Obama's 'Gun Violence Task Force': Enough bickering. Time to act.

[Shadow Bear]

I'll shoot for whatever is within range.

Nice choice of words. That'll win with moderates over. Still waiting for that great suggestion......

 

[Shadow Bear]

Are you suggesting that police are anti-2A?

It's a know fact some are very anti 2A, or at least they have the opinion non-LEOs shouldn't have guns.

I'm not suggesting that Cops are anti 2A, though like with any profession, some are. My point in mentioning this was that many departments have been, in the past, resistant to our efforts, and to use your own judgement as to whether or not that fact has any bearing on what you post.

But this isn't really relevant to the thread, is it? Do you have any thoughts on the actual topic?

I am in.
Clearly some LEO and LEA's are anti 2A, not all, but some.

Yes, it is, because it sounds like you are advocating secrecy so the police do not find out what we are going to do and thus (unlawfully) try to prevent us from doing--something. That has bearing on what we do, how we do it, and how we organize. If they are not anti-2A there is nothing to fear from them.

Ok, I am in, my other post said this as well, serious answer to a serious question. Mods need to stop getting rid of things they personally disagree with and let the conversation continue.

I dont know what your problem is with me, but my posts were well within OPs requests. Deleting them was out of line. I was very careful to respect his wishes.

Evil, PM sent.,

These are the posts that were deleted; as you can see, they offer deep insight into the problem, and offer thoughtful solutions. Judge for yourselves.

 

[Bikenut]

Well, that's just it- how do we do that? Keep both sides liberty, AND safety? I have no idea.

I'm pretty sure a massive media campaign or another poorly attended 2nd Amendment march is going to win over any of the 'opposition'.

Media and lobbying have worked so well for the NRA; they've even alienated a good number of more moderate gun owners, as evidenced by many posts on this and similar forums. They've staked out the far end of the continuum, alienated the middle, and are completely dismissed as the lunatic fringe by the other end (the anti gun lunatic fringe).

So far, what I've seen of rallies at the capital, they're poorly attended, and attract what I would call the fringe element, giving the media plenty of fodder for sensationalized articles that marginalize the attendees. Did anyone notice that the NRA spokesman was wearing a SUIT, and not camouflage? He wasn't carrying a weapon? He was presenting ideas, which are infinitely more powerful than any firearm.

The pen is, indeed, mightier than the sword.

Yes the pen is mightier than the sword but the pen is useless without the sword to enforce the words the pen wrote. And that is why those who use the pen to write words of law that control the masses never ever give up their swords even while they write laws so the masses will not be allowed to have their own swords.

And History shows the only way the masses have to get rid of bad words written by pens in the hands of tyrants is to use.......... swords.

What do I mean by all of that? While the pen is powerful it is only as powerful as the swords that uphold that power. Let us not allow ourselves to be fooled into laying down our swords nor let us be intimidated into thinking that we should hide our swords for without our swords the only pen that is powerful is the one in the hands of those .... in power.

As for the idea of "safety"... that is an illusion foisted upon society by those who fear reality. There is no such thing as "safety".. no one is ever "safe".. and there is no right to be "safe".

Life never was "safe" and it never will be "safe". All that can ever be done is to prepare to defend from the uncertainty and the unsafe condition called... life.

As for the media? The media runs on what ever sells the most newspapers/gets the most listeners/viewers/brings the most advertising dollars. The media runs on the sensationalism the majority of the people desire to see. So it isn't the media that is to blame... it is the sensation seeking masses who want to see blood and guts instead of peace and love. Face it... peace and love is boring but blood and guts is exciting. So instead of blaming the media we need to look at what happened to create a society that considers the excitement of blood and guts to be entertaining.

Now... to address poorly attended rallys and events. Lots of folks want to watch blood and guts stuff happen to someone else but are too afraid to put themselves at risk of being one of those folks they see on TV being hassled or even arrested for actually standing up for what they believe in. What to do? I honestly don't know since I can't even convince friends who say they believe in the 2nd Amendment to grow the 'nads to open carry alongside me.

But just because others don't, or won't, doesn't mean I shouldn't.

Edited to have the last sentence express exactly what I wanted it to.

