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NICS Denial, perhaps not the typical questions

gutshot II

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2017
Messages
601
Location
Central Ky.
and you may believe what you will regarding the information contained on the 4473 & the FFL's bound book.

alas, Gutshot i am sorry to inform you, but are not an agent for the FFL ~ not in any legal way, shape, or form as you do "...not have the authority to direct management and policies for which the FFLicense is being applied." (923(d)(1)(B). Employees are not considered Responsible Persons by ATF as they are functioning under their boss' business/personal FFL credentials and business insurance and do not direct management or policies either! FFL's must notify ATF, in writing, of any changes to Responsible Persons status on their FFL.

as for my concern for your well being, i am truly flattered you might believe that, but if you will re-read what i wrote: am actually concerned for the unsuspecting FFL who might have to defend themselves to the ATF from frivolous commentary about their illegal business practices stated on a public forum. specifically provisions of ATF's 5300.4, dtd 2014:
478.94: Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee’s license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary:
478.95: The license furnished to each person licensed under the provisions of this part contains a purchasing certification statement..
.
Why do you continue with this trollish behavior? You have done this repeatedly for a long time. You cite some document to support your post and post a portion of the document that appears to support what you have written, but in fact you cut off the portion of the document that contradicts your post. Do you think that no one else can find the document and read it in full? Here is the portion of 478.94 that immediately follows what you have posted and that you left out (intentionally, I presume):
Provided, That it shall
not be required (a) for a transferee who
has furnished a certified copy of its license
to a transferor to again furnish such certified
copy to that transferor during the term
of the transferee’s current license, (b) for
a licensee to furnish a certified copy of its
license to another licensee if a firearm is
being returned either directly or through
another licensee to such licensee and (c)
for licensees of multilicensed business organizations
to furnish certified copies of
their licenses to other licensed locations
operated by such organization: Provided
further, That a multilicensed business organization
may furnish to a transferor, in
lieu of a certified copy of each license, a
list, certified to be true, correct and complete,
containing the name, address, license
number, and the date of license expiration
of each licensed location operated
by such organization, and the transferor
may sell or otherwise dispose of firearms
as provided by this section to any licensee
appearing on such list without requiring
a certified copy of a license therefrom. A
transferor licensee who has the certified
information required by this section may
sell or dispose of firearms to a licensee for
not more than 45 days following the expiration
date of the transferee’s license.

The ATF will allow the use of their "eZ Check" system, manitained by the ATF, to allow licensed dealers to verify the validity another dealers licenses. You can read about that system here: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffl-ez-check-application
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
11,995
Location
White Oak Plantation
So, I'm not sure if I missed the points you were making, or just find myself more confused than ever.
...
Thanks for the input, it is appreciated.
Welcome to OCDO. Did you enter your SSN on the 4473? It is optional if I recall (advised to do so on the e4473 that my preferred local gun shops use) and by including your SSN it should mitigate any confusion/delays due to name similarities (according to the note for that entry). Good luck and let us know how things work out.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
7,976
Location
here nc
So, I'm not sure if I missed the points you were making, or just find myself more confused than ever.

Sounds like denial appeals aren't even being processed, which means I can wait till the cows come home, and won't hear back, pretty much, forever. Or until funding is restored, plus a decade or so to work through back log.

If I understand, I can try to purchase something else, in 2018, to see if the same thing happens, without creating a legal problem, or making things worse?

Not sure if the troll comment is aimed at me? I don't know you guys, not sure if there's just some friendly BS going on or not, but if it's aimed at me, thanks for providing nothing useful, if not, my apologies for thinking it's all about me! :D

What a ***********, guess I need to go over to Turnbull in person to discuss this more, I feel like I'm spinning my wheels and wasting folks time here....

