smellslikemichigan
Campaign Veteran
yes:dude:
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Macomb Daily "letters to the editor",Hamaneggs reply to"gun proponents oppose mosque"
- Thread starter Haman J.T.
- Start date
yes:dude:
smellslikemichigan
Campaign Veteran
what about stoning?
eye95
Well-known member
I repeat: Where does the Bible teach that WE should kill all non-believers?
Tawnos
Regular Member
Ha! Christianity and Islam are two sides of the same twisted coin.
Romans 1, for example:
Then there's the Deut 18 and Acts 3 combination
And then there's Hebrews:
Done being a hypocrite, or are you going to point that "this is out of context" and then wait for my inevitable "so is what was posted from the Qur'an." FFS, both religions are brutal and based on the thoughts of nomadic desert goat herders' view of the world. Why would you use either as a guide for waht is right and wrong and how to live?
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Jack House
Regular Member
Don't forget Exodus 22:18
This particular verse was demanding the execution of all witches(any rebellious individual).Exodus 22:18 said:
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simmonsjoe
Regular Member
This is why we required citations!
I have disproved EVERY SINGLE lie you just posted. I use EXTENSIVE quotations from the Qu'ran (which you've obviously never read).
Obviously you need to GO BACK AND READ THE PREVIOUS THREADS on the mosque.
I have disproved EVERY SINGLE lie you just posted. I use EXTENSIVE quotations from the Qu'ran (which you've obviously never read).
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simmonsjoe
Regular Member
made it easy for you - The Truth
first things first, some definitions are needed.
Fight ≠ make war ≠ kill. All three of these are used in the Qu'ran distinctly. Also Fight does not always mean physically.(some things translate poorly)
Unbeliever ≠ Christian, Jew, Muslim, or anyone else who believes in Allah.
Unbeliever ≠ Someone who is ignorant about Allah (You must be adequately knowledgeable about God and then reject him.)
Allah = God. Whether or not you believe it to be the same God, the Qu'ran DOES.
Islam ≠ Middle Eastern Culture. Many people are confused about what is their religion and what is culture. The issues of middle eastern crime and violence are not Islamic, even if they portray it as so!
Many of these quotes are from Surah 9 "The Immunity" A little history about this Surah. At this time, Mohommad and his followers were living under Tribal laws, in a tribal land. For the most part, Jews and Christians were also a minority. Mohommad and his followers were hated, and in violation of treaties they had established with many other tribes, they were banished. This Surah told the followers what to do about it.
[strike]Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)[/strike]
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
This portion of the Qu'ran is dealing with the pilgrimage to the Kaaba. The Kaaba was originally built by ABRAHAM. At the time, it was under the control of pagans. These passages discuss the ability to fight your way into the Kaaba. It specifically told them to kill those who originally drove them out of the city(which they did by force), unless they stop attempting to kill you, then you can no longer kill them. It then states you may fight with them to stop any oppression of believers(this would include christians/jews). NOTES: there are different levels of use of force here. In 'fighting oppression,' this is after they return and are co-existing. Mohommad and his followers were returning after being run out of the city. See Surah 9 for more details.
------
[strike]Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)[/strike]
[9.122] And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious?
[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness(resolve); and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
This entire Surah, actually deals with the issue of returning to Mecca. It mandated 4 months of Missionary work, including to those tribes who kicked them out, before they could return by force. In the above instance, 'fight' means actively go out and debate and teach about Islam to your friends, family, and neighbors. This was to be done by those in the foreign tribes who accepted God. (Remember, one cannot be an unbeliever who is not taught about God first.)
----------
[strike]When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)[/strike]
[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
[9.2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.
[9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.
[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.
As stated above, this Surah deals with returning to Mecca. It exempt those who did not violate agreements when running them out, and exempts those who did harm, but became believers before they returned. It also requires any indentured servants captured in the battle who become believers, or pay taxes, be released.(this is a standard clause throughout the Qu'ran. Many of the prisoners taken became tribesmen)
-----
[strike]Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)[/strike]
[9.29]Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
This translation is rough due to the syntax of old arabic. This means you should continue debate with those unbelievers who have already received the truth about God, but have denied it. It also says you cannot require non-believers to follow the restrictions placed upon believers. NOTE: this contradicts those who say you can kill an idolater who refuses God when educated about him. Your only recourse is continued missionary work.
