amzbrady
Regular Member
United we stand.
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OC Advocate Arrested
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United we stand.
BigDave
Opt-Out Members
Firearms Academy of Seattle
Concealed Carry 101 ... $150 1 day class
Defensive Handgun ... $325 2 day class
The training at FAS will introduce you into shooting situations one will likely face, engaging targets as different distances, strong hand off hand, kneeling, prone, with cover, moving targets, engaging targets while moving, low light, flash light and no light exercises on the range, drawing from concealment, emergency reloads, and when you walk away you will know where you stand and you will leaving wanting more and start saving for the next class.
another good class/es
The Marksman
Puyallup, WA
Personal Protection And The Use of Force $125
This course is a good one to have on the legal aspects of firearms and self defense along with this it includes shoot dont shoot scenerios with the FireArms Training System know as FATS by law enforcement, this is what they use.
Ruby I never said it would be easy but setting it as a goal and save as little as $20 a month, 7 1/2 months you have paid for the class and there will be a little more cost as to ammunition travel to Onalaska or Arlington, WA
Ruby if you were involved in a self defense situation would you not want the best training you can get for a good price?
Do you not feel you owe it to yourself, spouse, children and parents to be proficient as you can be?
Don't get me wrong, Ruby I am not picking on you so please do not take it that way.
It is that the choices we make when defending ourselves also affects those that love us and depend upon us for their care, if you are sitting in the hospital or jail, then where is the income coming in? Who is taking care of the home front? not to mention the stress you will dealing with but the family does also, so knowing as much as you can will help prepare you and your family before, during and after an incident as we are talking about.
Does anyone here think that the Visser's are not concerned about their livelihood and freedom right now?
Do you not think that they could have a do over? Unfortunately we do not get them.
How much stress, sleepless nights, emotions running a muck along with many others issues that arise out of this type of an incident?
There is so much more involved and I will leave it to the professionals that do this daily and as I said before this is not to criticize it is to arouse interest in how you will be ever so more prepared if you take time now to start saving or attend as soon as you can.
It is an investment into your life and future.
Concealed Carry 101 ... $150 1 day class
Defensive Handgun ... $325 2 day class
The training at FAS will introduce you into shooting situations one will likely face, engaging targets as different distances, strong hand off hand, kneeling, prone, with cover, moving targets, engaging targets while moving, low light, flash light and no light exercises on the range, drawing from concealment, emergency reloads, and when you walk away you will know where you stand and you will leaving wanting more and start saving for the next class.
another good class/es
The Marksman
Puyallup, WA
Personal Protection And The Use of Force $125
This course is a good one to have on the legal aspects of firearms and self defense along with this it includes shoot dont shoot scenerios with the FireArms Training System know as FATS by law enforcement, this is what they use.
Ruby I never said it would be easy but setting it as a goal and save as little as $20 a month, 7 1/2 months you have paid for the class and there will be a little more cost as to ammunition travel to Onalaska or Arlington, WA
Ruby if you were involved in a self defense situation would you not want the best training you can get for a good price?
Do you not feel you owe it to yourself, spouse, children and parents to be proficient as you can be?
Don't get me wrong, Ruby I am not picking on you so please do not take it that way.
It is that the choices we make when defending ourselves also affects those that love us and depend upon us for their care, if you are sitting in the hospital or jail, then where is the income coming in? Who is taking care of the home front? not to mention the stress you will dealing with but the family does also, so knowing as much as you can will help prepare you and your family before, during and after an incident as we are talking about.
Does anyone here think that the Visser's are not concerned about their livelihood and freedom right now?
Do you not think that they could have a do over? Unfortunately we do not get them.
How much stress, sleepless nights, emotions running a muck along with many others issues that arise out of this type of an incident?
There is so much more involved and I will leave it to the professionals that do this daily and as I said before this is not to criticize it is to arouse interest in how you will be ever so more prepared if you take time now to start saving or attend as soon as you can.
It is an investment into your life and future.
oneeyeross
Regular Member
Now, training is good. Training is nice. Training is wonderful....BUT:
Gosh, darn it. I better sell all my guns and turn in my CPL, since the only firearms training I've had was what my parents taught me and then Uncle Sugar, whilst a member of Uncle Sam's Great Shebang, the U.S. Army...
Guess us poor disabled folks just aren't s'posed to protect ourselves if we can't scrape enough money together to take an "approved" class from the Master....(cue Yoda image here).