Thanks for the input, it is appreciated.
mendon, you have not wasted this member's time as i thoroughly enjoyed your query as well as the opportunity to provide you with appropriate facts for you to make decisions regarding resolution of your quandary.

hang in there and enjoy the forum's camaraderie and please post back with what you learn from the NY FFL to mitigate your situation.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
7,976
Location
here nc

snipp... My FFL has given me a copy of his license and if I find somerthing (sic) that I want on the internet, I give my CC number(either by phone or internet) to the dealer that has the gun and send a copy of the license. snipp...
snipp...

By the way, thru your own admission of complicity, your dealer is breaking federal law 478.94 & 478.95 by allowing you to have a copy of their FFL license as well as allowing you to transmit their license on their behalf to other outside FFL entities. You are not listed on the FFL’s license as an authorized agent! (hint, tis a public forum and you may wish to remove that portion from your post)
snipp...
As far as the license. I don't give a damn. I am not presenting myself as a dealer nor acting as a firearms dealer. I am acting as an agent of the licenesee, just as the employees of the store do when they sell one of his guns, or when they receive a gun that has been shipped to the store and just like all the rest of this, it is a very common occurance (sic). Thanks for yuour (sic) concern for my wellbeing (sic).
snipp...

alas, Gutshot i am sorry to inform you, but are not an agent for the FFL ~ not in any legal way, shape, or form as you do "...not have the authority to direct management and policies for which the FFLicense is being applied." (923(d)(1)(B). Employees are not considered Responsible Persons by ATF as they are functioning under their boss' business/personal FFL credentials and business insurance and do not direct management or policies either! FFL's must notify ATF, in writing, of any changes to Responsible Persons status on their FFL.

as for my concern for your well being, i am truly flattered you might believe that, but if you will re-read what i wrote: i am actually concerned for the unsuspecting FFL who might have to defend themselves to the ATF from frivolous commentary about their illegal business practices stated on a public forum. specifically provisions of ATF's 5300.4, dtd 2014:
478.94: Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee’s license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary:
478.95: The license furnished to each person licensed under the provisions of this part contains a purchasing certification statement...
You don't have the slightest idea of what my relationship is to the FFL licensee.
snipp... You have done this repeatedly for a long time. You cite some document to support your post and post a portion of the document that appears to support what you have written, but in fact you cut off the portion of the document that contradicts your post. Do you think that no one else can find the document and read it in full? Here is the portion of 478.94 that immediately follows what you have posted and that you left out (intentionally, I presume):
Provided, That it shall not be required
(a) for a transferee who has furnished a certified copy of its license to a transferor to again furnish such certified copy to that transferor during the term of the transferee’s current license,
(b) for a licensee to furnish a certified copy of its license to another licensee if a firearm is being returned either directly or through another licensee to such licensee and
(c) for licensees of multilicensed business organizations to furnish certified copies of their licenses to other licensed locations operated by such organization:
Provided further, That a multilicensed business organization may furnish to a transferor, in lieu of a certified copy of each license, a list, certified to be true, correct and complete, containing the name, address, license number, and the date of license expiration of each licensed location operated by such organization, and the transferor may sell or otherwise dispose of firearms as provided by this section to any licensee appearing on such list without requiring a certified copy of a license therefrom. A transferor licensee who has the certified information required by this section may sell or dispose of firearms to a licensee for not more than 45 days following the expiration date of the transferee’s license.

The ATF will allow the use of their "eZ Check" system, manitained (sic) by the ATF, to allow licensed dealers to verify the validity another dealers licenses. You can read about that system here: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffl-ez-check-application
so gutshot, please tell me where in my cited information which you believe i left out of 478.94 that is germane to your belief that it specifically states the CUSTOMER is authorized or allowed to send the mandated 'certified copy' of the FFL's license to the transferor? as you initially stated, you are acting as an agent for the dealer...sorry, but no you are not in any official capacity whatsoever acting as the FFL's Responsible Person who has a completed ATF form 7 on file with the ATF's Licensing department!

As for your last comment regarding the 'eZcheck' not sure what your hoped to gain introducing that information into your commentary...

oh wait, you just did the same bloody thing you have just accused me of...apparently left out information you didn't feel suited your position quote:
The purpose of this program is to allow an FFL or other user to verify that a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is valid.

guess the kettle is the same colour as the pot, eh gutshot...
 