 

[Shadow Bear]

Yes the pen is mightier than the sword but the pen is useless without the sword to enforce the words the pen wrote. And that is why those who use the pen to write words of law that control the masses never ever give up their swords even while they write laws so the masses will not be allowed to have their own swords.

And History shows the only way the masses have to get rid of bad words written by pens in the hands of tyrants is to use.......... swords.

What do I mean by all of that? While the pen is powerful it is only as powerful as the swords that uphold that power. Let us not allow ourselves to be fooled into laying down our swords nor let us be intimidated into thinking that we should hide our swords for without our swords the only pen that is powerful is the one in the hands of those .... in power.

As for the idea of "safety"... that is an illusion foisted upon society by those who fear reality. There is no such thing as "safety".. no one is ever "safe".. and there is no right to be "safe".

Life never was "safe" and it never will be "safe". All that can ever be done is to prepare to defend from the uncertainty and the unsafe condition called... life.

As for the media? The media runs on what ever sells the most newspapers/gets the most listeners/viewers/brings the most advertising dollars. The media runs on the sensationalism the majority of the people desire to see. So it isn't the media that is to blame... it is the sensation seeking masses who want to see blood and guts instead of peace and love. Face it... peace and love is boring but blood and guts is exciting. So instead of blaming the media we need to look at what happened to create a society that considers the excitement of blood and guts to be entertaining.

Now... to address poorly attended rallys and events. Lots of folks want to watch blood and guts stuff happen to someone else but are too afraid to put themselves at risk of being one of those folks they see on TV being hassled or even arrested for actually standing up for what they believe in. What to do? I honestly don't know since I can't even convince friends who say they believe in the 2nd Amendment to grow the 'nads to open carry alongside me.

But just because others don't, or won't, doesn't mean I shouldn't.

Edited to have the last sentence express exactly what I wanted it to.

Agreed- far too many lack the conviction of their words, but the larger majority, I fear, are too comfortable in their ignorance or apathy. How do we move them from their comfort zone, without lowering ourselves to the level of those who would use sensationalism? What is the rallying cry that will stir those who just don't care?

 

[Shadow Bear]

Um, the last post you listed was my last post, what about the first two? I see they are back up now, thank you.

Neil, did you have something to contribute to the discussion, or just working on post count?

 

[Bikenut]

Agreed- far too many lack the conviction of their words, but the larger majority, I fear, are too comfortable in their ignorance or apathy. How do we move them from their comfort zone, without lowering ourselves to the level of those who would use sensationalism? What is the rallying cry that will stir those who just don't care?

I, like you and many others, have pondered that question for a very long time.

But perhaps the rallying cry is already here and being heard since many folks are beginning to understand that the laws intended to protect their children are the very things that are putting their children at risk.... and now folks are calling for guns in schools. Remember that a very short time ago just voicing that concept resulted in scorn and derision but is now even being being considered by some lawmakers......

As sad as it is... perhaps, once again, it takes a tragedy of terrible proportions to wake people up and make them move forward with change that is not only meaningful but actually addresses the real problem of how to protect innocents from the harm evil people do (and will always do regardless of laws) instead of pushing some fear based anti gun agenda.

Is there some slogan? Some talking point? Some simple sentence that will grab the attention of society? I believe that has already been stated by many folks including Wayne LaPerrier.....

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

And that is the simple factual truth.

 

[griffin]

So far, what I've seen of rallies at the capital, they're poorly attended, and attract what I would call the fringe element, giving the media plenty of fodder for sensationalized articles that marginalize the attendees. Did anyone notice that the NRA spokesman was wearing a SUIT, and not camouflage? He wasn't carrying a weapon? He was presenting ideas, which are infinitely more powerful than any firearm.

The pen is, indeed, mightier than the sword.

I agree. The RTW demonstrations were heavily attended, and the unions looked like buffoons and thugs. Despite extremely heavy protesting inside and outside the capitol for days, RTW was voted on and the governor signed it before they had erased the vote tally board! Whether there are heavy demonstrations or light demonstrations seem to have little affect on the outcome, and the worst will always be broadcast by the media.

I agree with going about our business carrying as normal--looking like normal people!--and working behind the scenes to affect legislation.