-----
[strike]Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)[/strike]
[3.84] Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa(Moses) and Isa(Jesus) and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
[3.85] And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
When the Qu'ran was given to us, Muslim was a state of being, not its own religion. When Muslim or Believer is used in the Qu'ran, it includes Christians and Jews, as well as many others who may or may not be around anymore. The Qu'ran states there were 400 prophets of God. They are not all named or even spoken of to us in any surviving scripture from any period. This makes it impossible to claim any religion that believes in one supreme being as being unbelievers or infidels.
-----
[strike]The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)[/strike]
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah fights them; how they are turned away!
This is part of that portion of Surah 9 that deals with what will be encountered during missionary work, and how to respond. It states that Jesus being the son of God is a perversion of the faith of Christianity perpetrated by disbelievers of the past. It specifically does not say the Christians of the time saying it are disbelievers. It also says it is a problem for God to deal with. This means we are unable to judge who is or is not a christian based on this point.
-----
[strike]Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)[/strike]
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
[5.34] Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Do not make war against GOD. Very important here, is this DOES NOT SAY WAGE WAR AGAINST MUSLIMS (as we've established includes Jews/Christians). There is an exception to those who surrender. This disproves those Muslims who say the war in Iraq/Afghanistan are wars against God.
-----
[strike]The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)[/strike]
[9.28] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
Sacred Mosque = Kaaba in Saudi Arabia. This does not mean all mosques. They were told not to fear the monetary hardships they may endure for this action. (The kaaba was being used for idol worship before this).
-----
[strike]Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies(22:19)[/strike]
[22.19] These are two adversaries who dispute about their Lord; then (as to) those who disbelieve, for them are cut out garments of fire, boiling water shall be poured over their heads.
[22.20] With it shall be melted what is in their bellies and (their) skins as well.
[22.21] And for them are whips of iron.
[22.22] Whenever they will desire to go forth from it, from grief, they shall be turned back into it, and taste the chastisement of burning.
[22.23] Surely Allah will make those who believe and do good deeds enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; they shall be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and (with) pearls, and their garments therein shall be of silk.
This is revelation about HELL. It can in no way be construed as actionable by man.
-----
[strike]Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)[/strike]
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
This deals with prisoners of war. ransoming oneself refers to working off a debt through indentured servitude. It does NOT allow them to be beheaded! MAKE NOTE these treatments are DIFFERENT than those in [5.33] yet apply to unbelievers met in battle. The Qu'ran distinguishes between unbelievers warring with believers and unbelievers warring against God.
-----
[strike]The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)[/strike]
[8.61] And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
[8.62] And if they intend to deceive you-- then surely Allah is sufficient for you; He it is Who strengthened you with His help and with the believers
[8.63] And united their hearts; had you spent all that is in the earth, you could not have united their hearts, but Allah united them; surely He is Mighty, Wise.
[8.64] O Prophet! Allah is sufficient for you and (for) such of the believers as follow you.
[8.65] O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.
The context for this is the common defense. Notice in 61 it says to make piece with those who are inclined. It then goes to explain that believers are so united as to be strong force. It also tells Mohommad not to force believers to war. (READ: militia)
ALL OF SURAH 8 DEALS WITH MILITARY CODE OF CONDUCT
-----
[strike]Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)[/strike]
[3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
This does not say Muslims can not make friends of unbelievers. It says they cannot choose an unbeliever over a believer.
-----
[strike]Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12)[/strike]
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Surah 8 was revealed after the battle of BADR. 12 is in the middle of a passage describing the battle. It attributes a turning point in the battle to Gods intervention.
