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NICS Denial, perhaps not the typical questions

Joined
Nov 13, 2017
Messages
6
Location
Ionia
Hey all, I appreciate any input, I may be new here, but am a long time forum user in other areas of life, so hopefully, you'll find me articulate, polite, and reasonable!

This is kinda long, sorry, but the devil is in the details, so please, read if you're curious, or have a good understanding of NICS Denial appeal process, thanks!

I'm in New York. I applied for, and received my concealed carry permit about 2 years ago.

My understanding is that the bar here is pretty high, and I had to jump through all sorts of hoops to get it, but I did.

When I was 18 (1988), I was arrested at the Canadian border, coming back into the US, and had a very small amount of pot and hash, on me. Less than 1 gram total.

My car was confiscated (never got it back) I was charged with two misdemeanors (one for each substance), paid a fine, and waited in jail to be picked up by some friends. No jail time associated with my arrest/conviction.

The records were pre computer, so during my CCW background check, I had to chase it all down myself, pay to have copies made and mailed to me, and handed it personally to the officer investigating, I was honest about it having happened, otherwise, it's unlikely it would have turned up at all, being so minor, and so old. I was questioned heavily, by officer, officers boss, and judge, and subsequently given my CCW.

I then picked up the Ruger .380 LCP I'd pre-purchased to help support the validity of my request for a CCW . I was delayed by NICS till the end of the waiting period, then the gun was released to me.

A year later, I purchased a Glock Gen 4 .45. A repeat of the above happened, and I was given the gun after 7 days.

This Spring, I purchased online, a Henry Big Boy, .44 Mag, lever action, brass, octagonal barrel, gorgeous.

Had it shipped to a local FFL holder, who did the NICS check.

Surprise, delayed, I was getting used to this. I'd been told each previous time that because my name is Craig Smith, that it was likely the issue, so I just happily waited it out.

Got a call on the last day, I got denied. Very surprised, because A: I have my CCW and just passed muster, and B: in all honesty, other than this very minor drug charge from SO long ago, I am totally legal to own a gun. Any way I look at the NICS list for denial reasons, none fit me whatsoever.

So I went through the appeals process, submitted finger prints (despite just having been printed for my CCW), sent it all in, and waited. That was in early June of this year. I also concurrently applied for my VAL (used to be UPIN) so once cleared, this won't happen anymore.

Now nearly Thanksgiving, I was curious, so I sent an email after fruitless phone calls, and heard back that they handled appeals in the order received, and they were currently working on appeals received in August of 2015.

So, with added load going forward, I estimate I will be getting looked at, around 2021. Sorry, but I have to say, WTF? :banghead:

I'm hopefully understandably irritated now (more than before, really) and I've started asking more questions. I can't seem to get any answers though.

A local 2A lawyer begged off, saying she was too focused on Safe Act stuff to take my questions. Sent me to someone else, spoke with their assistant, a week later, nothing.

A buddy gave me an interesting tidbit, that might allow me to at least possess the Henry, and get my local FFL off the hook from hanging onto it for me for several years. My son has purchased several guns, and has no NICS drama whatsoever (uncommon first name I guess?). I can transfer it to him, legally, without much hassle, and get it home. I asked the FFL about it, they were fine with the idea, and agreed that internal family transfers are easy, smooth and legal, but agreed also, that we need to make 100% sure that this firearms serial # and info being associated with a NICS Denial, doesn't impinge on the legality of an internal family transfer.

So, my questions are these.

- Does anyone know if this gun can be transferred to a family member legally while it's under NICS scrutiny?

- Is there any sort of way (not unlike expediting a passport) that I can expedite this appeal process (particularly if the answer to the above question is don't do it)? Heck, if it's a matter of several hundred dollars and it gets done in a few weeks or months, I'd be elated.

- I'm curious if my drug arrest (particularly the hash which is considered a "concentrated form" under federal law) is somehow at the root of all this crap? I am 100% sure there is nothing else, (and wouldn't my CCW background check have ALREADY turned that up?) so the only alternative is my name being common, and my records have been crossed up with someone of same name, but with a not so clean background.

Thanks, hoping someone here has a better understanding of this whole thing, information is like blood from a stone it seems....

Edit: oh, forgot to add this. I was just told that as someone who's bee denied by NICS, that legally, I cannot own ANY firearms now? Does this mean I have to surrender my legally owned guns, or will they just show up and confiscate them? I find that hard to believe, but as I said, info is so hard to get on this stuff!
 