I have no children in school so I have no reason to be hanging around one eyeing kids like Aqualung, I don't attend sports events, go to bars, day care centers, and the last movie I saw in the theater was Jurassic Park I. But if others regularly are in PFZs, go ahead and OC there. I'll just keep OCing in restaurants and stores and the normal places I go every day.

 

[Shadow Bear]

I, like you and many others, have pondered that question for a very long time.

But perhaps the rallying cry is already here and being heard since many folks are beginning to understand that the laws intended to protect their children are the very things that are putting their children at risk.... and now folks are calling for guns in schools. Remember that a very short time ago just voicing that concept resulted in scorn and derision but is now even being being considered by some lawmakers......

As sad as it is... perhaps, once again, it takes a tragedy of terrible proportions to wake people up and make them move forward with change that is not only meaningful but actually addresses the real problem of how to protect innocents from the harm evil people do (and will always do regardless of laws) instead of pushing some fear based anti gun agenda.

Is there some slogan? Some talking point? Some simple sentence that will grab the attention of society? I believe that has already been stated by many folks including Wayne LaPerrier.....

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

And that is the simple factual truth.

So, how do we communicate to the general population that 1) there is no way that we can keep guns out of the hands of bad guys, anymore than we can keep drugs off our streets and 2) 'normal' people carry guns for 'normal' reasons?

Even more so, how do we convince moderate gun owners of that? I'll confess, I'm probably more 'moderate' than most, and some of the fringe elements cause me to back away; I certainly do not want to get lumped in with the more, shall we say, 'vocal' elements with their camo and carbines....and loud rhetoric

 

[Bikenut]

So, how do we communicate to the general population that 1) there is no way that we can keep guns out of the hands of bad guys, anymore than we can keep drugs off our streets and 2) 'normal' people carry guns for 'normal' reasons?

Even more so, how do we convince moderate gun owners of that? I'll confess, I'm probably more 'moderate' than most, and some of the fringe elements cause me to back away; I certainly do not want to get lumped in with the more, shall we say, 'vocal' elements with their camo and carbines....and loud rhetoric

Honestly there are folks who can't figure out that all the gun laws we already have just do not keep guns away from those who would do harm with them and those folks will never be able to get past their fear and cowardice to think logically. Those folks are a lost cause and always will be.

But judging from some of the stuff coming out of the news I think many folks are beginning to actually think about things instead of just reacting.

Now the folks who are sitting on the fence.... when the message is put in simple terms that are straight and to the point... and are so simply logical the logic is just simple... then folks will begin to look past the "guns are scary" rhetoric to see the truth that guns aren't scary... bad people are scary whether they have guns or not. But that simple sentence... "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" presents the simple logic that if good guys want to stop bad guys with guns the good guys better get some guns.

And when normal people carry guns right there in plain sight as they go about their normal day behaving in normal ways.. actually behaving even more polite, considerate, and responsible, than what folks consider to be "normal" then the subliminal message is.... normal folks, nice folks, folks who pay for the lunch of the people next in line, folks who hold doors open for other people, folks who help old folks carry their groceries to their car... etc. ... etc. ... then folks will understand on a subconscious level that normal folks carrying guns are behaving in an even more non threatening manner than "normal" people do.

How do we get that message out? Carry a gun and be polite, be considerate in how we treat people WHILE we are carrying, and behave responsibly. And while finding a media outlet willing to do a story... or several stories... on folks who... carry guns would be a fantastic thing to do (and outside my personal scope of expertise)... just carrying a gun in plain sight and behaving like a better than normal person does gets the message out in a personal way.. to individual persons on an individual and personal level.

Ok..... how about those guys in crappy clothes or camos carrying long guns? Should we distance ourselves from them because we are afraid being associated with them would tarnish our image and our message? Nope... we should welcome them and talk with them and endeavor to convince them, if they want to help restore the right to bear arms, the fight at this point in time is on the battlefield of public relations... and perhaps they will agree that taking a softer road at this time can be a more positive approach. If they don't agree.......... well......... like it or not it is their right and we need to stand firm, shoulder to shoulder, with everyone who is willing to fight for the right to bear arms.. not just stand with those who bear arms the way we happen to like... but with everyone.

If we, as supporters of the right to bear arms, shun other supporters of the right to bear arms just because we don't like how they do it............... we are helping the anti gunners by dividing our ranks due to personal opinion.