-----
[strike]Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)[/strike]
[8.60] And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Surah 8 deals with military code of conduct. This says you should not hide your strength from the enemy, but flaunt it at him. (this is after a war is already started you understand)
It also further proves the common defense was provided by a Militia, and the militia had to supply its own weapons. It says you should(not must) donate as much as you can to the common defense.
-----
The Qur’an certainly proclaims that when the time is appropriate, Muslims must use force to convert the unbelievers to Islam. For the non-Muslims, the alternative to this is to pay the humiliating protection money (Jizya tax) or be killed (by beheading, of course). A militarily dominant Islam, without doubt, precludes the peaceful co-existence with the unbelievers if the Muslims have to abide strictly by the unalterable stipulations of the Qur’an.
-----
[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion
[18.29] And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
I can't argue most of this as you haven't cited anything. Islam is not military dominant. Mohommad did have to fight quite often. The gov't he set up was temporary by design, and its time is long past. The so-called Muslim countries of today are simply countries full of Muslims. As for the Jizya tax (poor tax). Everyone was required to pay this tax. Non-believers had to pay a higher rate, but were exempt from militia duty(among other exemptions). If a non-believer didn't want to pay the higher rate, he could volunteer for the militia and be given the lower rate. the poor were also exempted from the tax. If you did not pay the tax, you were not part of the tribe, and as a non-tribesman you were not covered under any treaties they had. (there were no police, remember. this is tribal law.) this means any other tribe could victimize you with impunity. It did not allow for Muslims to hurt them. It has already been shown above Muslims cannot hold non-muslims to the same standards.
The Qur'an
I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT NOT A SINGLE SURAH 'CITED' WAS CORRECT, NOT EVEN CLOSE. A FEW WERE DOWN-RIGHT FALSIFIED.
first things first, some definitions are needed.
Fight ≠ make war ≠ kill. All three of these are used in the Qu'ran distinctly. Also Fight does not always mean physically.(some things translate poorly)
Unbeliever ≠ Christian, Jew, Muslim, or anyone else who believes in Allah.
Unbeliever ≠ Someone who is ignorant about Allah (You must be adequately knowledgeable about God and then reject him.)
Allah = God. Whether or not you believe it to be the same God, the Qu'ran DOES.
Islam ≠ Middle Eastern Culture. Many people are confused about what is their religion and what is culture. The issues of middle eastern crime and violence are not Islamic, even if they portray it as so!
Many of these quotes are from Surah 9 "The Immunity" A little history about this Surah. At this time, Mohommad and his followers were living under Tribal laws, in a tribal land. For the most part, Jews and Christians were also a minority. Mohommad and his followers were hated, and in violation of treaties they had established with many other tribes, they were banished. This Surah told the followers what to do about it.
[strike]Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)[/strike]
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
This portion of the Qu'ran is dealing with the pilgrimage to the Kaaba. The Kaaba was originally built by ABRAHAM. At the time, it was under the control of pagans. These passages discuss the ability to fight your way into the Kaaba. It specifically told them to kill those who originally drove them out of the city(which they did by force), unless they stop attempting to kill you, then you can no longer kill them. It then states you may fight with them to stop any oppression of believers(this would include christians/jews). NOTES: there are different levels of use of force here. In 'fighting oppression,' this is after they return and are co-existing. Mohommad and his followers were returning after being run out of the city. See Surah 9 for more details.
------
[strike]Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)[/strike]
[9.122] And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious?
[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness(resolve); and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
This entire Surah, actually deals with the issue of returning to Mecca. It mandated 4 months of Missionary work, including to those tribes who kicked them out, before they could return by force. In the above instance, 'fight' means actively go out and debate and teach about Islam to your friends, family, and neighbors. This was to be done by those in the foreign tribes who accepted God. (Remember, one cannot be an unbeliever who is not taught about God first.)
----------
[strike]When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)[/strike]
[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
[9.2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.
[9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.
[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.