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solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,717
Location
here nc
Welcome to the forum...


First, please realize the ATF’s Form 4473 changed Jan 2017. Please see the following cite for significant changes: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/atf-form-4473-firearms-transaction-record-revisions


Second, I shall presume you have followed ALL the guidance contained in this cite: https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/n...criminal-background-check-system-nics-appeals


Here is a reiteration to what you posted from the ATF’s site:
"The NICS Section’s Appeal Services Team is currently processing appeal cases and Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) cases received in August 2015."


Third, please understand the completion of the ATF’s 4473 is your background info and has absolutely nothing to do w/the firearm s/n.


The problem from my perspective is not with the FFL per se but rather the internet seller who charged your credit card for said firearm purchase and is expecting the receiving FFL to sell it to the named individual on their bill of sale. (could possibly be construed as a "strawman")


My suggestion, have dening FFL return the firearm to seller and you work on getting your $$$ back unless for example you purchased it from gallery of guns, then the FFL is libel for the firearm’s wholesale cost to Davidson’s.


Fourth, you need to find different ‘someone(s)’ to obtain information from~ what BS you get denied and your firearms are confiscated? (A "Denied" message from the NICS indicates the subject of a NICS background check has been matched with a similar name and similar descriptive information of a record containing a state or federal prohibition.)

Fifth, per the cite listed in # 2 above: Due to the Privacy Act of 1974, specific information cannot be disseminated to you via the telephone.


Now if I might suggest a couple of things or request some clarification please…
a. Are you using the ‘same’ FFL for this purchase as your previous one(s)?
b. How did you respond to 11e? Did the FFL play twenty questions or did you volunteer your past?
c. Did they use the computer or telephonic call in system?
d. Are you sure you were ‘denied’ verses “delayed”? if denied, did you get the NICS transaction #?
e. You did in fact receive a written notice from the FBI’s NICS acknowledging receipt of your appeal?
f. Have you requested an Identity History Summary Check IAW this cite: https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/identity-history-summary-checks

please advise if this was helpful to you and look forward to your response(s)
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2017
Messages
6
Location
Ionia
Solus, thanks for the detailed response.

I hope to do it justice, without sounding lazy, cause I'm not!

While I've been around firearms since I was young, spent time hunting with my Dad, plinking at the local range, lots of shooting and safety instruction with Scouts, that's it.

I basically walked away from it all after high school, and only recently got my act together to get my CCW before it got any more difficult.

As such, I have zero background learning on forms, the various acronym soups of government agencies, how they all play together, etc.

I looked at the ATF form updates, and frankly, I'm lost as to how any of it pertains to me, if it does.

Part of my confusion is now compounded, as your indicating that the FFL, or the transaction itself, may be playing into all this. I don't understand how, but happily defer to more informed minds than mine.

I got the Henry from Gunprodeals.com. I asked them about legalities, transfers, etc before starting the process, and was told that the background check had to be done by the FFL it was transferred to. I have no reason to doubt them, but called the FFL locally, and checked, they said sure, have them ship it, we'll do the paperwork, charge a modest transfer fee, and call it good.

They (Turnbull Firearms Restoration) didn't give me any grief, didn't seem put out, and were polite, courteous, and happy to help. No 20 questions, no deep secrets told, etc. They also indicated this was pretty normal stuff, and weren't put out by my request. They also are more involved with high end and antique/classic restorations, so this is kind of a thing they can do, being an FFL, but not their main business.

A: No, different FFL for previous purchases, though the same for the two pistols, just Turnbull/GPD for the Henry.

B: I said no, because it's asking about current use, not past.

C: Computer

D: Delayed till 7 days, then denied. I do have an NTN # if that's what you mean.

E: Yes, got first response telling me something to the effect that my records matched those of someone who was not able to legally possess/purchase firearms, nothing deeper of more specific. I also sent my finger prints and appeal paperwork registered mail, return receipt, and got said receipt, so I know they have it.

F: Nope, didn't know about it, or that I even should.

I simply did what I was told to do. Fill out the paperwork, get finger printed, send it all in, and wait. Got sick of waiting, so I've started asking questions this week!

You mention that the serial # isn't part of the background check paperwork? Or did I miss something?