Will what I've said work? Well... Yooperlady and I, and our open carried sidearms, are more than welcome in many businesses simply because we are polite, considerate, and behave responsibly. And we have had positive results through conversations with individuals who leaned towards taking a hard line concerning the right to bear arms. So I can say from personal experience that it works for us.

 

[griffin]

And now begins the press from the left.

[video=youtube;64G5FfG2Xpg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64G5FfG2Xpg[/video]

Gee, I feel better already.

 

[Ezerharden]

Honestly there are folks who can't figure out that all the gun laws we already have just do not keep guns away from those who would do harm with them and those folks will never be able to get past their fear and cowardice to think logically. Those folks are a lost cause and always will be.

But judging from some of the stuff coming out of the news I think many folks are beginning to actually think about things instead of just reacting.

Now the folks who are sitting on the fence.... when the message is put in simple terms that are straight and to the point... and are so simply logical the logic is just simple... then folks will begin to look past the "guns are scary" rhetoric to see the truth that guns aren't scary... bad people are scary whether they have guns or not. But that simple sentence... "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" presents the simple logic that if good guys want to stop bad guys with guns the good guys better get some guns.

And when normal people carry guns right there in plain sight as they go about their normal day behaving in normal ways.. actually behaving even more polite, considerate, and responsible, than what folks consider to be "normal" then the subliminal message is.... normal folks, nice folks, folks who pay for the lunch of the people next in line, folks who hold doors open for other people, folks who help old folks carry their groceries to their car... etc. ... etc. ... then folks will understand on a subconscious level that normal folks carrying guns are behaving in an even more non threatening manner than "normal" people do.

How do we get that message out? Carry a gun and be polite, be considerate in how we treat people WHILE we are carrying, and behave responsibly. And while finding a media outlet willing to do a story... or several stories... on folks who... carry guns would be a fantastic thing to do (and outside my personal scope of expertise)... just carrying a gun in plain sight and behaving like a better than normal person does gets the message out in a personal way.. to individual persons on an individual and personal level.

Ok..... how about those guys in crappy clothes or camos carrying long guns? Should we distance ourselves from them because we are afraid being associated with them would tarnish our image and our message? Nope... we should welcome them and talk with them and endeavor to convince them, if they want to help restore the right to bear arms, the fight at this point in time is on the battlefield of public relations... and perhaps they will agree that taking a softer road at this time can be a more positive approach. If they don't agree.......... well......... like it or not it is their right and we need to stand firm, shoulder to shoulder, with everyone who is willing to fight for the right to bear arms.. not just stand with those who bear arms the way we happen to like... but with everyone.

If we, as supporters of the right to bear arms, shun other supporters of the right to bear arms just because we don't like how they do it............... we are helping the anti gunners by dividing our ranks due to personal opinion.

Will what I've said work? Well... Yooperlady and I, and our open carried sidearms, are more than welcome in many businesses simply because we are polite, considerate, and behave responsibly. And we have had positive results through conversations with individuals who leaned towards taking a hard line concerning the right to bear arms. So I can say from personal experience that it works for us.

Good post Bikenut, any ideas on how to convince those people with long guns to Compromise?

 

[FreeInAZ]

Careful you are walking the fine line of a personal attack on the mods.

Now on topic

Here in AZ some counties have a sworn force of reserve deputies/posse's . http://www.mcsoposse.org/ They have full arrest powers. They often are volunteers usually and perform many valuable functions after completing a training program. Why not expand this idea nation wide and have school posse's? This let's the districts off the hook for liability and gives younger people, veterans, or retirees a valuable chance to gain training and experience in a LE role while serving their community.

We will never stop the nuts until they know the schools are no longer a shoot the fish in the barrel fun zone for them.

Schools are governmental agencies; they can be shamed into taking responsibility for the children in their care.

What about churches, temples, synagogues, movie theaters, and the like?

As for me and mine, we stay out of free fire zones; if more did, perhaps they'd feel the economic pinch. Problem is, many don't acknowledge the risk, or feel the odds are in their favor, that a mass shooting won't occur while they are present (and unarmed).

Great question. I think that the nuts will flock to them once schools have been secured. This will force them (sadly) to understand that criminals do not obey their no guns rules (only the law abiding citizens do). They too will be shamed into doing something eventually...