As stated above, this Surah deals with returning to Mecca. It exempt those who did not violate agreements when running them out, and exempts those who did harm, but became believers before they returned. It also requires any indentured servants captured in the battle who become believers, or pay taxes, be released.(this is a standard clause throughout the Qu'ran. Many of the prisoners taken became tribesmen)
-----
[strike]Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)[/strike]
[9.29]Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
This translation is rough due to the syntax of old arabic. This means you should continue debate with those unbelievers who have already received the truth about God, but have denied it. It also says you cannot require non-believers to follow the restrictions placed upon believers. NOTE: this contradicts those who say you can kill an idolater who refuses God when educated about him. Your only recourse is continued missionary work.
-----
[strike]Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)[/strike]
[3.84] Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa(Moses) and Isa(Jesus) and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
[3.85] And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
When the Qu'ran was given to us, Muslim was a state of being, not its own religion. When Muslim or Believer is used in the Qu'ran, it includes Christians and Jews, as well as many others who may or may not be around anymore. The Qu'ran states there were 400 prophets of God. They are not all named or even spoken of to us in any surviving scripture from any period. This makes it impossible to claim any religion that believes in one supreme being as being unbelievers or infidels.
-----
[strike]The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)[/strike]
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah fights them; how they are turned away!
This is part of that portion of Surah 9 that deals with what will be encountered during missionary work, and how to respond. It states that Jesus being the son of God is a perversion of the faith of Christianity perpetrated by disbelievers of the past. It specifically does not say the Christians of the time saying it are disbelievers. It also says it is a problem for God to deal with. This means we are unable to judge who is or is not a christian based on this point.
-----
[strike]Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)[/strike]
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
[5.34] Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Do not make war against GOD. Very important here, is this DOES NOT SAY WAGE WAR AGAINST MUSLIMS (as we've established includes Jews/Christians). There is an exception to those who surrender. This disproves those Muslims who say the war in Iraq/Afghanistan are wars against God.
-----
[strike]The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)[/strike]
[9.28] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
Sacred Mosque = Kaaba in Saudi Arabia. This does not mean all mosques. They were told not to fear the monetary hardships they may endure for this action. (The kaaba was being used for idol worship before this).
-----
[strike]Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies(22:19)[/strike]
[22.19] These are two adversaries who dispute about their Lord; then (as to) those who disbelieve, for them are cut out garments of fire, boiling water shall be poured over their heads.
[22.20] With it shall be melted what is in their bellies and (their) skins as well.
[22.21] And for them are whips of iron.
[22.22] Whenever they will desire to go forth from it, from grief, they shall be turned back into it, and taste the chastisement of burning.
[22.23] Surely Allah will make those who believe and do good deeds enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; they shall be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and (with) pearls, and their garments therein shall be of silk.
This is revelation about HELL. It can in no way be construed as actionable by man.
-----
[strike]Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)[/strike]
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
This deals with prisoners of war. ransoming oneself refers to working off a debt through indentured servitude. It does NOT allow them to be beheaded! MAKE NOTE these treatments are DIFFERENT than those in [5.33] yet apply to unbelievers met in battle. The Qu'ran distinguishes between unbelievers warring with believers and unbelievers warring against God.
-----
[strike]The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)[/strike]
[8.61] And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
[8.62] And if they intend to deceive you-- then surely Allah is sufficient for you; He it is Who strengthened you with His help and with the believers
[8.63] And united their hearts; had you spent all that is in the earth, you could not have united their hearts, but Allah united them; surely He is Mighty, Wise.
[8.64] O Prophet! Allah is sufficient for you and (for) such of the believers as follow you.
[8.65] O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.
The context for this is the common defense. Notice in 61 it says to make piece with those who are inclined. It then goes to explain that believers are so united as to be strong force. It also tells Mohommad not to force believers to war. (READ: militia)
ALL OF SURAH 8 DEALS WITH MILITARY CODE OF CONDUCT
-----
[strike]Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)[/strike]
[3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
This does not say Muslims can not make friends of unbelievers. It says they cannot choose an unbeliever over a believer.
-----
[strike]Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12)[/strike]
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Surah 8 was revealed after the battle of BADR. 12 is in the middle of a passage describing the battle. It attributes a turning point in the battle to Gods intervention.