If I understand, buying a gun on line and shipping it, isn't commonplace? It sounded like an every day thing when I started asking questions, and they all led to "it ships to a local FFL to do the background check", no one ever said it's hinky, don't do it....

Thanks, much appreciated.
 

Va_Nemo

Member
Joined
May 1, 2016
Messages
653
Location
Lynchburg
If I understand, buying a gun on line and shipping it, isn't commonplace? It sounded like an every day thing when I started asking questions, and they all led to "it ships to a local FFL to do the background check", no one ever said it's hinky, don't do it....
Yes it is commonplace. I personally have done is several times.

If you are buying from a dealer it ships to a local FFL and they do the paperwork. That is standard firearm sale procedure.

I would bet a large (to me) sum it happens routinely to folks who hang out here.

Nemo
 
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solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,717
Location
here nc
You are most gracious in your candor in your responses…
Now, to quantify something about the firearm you purchased from Gun Pro Deals…
a. Paid by credit card?
b. Who has the firearm right now ~ Turnbull? Since June?
c. Here is Gun Pro Deals return policies: https://www.gunprodeals.com/store-policies
Firearm Returns
We can certainty asset (sic) you through this process. Gun Pro will accept returns on firearms that have not been transferred but a 25% restocking fee plus shipping cost will be assessed.


Bottom line mate, you paid for a firearm in June ($600+/-), IN FFL transferred to NY FFL, xfer denied by NICS’ background check, no NICS remediation is not immediately available since they are still working on 2015 appeals, and Turnbull still has your paid for firearm!


To clarify regarding my statement about the firearm’s serial number, was to clarify your original statement about transferring the firearm quote while under NICS scrutiny’ was meant to point out the denial has nothing to do with the firearm per se…your background yes, firearm no.


As mentioned, Gun Pro Dealer knows you paid for the firearm, shipped to distance end FFL in ‘your’ name so I am not sure on the legality of ‘transferring’ the rifle to another individual, family member or not!


I hope the quandary regarding the possibility of having your firearms confiscation of your firearms NICS denial.


Way forward is to determine what changed from your previously submitted 4473s and this recent one…a reason why I provided the ATF’s cite the 4473 rules changed in Jan of this year, so you might discern if there was something obvious which jumped out causing you to be denied.


These transactions are commonplace across the nation as VA_Nemo and according to the FBI, NICS has a 91% Immediate Determination Rate. 2016 IG report: https://oig.justice.gov/reports/2016/a1632.pdf


Finally, best recommendation is to have Turnbull return the non-transferrable firearm, sucking up the loss of the 25% restocking fee plus shipping. Then after the first of the year, again go into your original FFL you have dealt with in the past, have them submit a 4473 for the proposed to purchase a local firearm and see what happens. If it goes through, I believe you changed your mind and cancel the sale, but it will provide you what you need to see if someone put in the wrong spelling, S/N, id information, etc. this past June.
 

gutshot II

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2017
Messages
768
Location
Central Ky.
Yes it is commonplace. I personally have done is several times.

If you are buying from a dealer it ships to a local FFL and they do the paperwork. That is standard firearm sale procedure.

I would bet a large (to me) sum it happens routinely to folks who hang out here.


Nemo

You would win that bet, Nemo. I have done dozens of transfers this way. My FFL has given me a copy of his license and if I find somerthing that I want on the internet, I give my CC number(either by phone or internet) to the dealer that has the gun and send a copy of the license. The seller bills my CC to get his money and transfers the gun to my FFL dealer, then ships the gun to the gun store. When it arrives, the dealer enters the gun into his A&D book, calls me, I go in, fill out the 4473 and the dealer completes the transfer from him to me and enters the sale in his A&D book.

The 4473 only contains information about the dealer and the buyer. The only thing about the gun is whether it is a long gun, a hand gun, or an "other weapon". No make, no model, no serial number. The 4473 stays with the dealer. It is not sent to anyone else. It use to perform the background check, if necessary. I am exempt from the background check, becaues I have a Ky. concealed weapons license.