See - right there is the problem with mandatory "training." It can - and will be - placed out of the realm of the poor working stiff...those just scraping by on minimum wage jobs, even with out the 6 pack or the dinners out every week. For those of us existing on our "soldier's shilling" and not much more ("But I'm old and I'm nervis, I'm cast from the Service, and all I deserve is a shillin' a day) trying to figure out what to do with our meager resources is difficult enough, now we have been told we need to attend an approved course to be worthy of the "right" of self defense...
Sorry, Big Dave. I disagree. Defending oneself with a firearm is, according to the Supreme Court of the United States, a fundamental human RIGHT. RIGHTS don't require training, rights don't require approval, rights don't require that someone stamp a paper somewhere that says I know how to shoot.
Gosh, darn it. I better sell all my guns and turn in my CPL, since the only firearms training I've had was what my parents taught me and then Uncle Sugar, whilst a member of Uncle Sam's Great Shebang, the U.S. Army...
Guess us poor disabled folks just aren't s'posed to protect ourselves if we can't scrape enough money together to take an "approved" class from the Master....(cue Yoda image here).
See - right there is the problem with mandatory "training." It can - and will be - placed out of the realm of the poor working stiff...those just scraping by on minimum wage jobs, even with out the 6 pack or the dinners out every week. For those of us existing on our "soldier's shilling" and not much more ("But I'm old and I'm nervis, I'm cast from the Service, and all I deserve is a shillin' a day) trying to figure out what to do with our meager resources is difficult enough, now we have been told we need to attend an approved course to be worthy of the "right" of self defense...
Sorry, Big Dave. I disagree. Defending oneself with a firearm is, according to the Supreme Court of the United States, a fundamental human RIGHT. RIGHTS don't require training, rights don't require approval, rights don't require that someone stamp a paper somewhere that says I know how to shoot.
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Jim675
Founder's Club Member
BD - As for situations you are far more likely to face and that influence your survivability and the future of your family:
How many professional driving schools have you attended? If you're not willing to be educated, continuously and by proper instructors, you should not drive.
Do you really understand personal finance? If you are not a current CPA, and preferably a well-published economist, you're squandering your wealth instead of providing for your family.
I hope you're also a board certified physician, otherwise the disease or accident that are far more likely to happen to you might not be properly recognized or treated.
Or, maybe, you think my examples are a ridiculous invasion of your free will and you utterly reject my hubris in telling you how to live. I agree.
Matt85
Regular Member
i agree with you.
its very sad to see people take a small snip of unreliable info and immediatly pass judgement on someone.
this topic has become pretty depressing...
amzbrady
Regular Member
Snip again...
I dont know if I'd put alot of stock into what marksman teaches. They dont believe Open Carry is legal.
Besides, our 2A comes from where? And, how much training did the minutemen have as they fought their own way?
I do agree with Dave that training is good. I wish I myself could afford some. That being said, I shoot as often as I get a chance and hopefully will never need to ever draw my weapon, and if I do I hope I make the right decision at the time. Sadly in todays society, even if you are in the right, you could be wrong. A gun could save your life and allow you to live the rest of it behind bars. As we see at times not even police officers always make good choices (pulling firearms in snowball fights, and killing their family in local resturaunts), and they (according to the anti's) should be the only ones with guns.
kwikrnu
Banned
...shall not be infringed except the bearer, who shall be dressed at all times in business casual attire and equiped with State approved belt holster, shall be taught by State licensed instructors in all arms borne, shall pass a State approved knowledge test, and shall be required to score a minimum of 45/50 hits on a State approved silhouette target at a distance of 25 yards.
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o2ryan
Regular Member
jt59
Regular Member
True! True!....
I also rock climb, it all works a lot better with a little practice....remember the basics of training and learning a new skill (critical or practical skills).
See one
Show one
Do one
Repeat until proficient....I think I'll look a little more into these classes...shooting at static paper BG targets gets a little tedious.
I'm really glad that the air marshall's can keep a 2" group at 10 yards
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Ruby
Regular Member
BD, I agree with you in principle. If this were 3 or 4 years ago, before the economy tanked, I'd say go for it. I would love to be able to take more training. But the reality is most people can't afford it right now. I am single with no children (other than the 4 footed kind) so that's not an issue for me. Would a self defense shooting impact my life severely? You betcha, it would anyone's life, trained or not. As with anything else, training does give you an edge, both in staying alive and dealing with the aftermath. However, I would never make training mandatory, especially by the government, precisely because it would leave people who can't afford training defenseless, and it would be infringing on a basic human right and our Constitutional rights. We've already seen the results of infringing on the 2nd in places like Chicago, DC, etc. And we've seen those infringements overturned. The antis and the current adminstration would love nothing more to impose some kind of requirement to own a gun, nevermind that some states have already done that. Please don't give them any more ideas! Right now, most people's priority is staying afloat ecomomically.