Last edited:

gutshot II

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2017
Messages
601
Location
Central Ky.
so gutshot, please tell me where in my cited information which you believe i left out of 478.94 that is germane to your belief that it specifically states the CUSTOMER is authorized or allowed to send the mandated 'certified copy' of the FFL's license to the transferor? as you initially stated, you are acting as an agent for the dealer...sorry, but no you are not in any official capacity whatsoever acting as the FFL's Responsible Person who has a completed ATF form 7 on file with the ATF's Licensing department!

As for your last comment regarding the 'eZcheck' not sure what your hoped to gain introducing that information into your commentary...

oh wait, you just did the same bloody thing you have just accused me of...apparently left out information you didn't feel suited your position quote:
The purpose of this program is to allow an FFL or other user to verify that a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is valid.

guess the kettle is the same colour as the pot, eh gutshot...
Not at all, I never claimed that EzCheck is for customers. This is a red herring. Ez check is to allow the selling dealer to verify the license that I send them is valid, nothing more. I left out nothing. I posted a link to the entire site. I didn't cherry pick parts of it to make it look like I was right, like you did. Once again, a red herring on your part.

I am allowed to send the license, because there is nothing that says I can't. Once again, you are making assumptions about my relationship to my dealer that you have no way of knowing.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
7,976
Location
here nc
Not at all, I never claimed that EzCheck is for customers. This is a red herring. Ez check is to allow the selling dealer to verify the license that I send them is valid, nothing more. I left out nothing. I posted a link to the entire site. I didn't cherry pick parts of it to make it look like I was right, like you did. Once again, a red herring on your part.

I am allowed to send the license, because there is nothing that says I can't. Once again, you are making assumptions about my relationship to my dealer that you have no way of knowing.
the fbi’s ezcheck is for dealers and other USERS, as quoted from the fbi’s ezcheck site W/logo

you now see gutshot, as you commonly insist on stepping out & immediately start calling kind folks names, making accusations of edited self serving information, who’s only crime might be to preclude subject matter overload to reader(s) who could get further confused.

for example your rant about 478.94, i guess i missed your response to my earlier query about what you provided changed the message of what i quoted initially regarding the statement of law that FFLs exchange their documents between themselves, not customers!

and yes, as you have been shown several times already, there is something that says you, a common customer, can not send the FFL’s official license to another FFL to facilitate a firearm transfer, 478.94, re-read it again to see if the statutory words say, “oh ya, by the way, the great gutshot from the Bluegrass state is exempt from this portion of the statute.”

as for making assumptions, i make no assumptions as i just used your bravado on what you specifically stated as fact against what the statuatory criteria actually states.

imagine, the chaos if a reader goes to their local GS and, based on your stated bravado, ask if they could have a copy of the FFL’s liciense so they too could enhance facilitation of a firearm from buds, or, or, or!

now dear sir, if you wish to get *****and call folk names for calling you out for providing incorrect, misleading, information to the members of this forum and the other wanderers who visit for correct information on firearm matters, say it under your breath, but please get over it.

finally, your proceeding statement is NOT normal business practice within the FFL business community!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

OC Freedom

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
646
Location
ADA County, ID
So, I'm not sure if I missed the points you were making, or just find myself more confused than ever.

Sounds like denial appeals aren't even being processed, which means I can wait till the cows come home, and won't hear back, pretty much, forever. Or until funding is restored, plus a decade or so to work through back log.

If I understand, I can try to purchase something else, in 2018, to see if the same thing happens, without creating a legal problem, or making things worse?

Not sure if the troll comment is aimed at me? I don't know you guys, not sure if there's just some friendly BS going on or not, but if it's aimed at me, thanks for providing nothing useful, if not, my apologies for thinking it's all about me! :D

What a ***********, guess I need to go over to Turnbull in person to discuss this more, I feel like I'm spinning my wheels and wasting folks time here....