When a background check is submitted, there are three and only three answers possible, proceed(with the sale), denied and delay. The first two are self explanitary. If a "delay" is returned it is a three day delay. There is no 7 day delay or any other number but three. It may seem longer. For example, if the grackground check is initiated on Friday that day does not count, Saturday doesn't count, Sunday doesn't count. Monday is day 1, Tues. is 2, Wed. is day three and the sale can proceed on Thursday, without hearing anything further. In this case, all 7 days in the week are used, but it is still a 3 day delay. If the sale is initiated on Monday, Tuesday is day 1 and Thur. is day 3 and the gun can be delivered on Friday. At any time during this process, the dealer may get a callback and be instructed to "proceed" or the sale can be officially "denied". I have been involved in everyone of these possible scenarios, several times.

If I were to be denied, there is no problem. The original seller has his money from my credit card and has legally transfered the gun to my dealer. My dealer has legally received a transfer from another licened dealer and is not out any money. I am the only one in the deal that has liost anything. That loss can be remedied by getting the background check reversed and getting the gun I wanted or my dealer can sell the gun to somebody else and give me my money back(or at least part of it). That's how it works.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,717
Location
here nc

You would win that bet, Nemo. I have done dozens of transfers this way. My FFL has given me a copy of his license and if I find somerthing that I want on the internet, I give my CC number(either by phone or internet) to the dealer that has the gun and send a copy of the license. The seller bills my CC to get his money and transfers the gun to my FFL dealer, then ships the gun to the gun store. When it arrives, the dealer enters the gun into his A&D book, calls me, I go in, fill out the 4473 and the dealer completes the transfer from him to me and enters the sale in his A&D book.

The 4473 only contains information about the dealer and the buyer. The only thing about the gun is whether it is a long gun, a hand gun, or an "other weapon". No make, no model, no serial number. The 4473 stays with the dealer. It is not sent to anyone else. It use to perform the background check, if necessary. I am exempt from the background check, becaues I have a Ky. concealed weapons license.

When a background check is submitted, there are three and only three answers possible, proceed(with the sale), denied and delay. The first two are self explanitary. If a "delay" is returned it is a three day delay. There is no 7 day delay or any other number but three. It may seem longer. For example, if the grackground check is initiated on Friday that day does not count, Saturday doesn't count, Sunday doesn't count. Monday is day 1, Tues. is 2, Wed. is day three and the sale can proceed on Thursday, without hearing anything further. In this case, all 7 days in the week are used, but it is still a 3 day delay. If the sale is initiated on Monday, Tuesday is day 1 and Thur. is day 3 and the gun can be delivered on Friday. At any time during this process, the dealer may get a callback and be instructed to "proceed" or the sale can be officially "denied". I have been involved in everyone of these possible scenarios, several times.

If I were to be denied, there is no problem. The original seller has his money from my credit card and has legally transfered the gun to my dealer. My dealer has legally received a transfer from another licened dealer and is not out any money. I am the only one in the deal that has liost anything. That loss can be remedied by getting the background check reversed and getting the gun I wanted or my dealer can sell the gun to somebody else and give me my money back(or at least part of it). That's how it works.
With the utmost respect to the esteemed member from the Bluegrass state but your kind attention is directed to section D of the ATF Form 4473, shown in this cite, https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download where the transferee/seller completes questions 24 > 28 regarding manufacturer, model, S/N, type, caliber/gauge, before the transferee/seller signs the official document.

By the way, thru your own admission of complicity, your dealer is breaking federal law 478.94 & 478.95 by allowing you to have a copy of their FFL license as well as allowing you to transmit their license on their behalf to other outside FFL entities. You are not listed on the FFL’s license as an authorized agent! (hint, tis a public forum and you may wish to remove that portion from your post)
 
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gutshot II

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2017
Messages
768
Location
Central Ky.
With the utmost respect to the esteemed member from the Bluegrass state but your kind attention is directed to section D of the ATF Form 4473, shown in this cite, https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download where the transferee/seller completes questions 24 > 28 regarding manufacturer, model, S/N, type, caliber/gauge, before the transferee/seller signs the official document.