I am highly unlikely to be involved in a running gun battle with another person, simply because I do not frequent places where those things occasionally happen. I know enought to remove myself quickly from a situation that is becoming dangerous. That doesn't mean that it couldn't happen, it certainly could, but it's highly unlikely. I am more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than die in a gun battle. I think we need to remember that guns, training, and everything related to them are BUSINESSES. And how do businesses survive? By convincing you that you NEED their product or service. Seriously, do you think gun sales and things related to them would have skyrocketed the way they did if Obama hadn't been elected? Then someone comes along and says I need all this training, training I will probably never use, not that that isn't a possibly, just highly unlikely. It's called fear mongering and a lot of people make a lot of money off of instilling fear in other people. I am NOT saying that's what you are doing at all. I am simply saying that SOME people do, and it's as true for the gun lobby and gun owners as it is for anyone else. How many people ran out and bought an AK or an AR simply because they were AFRAID that they wouldn't be able to buy one in the future. Who benefitted TREMENDOUSLY from that fear? Think it about it, people, before you go buy something because someone has made you think you might not be able to get it in the future.
BigDave
Opt-Out Members
Ruby as to your fear mongering statement, it is not as it is just a plain and simple fact we seek education to accomplish tasked we become involved in.
Mandatory training? The only way I would support such an issue if it was affordable for all.
Although I do also support the concept one should prepare themselves in training but not just to stop there, seek professional training.
We carry insurance in case we have to use it, even though we hope we will never have to use it, training in the laws and firearms are insurance for you and your family.
oneeye you are not the only one here that is disabled here, as I also had to retire 7 years ago with heart trouble and know what it means to live on a fixed income.
As to the military training and family teaching you, well I have taken that into consideration with my training.
I spent 7 years in the Army along with training in Nuclear Security, Yakima County Sheriff Office, Walla Walla State Penitentiary, close to 17 years of firearms training and handling.
The classes I attended and participated in with FAS and The Marksman helped me far beyond what the others provided for civilian carry.
This is not an issue of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, it is an issue in preparing yourself in case you find yourself in a situation that you must act, isn't that why you carry daily?
I support the concept of someone finding a way to become educated in the firearms laws and tactics used by the law abiding citizen to defend themselves and families.
There are books and videos along with articles one can absorb over a period of time and yet ignore the fact that you will be up and running in a much shorter period of time if one attends professional training.
How do this books and videos provide practical application, how many ranges will let you draw and shoot? how many ranges will let you move and shoot or shoot at moving targets, or low light tactics.
How are you going to know, if you can walk the walk instead of just talk the talk?
Someone mentioned that they should sell off a gun to go to training, well that is not such a bad idea, a gun can be replaced later.
"RIGHTS don't require training" I completely agree in this statement but your freedom might depend on it!
I can see there are a few who feel I am attacking them and let me assure you I am not, I am attacking point of views with my own.
Mandatory training? The only way I would support such an issue if it was affordable for all.
Although I do also support the concept one should prepare themselves in training but not just to stop there, seek professional training.
We carry insurance in case we have to use it, even though we hope we will never have to use it, training in the laws and firearms are insurance for you and your family.
oneeye you are not the only one here that is disabled here, as I also had to retire 7 years ago with heart trouble and know what it means to live on a fixed income.
As to the military training and family teaching you, well I have taken that into consideration with my training.
I spent 7 years in the Army along with training in Nuclear Security, Yakima County Sheriff Office, Walla Walla State Penitentiary, close to 17 years of firearms training and handling.
The classes I attended and participated in with FAS and The Marksman helped me far beyond what the others provided for civilian carry.
This is not an issue of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, it is an issue in preparing yourself in case you find yourself in a situation that you must act, isn't that why you carry daily?
I support the concept of someone finding a way to become educated in the firearms laws and tactics used by the law abiding citizen to defend themselves and families.
There are books and videos along with articles one can absorb over a period of time and yet ignore the fact that you will be up and running in a much shorter period of time if one attends professional training.
How do this books and videos provide practical application, how many ranges will let you draw and shoot? how many ranges will let you move and shoot or shoot at moving targets, or low light tactics.
How are you going to know, if you can walk the walk instead of just talk the talk?
Someone mentioned that they should sell off a gun to go to training, well that is not such a bad idea, a gun can be replaced later.