Now on topic lots of banter here but not many suggestions??? Someone here in a forum full of geniuses
must have some, right?

 

[griffin]

lots of banter here but not many suggestions

I posted mine in #31.

 

[Bikenut]

Good post Bikenut, any ideas on how to convince those people with long guns to Compromise?

Let me respectfully ask... Do you want "compromise" (compromise is a two way street where someone ALWAYS loses something) or do you want them to stop doing it because you think it is always detrimental?

As I mentioned... talk with long gun carriers explaining that IF they want to fight to regain gun rights in the arena of public relations then the long gun may not be the way to go at the moment. If the person doesn't want to see that point of view and wishes to continue carrying a long gun then... remember... it is their right regardless of if other folks like it or not. And please remember this is a fight for the right to bear arms itself... NOT just for pistol carry.

However those who don't approve of long gun carry also need to understand that there are times when it is appropriate either as a form of protest or if that is the only option a person has at that time in the life situation they are in. It annoys me to no end for other people to assume that just because they have the money/time/resources to buy things then everyone else has too. That perspective smacks of the right to bear arms is only for those who can afford a pistol. And I'm not talking about my finances but I understand there are others less fortunate than I that also have the right to bear arms.

And as much as I wish I could provide a game plan complete with a numbered list of actions to take that lead to the end goal I fear doing that, like finding a media outlet, is outside the scope of my expertise. The only "game plan" I have to offer is to walk the walk every day and try to capitalize on every opportunity to talk with folks and, instead of pontificating about the right to bear arms, find something to focus on during the discussion about how having a gun might fit into their personal circumstances in a positive way. When I do this my goal isn't to convince anyone or to make a convert... my goal is to get them to think instead of "feel" because I have great faith that ordinary folks are intelligent and can make good decisions IF they have facts that fit directly into their personal lives.

It is way past time to put aside petty differences and focus on the goal itself. And that goal isn't who carries what where or why.... the goal is to regain the right to bear arms anywhere, for any reason, in any way, of any kind, ................ for everyone.

And perhaps it is necessary to first understand what the real goal is before it is possible to figure out how to get there????

My apologies to the site owners and mods for straying into LGOC territory.

 

[Ezerharden]

Let me respectfully ask... Do you want "compromise" (compromise is a two way street where someone ALWAYS loses something) or do you want them to stop doing it because you think it is always detrimental?

To ask them to even temporarily change their carry habits or even clothing is a compromise of sorts on their part. As to it being detrimental, well I guess that could depend on the location. In a very rural area it may be perfectly accepted that a farmer may carry a rifle for varmint control. In downtown Detroit, it may be less accepted. However accepted or not, it is their right.

You were the one who asked about the topic, I was merely asking if you had an idea how to accomplish that. I understood from your post you wanted to try and get them to either change manner of dress or not OC long guns for a bit because many of the anti's see them as the extreme fringe element, i.e. militia members.

Ok..... how about those guys in crappy clothes or camos carrying long guns? Should we distance ourselves from them because we are afraid being associated with them would tarnish our image and our message? Nope... we should welcome them and talk with them and endeavor to convince them, if they want to help restore the right to bear arms, the fight at this point in time is on the battlefield of public relations... and perhaps they will agree that taking a softer road at this time can be a more positive approach. If they don't agree.......... well......... like it or not it is their right and we need to stand firm, shoulder to shoulder, with everyone who is willing to fight for the right to bear arms.. not just stand with those who bear arms the way we happen to like... but with everyone.

I personally would not walk around downtown where I live toting my M4, but that is a matter of personal choice.

 

[Shadow Bear]

Like the motherland, they will resort to making kitchen knives illegal.

Not now, Neil, the grownups are talking.....

 

[Bikenut]

To ask them to even temporarily change their carry habits or even clothing is a compromise of sorts on their part. As to it being detrimental, well I guess that could depend on the location. In a very rural area it may be perfectly accepted that a farmer may carry a rifle for varmint control. In downtown Detroit, it may be less accepted. However accepted or not, it is their right.

You were the one who asked about the topic, I was merely asking if you had an idea how to accomplish that. I understood from your post you wanted to try and get them to either change manner of dress or not OC long guns for a bit because many of the anti's see them as the extreme fringe element, i.e. militia members.



