgun to a range for practice without a LTCH.

Indiana does not have a concealed weapons permit--nor are there laws against carrying any weapon other than a handgun concealed or openly; rifle, knife (other than "switchblade" which is unlawful to possess) nunchucks, brass knuckles, etc.
 

Lthrnck

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
656
Location
Englewood, Ohio, USA
OC'd in Downtown Indy...

It's been a couple of years now... but 3 of us Buckeyes came over to Indy to help you Hoosiers get an OC March going in Indy. I was told that this was the first OC march ever in Indiana, that they were aware of. So that was kinda cool to be part of.

Had a real nice day, walked around downtown Indy with about 25 Hoosiers and had a great time. Had some lunch with you fine people, chatted about gun things and then drove back to Ohio..

No problems, but I guess the 5 Police Cars that were with us probably helped...LOL

But regardless... had a great day.
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,489
Location
Portage, MI
Greenwood OC

Visiting Indy area from Michigan and I saw my firs OCer! He was going into the Dollar Tree in Greenwood around 7:15. Anyone on here?
 

protect our rights

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
290
Location
Fort Wayne, Indiana
I had this posted on another forum, and thought it would be good to post here too.


My family and I went to the Marshall County 4-H fair tonight (July 14, 2011), and I was OC as usual. I was walking around the fairgrounds with my family, looking at the exhibits, and animals. We even ate some fair food. As we were walking through the swine barn, I noticed an officer enter to the rear of the building. I also noticed him make his way toward me and my family as we were walking through the barn. As we were about to leave, the officer approached me and the conversation is as follows:

LEO: Sir, may I speak to you over here for a minute?
ME: OK
LEO: Are with an agency?
ME: No sir, I am not.
LEO: Do you have any identification on you?
ME: Yes I do.
LEO: Get it out please.
*NOTE - I did not make any movements until I was instructed to do so.
LEO: (takes ID) What are you doing?
ME: Pardon?
LEO: Why are you walking around with a gun?
ME: Because I can’t carry a cop on my back.
LEO: Because you can’t carry what?
ME: Because I can’t carry a cop on my back.
LEO: I’m getting calls from all over this fairgrounds about you. People are scared. Do you know what that is called?
ME: (Silent stare)
LEO: That’s called INTIMIDATION.
ME: No sir, that’s called me exercising my rights.
LEO: Get out your permit, because I know you have one.
ME: (hands over LICENSE)
LEO: You should know better than walk around here with a concealed carry permit, and your gun isn’t even concealed.
ME: Actually, sir it is a License to Carry, and it says nothing about carrying concealed.
LEO: You are supposed to have it concealed. Carrying like that is just pure stupidity.
ME: Show me where it says on my license anything about concealed…
LEO: Well people are getting upset. You know I can take this away from you? (holds up license)
ME: NOW who’s the one intimidating???
LEO: Well, I can have your permit taken away from you.
ME: For what exactly?
LEO: For carrying improperly.
ME: I’m not carrying improperly. I am well within my rights whether you or anyone else likes it or not.
LEO: Do you know what this place is?
ME: It’s the fairgrounds.
LEO: Is this private property or not?
ME: Well that depends.
LEO: Just answer the question. Is this private property or public? It’s a YES or NO question.
ME: Well, It is run by the Fair Board. Is the Fair Board a political subdivision?
LEO: You’re not going to answer the question are you?
ME: If the fair board is a political subdivision and gets its funding from public monies, then it is not private property.
LEO: No, this is private property. Do you know why that’s not allowed?
ME: I know that private property owners can set their own rules. And they can ask anyone to leave for any reason they see fit.
LEO: Well nobody wants guns here.
ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: It’s just pure stupidity to be walking around like that.
ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: Stay here for a minute.
*He goes about 30 feet away, and calls in my license. He then comes back.
LEO: You know this is private property right?
ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: (blank stare)
ME: Are you asking me to leave?
LEO: I’m asking you to leave.
ME: OK. Kids, lets go.
LEO: We have this same problem at the Blueberry Festival. People don’t know that it’s private property.
ME: Officer, do you have a card?
LEO: NO
ME: What is your name?
LEO: Officer Heckman.
ME: You mean Reserve Sheriffs Deputy Heckman. Can I borrow your pen to write that down?
LEO: No you can’t.
*He then follows us to our car, as my 5 year old is crying his eyes out, and says to me “Daddy, why did that cop make us leave?” I replied loud enough that the officer could hear “Because he is an elitist and thinks that only cops should carry guns.”

My kids are devastated, I am madder than a hornet, and my wife can’t believe what she just witnessed. I plan on calling the Marshall County Sheriffs Dept. to file a formal complaint. Before that time, I need to investigate the Fair Board and find out if they are in fact a political subdivision. If they are in fact a political subdivision, then I plan on informing the Sheriffs Dept. that I have the legal right to sue. We will see what happens…

****UPDATE****

I went to the Sheriffs Department today (July 15, 2011)to file a formal complaint. The receptionist and the deputies were very professional and courteous. I spoke with Chief Detective Ron Babcock and provided him a type written copy of the dialogue. As he was reading the transcript, he was muttering in a low tone "That's completely wrong", "He is incorrect", and "That's ridiculous". Once he was finished reading, he stated to me "Indiana does not have a 'concealed carry permit'. It's a License to Carry." I was pleased to see that he understood where the conflict originated. I told Det. Babcock that I was not there to try to get the Reserve Officer fired, but a serious education was in order. I also gave him a type written copy of my formal complaint:



I told him that had the officer simply come to me and inform me that I was on private property and asked me to leave, there would be no problem. Det. Babcock then stated "Well, I'm not entirely sure that it is in fact private property." I then commented, "Then you are aware with the new law that went into effect on July 1 what the ramifications of his actions are?" He responded "Yes, I am."
He ended with saying "I'm sure he got complaints about your gun, and he probably thought 'I'll take care of this.' When he saw you he probably though that you were a young guy (I am 33) and that you probably didn't know the law and he was going to flex his authority." He assured me that he would be going straight to the Sheriff after our meeting and that "this will be handled right away"

I told him that my intention is not to get the officer fired, but if an officer is going to enforce the law, he needs to know the law himself. I told him that some serious education is in order and he fully agreed. I sat there for the next 5 minutes chatting with Det. Babcock, and we parted on good terms. He took my number and assured me that he would give me a follow up call. I have a feeling that Officer Heckman is going to get a royal butt-chewing. Whether or not I decide to pursue legal action will depend on the nature of the follow up call.


How's that for a first post? :D

Good job with that one. Way to say calm throughout the encounter.
 

MilProGuy

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
1,226
Location
Mississippi
Last week @ chic-fil-a on ireland & Michigan. saw no less than 5 SBPD, at least 4 of whom I am sure observed my handgun.
Today, lowes (right beside chic-fil-a) and dollar tree (@ ireland & miami).

Still no trouble around here.

It appears that South Bend has "got it together"!

Maybe it will spread on down to Mississippi. :D
 
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