By the way, thru your own admission of complicity, your dealer is breaking federal law 478.94 & 478.95 by allowing you to have a copy of their FFL license as well as allowing you to transmit their license on their behalf to other outside FFL entities. You are not listed on the FFL’s license as an authorized agent! (hint, tis a public forum and you may wish to remove that portion from your post)

You are a bit confused. Section D is not part of the background check and is not part of the call in for a background check. That is the process that we have been discussing. The storage of business records of the dealer is a different subject. That portion of the form, with the rest of Form 4473, becomes a permanent record of the sale, for the seller. It will be stored at the dealer's place of business for as long as that dealer remains in business. If the dealer should cease being a federally licenced firearms dealer, then all of the 4473's in his possession are shipped to the ATF. Most of this is done electronically now, but soem dealers have years of paper records stored in boxes. Until the dealer closes his business the government never sees or hears about this portion of Form 4473. The one exception to that is in the event of a "trace". Should a firearm become part of an criminal investigation, it could be beneficial to that investigation to find out who the original owner of that firearm was. The ATF would first contact manufacturer of the firearm to attempt to find out what distrubutor the manufacturer shipped the firearm to, they will then contact the distributor to find out who they sold it to, then they will contact the dealer to find out who they sold it to. In the scenario that I presented, their "search" would eventually lead to me and then I would probably tell them that I had sold the firearm to someone that I did not know at a gun show or that the gun was stolen or lost in a boating accident and the search would be at its conclusion. In the case where a dealer has gone out of business, the ATF will get to search though their many wharehouses for the boxes of the dealer that went out of business and if they can be found and the paper has not deteriorated to nothing but dust, they get to start the "trace" from there. Traces rarely produce much useful information.

As far as the license. I don't give a damn. I am not presenting myself as a dealer nor acting as a firearms dealer. I am acting as an agent of the licenesee, just as the employees of the store do when they sell one of his guns, or when they receive a gun that has been shipped to the store and just like all the rest of this, it is a very common occurance. Thanks for yuour concern for my wellbeing.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2017
Messages
6
Location
Ionia
Curious...

To the best of my knowledge, I filled out/answered everything in the forms, the same, all three times. Is it possible that a mistake was made? Sure. But my info hasn't changed, nor my situation, and despite changes to the form, all my answers would be the same, each time.

I don't have anything that would prevent me from purchasing, but, I'm also cognizant of not wanting to provide an answer that would cause me problems either!

A: Yes, paid with a card

B: Yes Turnbull, as it can't be released to me until my situation is cleared up.

C: I guess I'm unclear on how this helps me, in the long run, returning it, that is.

I'd lose a fair chunk of money returning it, then if purchased again, pay several hundred more only to reacquire the same gun. ($899 MSRP, about $50 to $100 off was the best I could get locally) and the $650 I paid was the cheapest I could find it). Seems like burning a lot of Benjamins to end up in the same place, no?

End of the day, I'm not in a hurry. I own several other guns, so I'm not hot to be making a bunch more purchases any time soon. I'm simply interested in clearing all this up, getting my VAL to prevent this from being an issue SHOULD I want to purchase something down the road.

I'd like to get this gun released, simply so it's not someone elses responsibility (FOR YEARS!) and of course, be able to shoot it.

Hence being curious about transferring to my son, which sounds like it's legal and pretty straightforward in NY.

To clarify your clarification? So the weapon in question isn't why I got jammed up, it's my (well, someone elses far as I know) background that's at issue, yes? But it's serial # etc, is, or is not, part the information associated with my appeal? It's been months, I can;t recall what info has been given to whom.

If I can get it out of Turnbulls hands legally, but simply no longer be the owner of record, and my son becomes that owner, the law is satisfied, and I just wait my turn with the NICS appeal. Or am I wrong in that assumption?

As I think about it, when I filed my appeal, the website was stating they were working on appeals from August of 2015. So, 6 months later, they are still working on the same month? That sounds impossible, like when you're at the deli, and the guy behind the counter somehow forgot to update the "take a ticket and wait for your number" display...:(

And, I don't think it's been said, but there is no expedited process option, correct?
 

solus

Regular Member
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Aug 22, 2013
Messages
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here nc
A. I am sorry you missed the point regarding the 'transferring' the firearm to another family member, but to reiterate:
1. YOU purchased it initially by credit card, i presume
2. IN business FFL TRANSFERRED the firearm, in YOUR name to the NY FFL to complete your background paperwork to TRANSFER the firearm
3. YOU were denied, the firearm is in limbo status and if you paid MSRP for an internet sale (really), you are out the total $899 + sales tax, instead of just $250 (25% restocking fee and Shipping fee).

B. I am sorry you missed the point regarding waiting till after the first of the year and begin another firearm sale to see the what the NICS results are:
1. you wish to purchase a firearm
2. you complete the paperwork just to see if it goes through
3. if it does, then had a change your of heart and cancel the sale
4. if it doesn't, then it shows NICS has something in their records regarding your name.