I personally would not walk around downtown where I live toting my M4, but that is a matter of personal choice.

Originally Posted by Shadow Bear So, how do we communicate to the general population that 1) there is no way that we can keep guns out of the hands of bad guys, anymore than we can keep drugs off our streets and 2) 'normal' people carry guns for 'normal' reasons?

Even more so, how do we convince moderate gun owners of that? I'll confess, I'm probably more 'moderate' than most, and some of the fringe elements cause me to back away; I certainly do not want to get lumped in with the more, shall we say, 'vocal' elements with their camo and carbines....and loud rhetoric

I didn't bring up the topic of long guns but I felt it should be responded to since supposedly we are all in the fight for the right to bear arms regardless of which arm is carried... how it is carried... who carries it.... or where it is carried. And if we continue to alienate any segment of bearing arms because we personally think it is detrimental then the right itself suffers due to a lack of solidarity amongst those who bear arms.

But since I really don't want this thread to stray any further than it has (and I helped it to go) from soliciting ideas on how to counter the anti gun sentiment/anti gun agenda running wild right now, and since I don't have any real ideas to offer, perhaps it is time I let this part of the discussion end.

 

[Shadow Bear]

I didn't bring up the topic of long guns but I felt it should be responded to since supposedly we are all in the fight for the right to bear arms regardless of which arm is carried... how it is carried... who carries it.... or where it is carried. And if we continue to alienate any segment of bearing arms because we personally think it is detrimental then the right itself suffers due to a lack of solidarity amongst those who bear arms.

But since I really don't want this thread to stray any further than it has (and I helped it to go) from soliciting ideas on how to counter the anti gun sentiment/anti gun agenda running wild right now perhaps it is time to let this part of the discussion end.

Long arms, while not within the mission of this forum, are a legitimate and critical part of the overall wave of sentiment against lawful ownership of any style of firearm. If we stand aside on the issue of long arms, who will stand with the the pistol owners when they come for ours?

The large point is, appearances count. Wayne La Pierre showed that. We are in a war of words AND appearances. I consider myself somewhat open minded, but when I see someone dressed like a) a thug, b) a slob or c) military type garb, I am a) on alert, b) embarrassed or c) on alert. How much more so the average citizen is put in an uneasy situation? They know they are defenseless, and they are, if not outright scared, at least concerned about the situation they are in. By our appearances, we can easily cause a negative impression.

Now, I know I'm going to get flamed for my stance, but I'm simply pointing out that deviating from what society considers 'normal appearance' AND carrying a firearm (of any sort) has the effect of creating a greater 'impression' than either act alone. Dressing like a militia gets you one 'point', carrying a firearm gets you one 'point'. Doing both doesn't get you two 'points', it gets you ten! Now, dress like militia and carry a firearm in your hands at a school, and probably get two (in the chest).

So far, we have the recommendation to continue to open carry, be winsome & engaging, ready with a word in season & out, while presenting an approachable appearance.

What next?

 

[FreeInAZ]

I posted mine in #31.

Yes I saw that. Thanks for your comments. You are now counted in the plus column here I hope.

To the OP. Evil C I know your intentions were good in posting this thread asking for idea's on how to stem the tidal wave of anti gun legislation that may be headed our way. I salute you for the attempt. Hopefully others will chime in with some constructive comments and suggestions. I have stood besides you in harms way. I consider you a brother in arms and a defender of rights Evil CreamSicle.

To those who may think nothing is going to happen to strip our gun rights: you are sadly mistaken. Hell here in AZ we have Libtard legislators screaming for the repeal of constitutional carry. We must try hard to block them across the U.S.A. before the damage done is too great to be undone easily. This is why we need good idea's on how to do just that.

 

[Bronson]

My personal plan is less ambitious than a large public display (which I am not averse to, it just isn't my plan). My experience has shown me that much of the fear about guns is born from ignorance. Every person, even those that were anti, that I've ever taken to the range and taught has come away from the experience with a better appreciation of firearms...and they had a fun time to boot

With this in mind I recently took the course to become a certified Basic Pistol Instructor. At this time my plan is to use this as more of a community outreach than a profit generating venture. I'm planning on offering the class to people I know for just the cost of materials.

That's my plan.

Bronson