Thanks for the input, it is appreciated.
You are correct, appeals are in limbo. Contact your most pro-Second Amendment Congressman or Senator and inform them of your situation. Let them know that you have appealed the wrongful denial and that your Constitutional rights have been violated without due process of law. You can Google search other folks that have used this approach and have had success in getting their denial turned into a proceed within weeks.

I have a UPIN and it's no guarantee that you won't receive a delay when buying a firearm. I have been delayed 30% of the time since receiving my UPIN, but that's better than the 100% delay and then a final denial before getting my UPIN. Background checks like most gun laws are a violation of Amendment 2, but that's the world we live in.

GOOD LUCK.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2017
Messages
6
Location
Ionia
Good morning all, and I'll start by apologizing, I got an infraction notice for swearing, despite *** letters out.

I didn't realize this forum was that level of squeaky clean, so again, my apologies to any feathers ruffled. I was simply expressing exasperation, and shall do a better job of using my creative words, going forward....

So finally, at long last, I have progress. I won't bore you with all the minutia but my lawyer of $5000 ended up being a total waste of time and money, other than discovering that there's two options in NY to deal with my situation,and both are free.

Applied for a Certificate of Good Conduct, through the NYS DOC. That got denied, due to "the relief being sought, not being in the public interest". I'll leave that there comment free.

I also applied for a Certificate of Relief from Disability, through the county I was arrested in, 30 something years ago.

That was approved, WOO HOO!

So with that in hand, I now have a question.

This information was sent on to Albany (NY capital) and then, onto the Fed, for entry into the "Triple I" database.

Problem is, the completion of that step, apparently, cannot be known by me, without doing the following.

Pay $18, get finger printed (for now the 4th time) and send it with an application, to the FBI/NICS, requesting my full legal dossier. If the info has been changed, it'll be noted in that file, and I know then, I can proceed to finalize the purchase of my Henry.

If the info has not been added yet? No choice but to repeat this $18 etc etc process, ad infinitum, till the info appears.

Pure, unmitigated guess work.

And to make matters worse, I've been told, that simply asking the FFL to run my purchase again in hopes it's been handled? Creates a situation at NICS where I'm now running afoul of the process, and can possibly impact the entire thing negatively.

So I'd love to know, is that true?

And beyond that, is there any way to get in touch with anyone who would have access to the Triple I, and can simply tell me if my information has been added/updated yet?

Asked a police officer pal of mine, he said at their level (Rochester City Police) they didn't use that database, so he couldn't do anything.

I'm so close, yet still, not there, and I REALLY don't want to screw this up.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
11,995
Location
White Oak Plantation
... And to make matters worse, I've been told, that simply asking the FFL to run my purchase again in hopes it's been handled? Creates a situation at NICS where I'm now running afoul of the process, and can possibly impact the entire thing negatively. ...
Who told you. Not sure about New York State, I can purchase two guns from two different FFLs here in MO and the BC will be conducted and if a proceed is returned...on to FFL number three.

Also, local cops do not use the same (have access to the) DB for criminal BC as is used for gun purchases that is designed to flag prohibited persons (criminals)?
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2017
Messages
6
Location
Ionia
Thanks for the response, and please understand, I'm not questioning your statement when I say this.

The "Triple I" from what I was told by the liaison officer at NICS, between NICS and FFL's, (who I was put into contact with by my FFL, she had received training from him a month or so previously, and knew he was a decently helpful guy) said, the III is one of the larger clearinghouse databases, similar to say, INTERPOL, and is used by the FBI and other agencies for all manner of *criminal database" reasons, it's not just for NICS background checks.

If you know differently, I'm all ears, but it's kind of semantics at that point, it's the database my info needs to be added to, and I need to find a way to discover if it's been added. Hopefully, without the rather time consuming and potentially costly method I've been told to use (by the liaison)....

Who told me about me trying to do a check when I know I was blocked, and might still be till the info is added?

Lawyer, FFL, and liaison.

If they're all full of it, I'm ALL ears. :)
 
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