C. I am sorry you missed the point regarding your denial:
1. as the provided FBI's site pointed out ~ you can not call to get a status
2. as the provided FBI's site pointed out ~ they are backed up working on 2015 denials.
3. backup rationale:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/01/19/fbi-guns-background-checks/78752774/
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20160122/no-way-out-feds-stop-processing-nics-denial-appeals
4. congress was supposed to provide funding in 2016, didn't, and today's congress is as lameduck so no funding anything is moving forward

there is no way to circumvent the 'apparent' suspension of the NICS appeal process you and other 'denied' citizens are experiencing.

so, if i had a significant amount of money hung out there, like you do, i would be contacting the purchaser for a RMA with your tale of woe and see what concessions on the restocking fee could be made and see if they will give you a partial refund on your credit card, then pay shipping and postage to the NY FFL and get the firearm sent back to the seller.
 
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color of law

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Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,343
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

You are a bit confused. Section D is not part of the background check and is not part of the call in for a background check. That is the process that we have been discussing. The storage of business records of the dealer is a different subject. That portion of the form, with the rest of Form 4473, becomes a permanent record of the sale, for the seller. It will be stored at the dealer's place of business for as long as that dealer remains in business. If the dealer should cease being a federally licenced firearms dealer, then all of the 4473's in his possession are shipped to the ATF. Most of this is done electronically now, but soem dealers have years of paper records stored in boxes. Until the dealer closes his business the government never sees or hears about this portion of Form 4473. The one exception to that is in the event of a "trace". Should a firearm become part of an criminal investigation, it could be beneficial to that investigation to find out who the original owner of that firearm was. The ATF would first contact manufacturer of the firearm to attempt to find out what distrubutor the manufacturer shipped the firearm to, they will then contact the distributor to find out who they sold it to, then they will contact the dealer to find out who they sold it to. In the scenario that I presented, their "search" would eventually lead to me and then I would probably tell them that I had sold the firearm to someone that I did not know at a gun show or that the gun was stolen or lost in a boating accident and the search would be at its conclusion. In the case where a dealer has gone out of business, the ATF will get to search though their many wharehouses for the boxes of the dealer that went out of business and if they can be found and the paper has not deteriorated to nothing but dust, they get to start the "trace" from there. Traces rarely produce much useful information.

As far as the license. I don't give a damn. I am not presenting myself as a dealer nor acting as a firearms dealer. I am acting as an agent of the licenesee, just as the employees of the store do when they sell one of his guns, or when they receive a gun that has been shipped to the store and just like all the rest of this, it is a very common occurance. Thanks for yuour concern for my wellbeing.
For clarification, records over 20 years old can be destroyed. See page 77 of the actual manual. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-atf-p-53208/download

12.7-4 All FFLs shall retain each Form 4473 and 4473(LV) for a period not less than 20 years from the date of sale or disposition of the firearms. Forms 4473 obtained by FFLs where the NICS check was initiated, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm was not completed must be retained for a period of not less than 5 years.
 

solus

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Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,717
Location
here nc

snip..
As far as the license. I don't give a damn. I am not presenting myself as a dealer nor acting as a firearms dealer. I am acting as an agent of the licenesee (sic), just as the employees of the store do when they sell one of his guns, or when they receive a gun that has been shipped to the store and just like all the rest of this, it is a very common occurance (sic). Thanks for yuour (sic) concern for my wellbeing (sic).
and you may believe what you will regarding the information contained on the 4473 & the FFL's bound book.

alas, Gutshot i am sorry to inform you, but are not an agent for the FFL ~ not in any legal way, shape, or form as you do "...not have the authority to direct management and policies for which the FFLicense is being applied." (923(d)(1)(B). Employees are not considered Responsible Persons by ATF as they are functioning under their boss' business/personal FFL credentials and business insurance and do not direct management or policies either! FFL's must notify ATF, in writing, of any changes to Responsible Persons status on their FFL.

as for my concern for your well being, i am truly flattered you might believe that, but if you will re-read what i wrote: i am actually concerned for the unsuspecting FFL who might have to defend themselves to the ATF from frivolous commentary about their illegal business practices stated on a public forum. specifically provisions of ATF's 5300.4, dtd 2014:
478.94: Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee’s license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary:
478.95: The license furnished to each person licensed under the provisions of this part contains a purchasing certification statement...
 