"RIGHTS don't require training" I completely agree in this statement but your freedom might depend on it!
I can see there are a few who feel I am attacking them and let me assure you I am not, I am attacking point of views with my own.
Jeff Hayes
Regular Member
+1000
gogodawgs
Campaign Veteran
Dave,
You attacked the author in your very first phrase. It is a shame that you do this. You are a very reasoned and poignant writer and debater, however these kinds of statements put people off and on the defensive.
I have had professional training 'gratis' and would agree that any level of training is a great benefit. Financial concerns are a significant obstacle for some, but a fair criticism to the priorities some put on training or other areas always astound me. My example would be that someone will pay $1000 for an AR, yet they will not spend $300 on a safe. I do not understand their priorities.
Tawnos
Regular Member
Interesting, I took the course at the Marksman recently, and I recommend AGAINST it.
Here was my write up after going:
Tawnos said:
And with regards to FAS, this was recently passed along by another member of our club, regarding their precision rifle class:
MH said:
And I followed up to get more detail:
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BigDave
Opt-Out Members
Tawnos, just curious has there ever been a course you did like? Which ones would you give your stamp of approval?
Did you attend any handgun courses at FAS?
The Marksman Course I attended was several years ago and taught by Ron Schmidt and had none of the negative issues you bring up, maybe it changed.
The FATS simulator I am sure is the same one was not near the condition you describe and there are and were shoot no shoot scenarios and each person was offered to go through 3 scenarios and with an offer to return in another class to go through it yet again.
As to the Officer, in the class I attended did not have him or her.
As to FAS, I have and still find Marty to be a great instructor as with his co-instructors as the courses I have taken were for handguns and find the courses and targets in very good shape and clean along with being clear of any debris.
They also have several outside guest instructors that teach as well with Massad Ayoob, Ken Hackathorn and Ron Pincus and if Marty had the attitude you paint I am sure these National Known Firearms Instructors would not be there.
It does not matter if you like them or not, at least find someone that are well established and attend and get all the information you can out of it, it will pay off for you and your family.
One needs to be able to shoot from concealment, cover, different position, draw from the holster, different distances, moving, or moving targets, multiple targets, low light conditions and if you have not then how do you know when it comes down to it, how do you know you can do it. There is more to it then just standing there at a firing line and shooting paper.
I strongly believe in promoting those to carry for self defense, and do so in manner with the best information and training they can get, to achieve the best outcome when faced with a threat.
GoGoDawgs as to attacking the author in my first sentence?
First Ruby stated "Then someone comes along and says I need all this training, training I will probably never use, not that that isn't a possibly, just highly unlikely. It's called fear mongering and a lot of people make a lot of money off of instilling fear in other people."
And I replied
"Ruby as to your fear mongering statement, it is not as it is just a plain and simple fact we seek education to accomplish tasked we become involved in."
This is addressing Ruby's statement not her a big difference as she was addressing my statement.
When it all comes down to it, it is and will likely always be that we choose to exercise the Right to Keep and Bear Arms and we owe it to ourselves and families to be well trained to protect ourselves and families so we can protect ourselves and them before, during and afterwards.
If one cannot afford the professional training right now, start saving and continue to seek out other forms of training but do not give up on improving ourselves in this Right.
Did you attend any handgun courses at FAS?
The Marksman Course I attended was several years ago and taught by Ron Schmidt and had none of the negative issues you bring up, maybe it changed.
The FATS simulator I am sure is the same one was not near the condition you describe and there are and were shoot no shoot scenarios and each person was offered to go through 3 scenarios and with an offer to return in another class to go through it yet again.
As to the Officer, in the class I attended did not have him or her.
As to FAS, I have and still find Marty to be a great instructor as with his co-instructors as the courses I have taken were for handguns and find the courses and targets in very good shape and clean along with being clear of any debris.
They also have several outside guest instructors that teach as well with Massad Ayoob, Ken Hackathorn and Ron Pincus and if Marty had the attitude you paint I am sure these National Known Firearms Instructors would not be there.
It does not matter if you like them or not, at least find someone that are well established and attend and get all the information you can out of it, it will pay off for you and your family.
One needs to be able to shoot from concealment, cover, different position, draw from the holster, different distances, moving, or moving targets, multiple targets, low light conditions and if you have not then how do you know when it comes down to it, how do you know you can do it. There is more to it then just standing there at a firing line and shooting paper.
I strongly believe in promoting those to carry for self defense, and do so in manner with the best information and training they can get, to achieve the best outcome when faced with a threat.