-----
[strike]Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)[/strike]
[8.60] And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Surah 8 deals with military code of conduct. This says you should not hide your strength from the enemy, but flaunt it at him. (this is after a war is already started you understand)
It also further proves the common defense was provided by a Militia, and the militia had to supply its own weapons. It says you should(not must) donate as much as you can to the common defense.
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The Qur’an certainly proclaims that when the time is appropriate, Muslims must use force to convert the unbelievers to Islam. For the non-Muslims, the alternative to this is to pay the humiliating protection money (Jizya tax) or be killed (by beheading, of course). A militarily dominant Islam, without doubt, precludes the peaceful co-existence with the unbelievers if the Muslims have to abide strictly by the unalterable stipulations of the Qur’an.
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[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion
[18.29] And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
I can't argue most of this as you haven't cited anything. Islam is not military dominant. Mohommad did have to fight quite often. The gov't he set up was temporary by design, and its time is long past. The so-called Muslim countries of today are simply countries full of Muslims. As for the Jizya tax (poor tax). Everyone was required to pay this tax. Non-believers had to pay a higher rate, but were exempt from militia duty(among other exemptions). If a non-believer didn't want to pay the higher rate, he could volunteer for the militia and be given the lower rate. the poor were also exempted from the tax. If you did not pay the tax, you were not part of the tribe, and as a non-tribesman you were not covered under any treaties they had. (there were no police, remember. this is tribal law.) this means any other tribe could victimize you with impunity. It did not allow for Muslims to hurt them. It has already been shown above Muslims cannot hold non-muslims to the same standards.
The Qur'an
I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT NOT A SINGLE SURAH 'CITED' WAS CORRECT, NOT EVEN CLOSE. A FEW WERE DOWN-RIGHT FALSIFIED.
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Taurus850CIA
Regular Member
I agree.
IF the property was purchased completely free of government funding, by non-government officials, and those purchasers are legal Americans, exercising their right to freedom of religion, then the issue of the Mosque is moot. People are fully entitled to their opinion of whether it ought to be built there ( I personally find it extremely offensive ), but legally and Constitutionally it is sound. The undermining would be fighting the building of the Mosque by twisting or trying to change the principles our country was founded on in order to see their opinion enforced.
+1
In this country, murder is illegal, therefore if they decide to put into practice what they "preach", they would suffer legal consequences. However, as a friend of mine says, if they are allowed to populate and spread their beliefs, we could be in a world of hurt.
I love it!You were referencing a poll. I thought you might have some hard fact reference to back up the fact you presented. Silly my for not believing YOUR words for being Gospel
Thank you for setting me on the path if righteousness, great teacher.
I've considered putting him on ignore as well, but he's not always a complete jerk, and often has brutally honest, solid points that need to be said.
Could it be that he also put you on ignore? You're not the only one with that option, you know. In my last address to you, I tried to treat you with respect, and point out a tendency you have for taking things very personally, and your resultant tendency to stand with a stick in the hornets nest. Ironically your response proved my point. You can lead a horse to water...
+1
+1. It has been the posters' responsibility to post citation for what is claimed to be fact.
Very well put, sir.
slowfiveoh
Regular Member
I'd love to live without either ahorrent religious belief having any sort of impact whatsoever on my chosen way of life.
I love the human beings interpretation of what an all powerful and/or supreme cosmic being beyond comprehension "told them to do, or not to do".
I especially love it when they dictate said communications to me, in an effort to make me follow their flying spaghetti monsters words.
I am sure an infinite, all knowing being of incomprehensible power is really mad at me for not erecting something to worship him. I'm sure he is concerned if I elect to work on a Sunday.
Cause, you know...
Omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent beings roll that way...
I love the human beings interpretation of what an all powerful and/or supreme cosmic being beyond comprehension "told them to do, or not to do".
I especially love it when they dictate said communications to me, in an effort to make me follow their flying spaghetti monsters words.
I am sure an infinite, all knowing being of incomprehensible power is really mad at me for not erecting something to worship him. I'm sure he is concerned if I elect to work on a Sunday.