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solus

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For clarification, records over 20 years old can be destroyed. See page 77 of the actual manual. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-atf-p-53208/download
CoL, the NAF booklet you referenced is 2009, might i suggest a more current resource for your use: 2014 ATF's 5300.4 ~ page 68, Paragraph 478.129, retention of records if there is an established FFL business; or as Gutshot mentioned, 478.127, discontinuation of business.

https://www.atf.gov/file/11241/download

cheers
 

solus

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Stop feeding the troll.
we shall refrain from directing any commentary towards you which might interrupt your winter drinking pleasure.
”We?” That would be the royal we, or you have a mouse in your pocket, or you are speaking for others?

snipp...
since in polite company, you shouldn't explicitly call a member a troll out by specific name, therefore, this gentleman must presume you could be referring to any posters to this thread, e.g., the OP, Gutshot, VA_Nemo, CoL, or heaven forbid, myself thus my use of the pronoun ~ "WE"

however, by Urban Dictionary's definition, a troll ~ "One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."

since you did not post anything constructive to the OP's query; your timely post could very well be defined as a deliberately provocative message; and your apparent intention was to cause maximum disruption and argument to the thread, it would seem to clear up who is in fact the troll, now doesn't it!
 
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Fallschirjmäger

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CoL, the NAF booklet you referenced is 2009, might i suggest a more current resource for your use: 2014 ATF's 5300.4 ~ page 68, Paragraph 478.129, retention of records if there is an established FFL business; or as Gutshot mentioned, 478.127, discontinuation of business.

https://www.atf.gov/file/11241/download
While I'm sure Color of Law will be overjoyed to have you provide an updated link, I'm curious as to whether there's a whit's worth of difference between the requirements he mentioned and the requirements of the newest publication.

Perusing the publication suggests there wasn't a thing wrong with CoL's summation.
 

solus

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While I'm sure Color of Law will be overjoyed to have you provide an updated link, I'm curious as to whether there's a whit's worth of difference between the requirements he mentioned and the requirements of the newest publication.

Perusing the publication suggests there wasn't a thing wrong with CoL's summation.
forgive me, you are absolutely right, i should have also chastised CoL for referencing a NAF document since this thread concerns non-NAF firearms.

additionally, currency comes into play, but perhaps from your perspective appropriate ATF CFRs do not change, nor are amended, nor clarified, nor are deleted over the span of six + years, which you were so easily able to ascertain from your rudimentary perusal?

thanks for suppling your “whit’s” worth of knowledge to the thread.
 
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So, I'm not sure if I missed the points you were making, or just find myself more confused than ever.

Sounds like denial appeals aren't even being processed, which means I can wait till the cows come home, and won't hear back, pretty much, forever. Or until funding is restored, plus a decade or so to work through back log.

If I understand, I can try to purchase something else, in 2018, to see if the same thing happens, without creating a legal problem, or making things worse?

Not sure if the troll comment is aimed at me? I don't know you guys, not sure if there's just some friendly BS going on or not, but if it's aimed at me, thanks for providing nothing useful, if not, my apologies for thinking it's all about me! :D

What a ***********, guess I need to go over to Turnbull in person to discuss this more, I feel like I'm spinning my wheels and wasting folks time here....

Thanks for the input, it is appreciated.
 
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gutshot II

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and you may believe what you will regarding the information contained on the 4473 & the FFL's bound book.

alas, Gutshot i am sorry to inform you, but are not an agent for the FFL ~ not in any legal way, shape, or form as you do "...not have the authority to direct management and policies for which the FFLicense is being applied." (923(d)(1)(B). Employees are not considered Responsible Persons by ATF as they are functioning under their boss' business/personal FFL credentials and business insurance and do not direct management or policies either! FFL's must notify ATF, in writing, of any changes to Responsible Persons status on their FFL.

as for my concern for your well being, i am truly flattered you might believe that, but if you will re-read what i wrote: i am actually concerned for the unsuspecting FFL who might have to defend themselves to the ATF from frivolous commentary about their illegal business practices stated on a public forum. specifically provisions of ATF's 5300.4, dtd 2014:
478.94: Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee’s license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary:
478.95: The license furnished to each person licensed under the provisions of this part contains a purchasing certification statement...

You don't have the slightest idea of what my relationship is to the FFL licensee.
 
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