GoGoDawgs as to attacking the author in my first sentence?
First Ruby stated "Then someone comes along and says I need all this training, training I will probably never use, not that that isn't a possibly, just highly unlikely. It's called fear mongering and a lot of people make a lot of money off of instilling fear in other people."
And I replied
"Ruby as to your fear mongering statement, it is not as it is just a plain and simple fact we seek education to accomplish tasked we become involved in."
This is addressing Ruby's statement not her a big difference as she was addressing my statement.
When it all comes down to it, it is and will likely always be that we choose to exercise the Right to Keep and Bear Arms and we owe it to ourselves and families to be well trained to protect ourselves and families so we can protect ourselves and them before, during and afterwards.
If one cannot afford the professional training right now, start saving and continue to seek out other forms of training but do not give up on improving ourselves in this Right.
PT111
Regular Member
I see this is another thread that has wound up no where close to the OP. Every person has the right to defend themselves and anyone who argues that is wrong. If that person uses a gun to defend themselves then that is their right no matter what amount of training they have. However if the writeup in the OP is anywhere close to correct it was not a case of someone defending themselves. It was a case of someone helping someone else involved in a fight. The third party in the story tried to break up the fight and the person with the gun stopped her from doing that and held the gun on her. That was not a lack of training but stupidity and helping with the fight. The third party did not need a gun to try to break up the fight but was stopped by someone with a gun. This was not a case of self-defense and not a lack of training issue.
He then fires a shot into the ground. That may be a lack of training issue but is also a lack of common sense. This whole story was not about training or lack of training but a lack of good judgement. I don't know the entire story but when two people are fighting an someone tries to break it up and you threaten to kill them if they do then that is being part of the fight and you deserver to go to jail.
He then fires a shot into the ground. That may be a lack of training issue but is also a lack of common sense. This whole story was not about training or lack of training but a lack of good judgement. I don't know the entire story but when two people are fighting an someone tries to break it up and you threaten to kill them if they do then that is being part of the fight and you deserver to go to jail.
Tawnos
Regular Member
Sure, I liked my computer engineering capstone course, and my business law course, and my realtime 3d graphics course, and I've enjoyed Krav Maga (though have been too busy to go recently), among others
. As for self-defense courses, the one at the Marksman was the first I went to. The review of the FAS was from another person, who commented that the pistol courses are reputed to still be good, but the rifle isn't worth it.The same instructor was teaching on the same machine from 10+ years ago. Each of us were only given the chance to go through once, and that was pushing time at least 2-3 hours past when the class was supposed to be over. No offer of returning for more FATS practice was made. The graphics most certainly were that bad, and the acting was... well, I think I pretty accurately described it when mentioning vidcap games from the 90s.
I didn't paint any picture, another person in our group did. I won't comment on the other instructors.
That's an assertion with no evidence. You said "get professional training at somewhere well established" and I did, along with others. The net consensus of our group was that the class was overpriced for what it provided, and its benefits were minimal. Practically nothing we didn't know was presented.
IDPA, IPSC, rifle league - there are plenty of ways to practice these without paying out the nose for a name and piece of paper.
And the information presented was neither the best information nor the best training. You want the best legal advice: ask a lawyer, not a gun trainer. Since all the lawyers I've ever spoken to have given me advice different than what you say and what the trainer at the Marksman said, I can only surmise that the advice presented there is not the best and should not be followed. It thus stands to reason that your advice, too, is suspect.
Ruby
Regular Member
BD, you didn't take the quote far enough. I also said after that that I was NOT talking about you, and I wasn't. We get the idea about training now. I hope you have gotten the idea that some of us will continue with training when we can afford it. Tawnos, thank you for your critique of FAS and Marksman, I had considered both for training and now will have to reconsider when I am able to afford it.
Maybe now we can get back on topic? Does anyone have any new information on Tyler Visser or his wife?
Maybe now we can get back on topic? Does anyone have any new information on Tyler Visser or his wife?
gogodawgs
Campaign Veteran
Fair enough, my apology for reading it out of context. (no quote so and I read too fast!)
BigDave
Opt-Out Members
No problem here and Ruby I did not fully quote as I and others read what you said and you were not directing it at me.
I do read each and every post a couple of times to try and gather the points they are putting across, some I agree with and some I don't as with anyone else on the forum.
Ruby if I had the cash right now to send you to a class at FAS I would and let you find out for yourself, who knows there maybe a Santa around the corner.
Maybe instead of handing out guns as prizes on these events maybe a prepaid training class may come in and there would not be an issue of a CPL or not.