Cause, you know...
Omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent beings roll that way...
eye95
Well-known member
You know what the beauty of Christianity is? You are free to accept or reject Jesus. I personally resent your implying that I (or any other Christian on this board) has "dictated" a thing to you.
Please note that I am not saying your beliefs are "abhorrent." I will leave that little bit of incivility to you.
Tawnos
Regular Member
Know what the problem is? People believe the voodoo and vote to impose that belief upon others, rather than just following their own creed and letting others do the same. That's how we end up with blue state laws (crazy ass liquor laws), special benefits for married people while not allowing same sex couples to be married, drug warriors who blow billions every year, morality laws that amount to "this is against the bible", et cetera.
I'm more than happy to reject a being that doesn't exist, as much good as it does. The problem is that people who believe those fables end up impacting me and others around me, directly. I'll ignore the extremists like WBC or FLDS or ...
Haman J.T.
New member
What the hell does any of this have to do with OC! Get a grip and grow up! Did anyone read the letters to the editor or you just going to bash eachothers beliefs?If so,go to a beliefs forum!
Tawnos
Regular Member
Welcome to the SOCIAL LOUNGE. This is not the OC only forum, and, last I checked, your post was related to the community center called park 51, NOT OC.
I think after the rename, they should have called it the YMMA, similar to the YMCA. Then it would be particularly striking to see people arguing against it.
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
Perhaps this is a good place to quote Sir Francis Bacon:
The human understanding, once it has adopted opinions, either because they were already accepted and believed, or because it likes them, draws everything else to support and agree with them. And though it may meet a greater number and weight of contrary instances, it will, with great and harmful prejudice, ignore or condemn or exclude them by introducing some distinction, in order that the authority of those earlier assumptions may remain intact and unharmed.
Although I have studied cognitive processes inherent within groups, I am still surprised by daily evidence of the truth of this passage.
The human understanding, once it has adopted opinions, either because they were already accepted and believed, or because it likes them, draws everything else to support and agree with them. And though it may meet a greater number and weight of contrary instances, it will, with great and harmful prejudice, ignore or condemn or exclude them by introducing some distinction, in order that the authority of those earlier assumptions may remain intact and unharmed.
Although I have studied cognitive processes inherent within groups, I am still surprised by daily evidence of the truth of this passage.
eye95
Well-known member
I think that is a jaded view.
While many of us may seem unchangeable in our outlook, I can assure you that I am not in the place I was 30 years ago, or even 10, or even 1. As a matter of fact, I grew from atheism into Christianity.
That one cannot immediately see folks evolving in their thought does not mean it is not happening. It means that the observer is not being patient.
We often see in others (usually incorrectly) our own failings.
While many of us may seem unchangeable in our outlook, I can assure you that I am not in the place I was 30 years ago, or even 10, or even 1. As a matter of fact, I grew from atheism into Christianity.
That one cannot immediately see folks evolving in their thought does not mean it is not happening. It means that the observer is not being patient.
We often see in others (usually incorrectly) our own failings.
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
I think YOU are correct.
Jack House
Regular Member
The letter was disappointing. You fell right into their hands with it. What you should have said is that individual OC supporters both support, and protest the building of the Mosque. There is no unified position by OC supporters on the Mosque. I would have added that most OC supporters recognize the constitutional right of the people to build the Mosque.
Haman J.T.
New member
This sarted on the OC forum and was transfered to the lounge.The letters were about OCer bashing.Read em!
Haman J.T.
New member
I mentioned that OCers as part of the majority of americans had a problem with the insensitivity of the issue,not the constitutionality.Did you read my reply "Majority against the mosque",which the editor named?
eye95
Well-known member
A lot of folks who don't like the dissent with the mosque cannot rationally deal with that dissent being, "They shouldn't build the mosque." So, they invent the strawman that we are trying to deny the constitutional rights of the mosque builders (which we recognize and support) because that imagined argument is possible (even easy) to refute.
They are arguing with themselves, not with the opposition.