LEO's attemt to disarm me

[NC-Heel]

I know this has nothing to do with open carrying but I feel it is relevant enough to share.

Left a restaurant in south Charlotte that serves alcohol and was concealed carrying. Pull into Harris Teeter to get some snacks and see blue lights. I have a tinted tag cover that defeats those automatic plate readers that are popping up all over. CMPD Officer, appears to be in his 20's, approaches from the passenger side.

Officer: "Do you have your license?"

Me: "Yes and I have a concealed carry permit."

He proceeds to ask if I am armed and where is the firearm. I tell him on my left side. He tells me to keep my hands on the steering wheel and proceeds around the car to look in the drivers side door window. He asks if the firearm is under my sweatshirt. I tell him yes and he instructs me to exit the vehicle. I get out and he instructs me to turn around and put my hands on the car. He lifts my shirt where my Glock 19 is located in a N82 Pro IWB holster.

Officer: "I am going to remove your firearm."

Me: " I would rather you not. It is secure there and I don't feel comfortable with you trying to remove a loaded firearm from my belt."

Officer: "Uh, OK. Where is your wallet?"

Me: "In my left front pocket by my firearm."

Officer: "I am going to remove your wallet from your pocket."

Me: "That is fine."

Notice he has never asked for any permission but waited till I responded before taking any action. Typical LEO MO by phrasing questions as statements. He took my license out of my card wallet and placed the rest of the wallet on the drivers seat. He then told me to step in front of the car door and place my hands on the hood of my car. About that time a second unit showed up and he went to speak to them. I realized the hood of my car was cold and took my hands and clasped them together against my chest and leaned against the care so as not to appear threatening. The second officer that arrived then approaches me.

Second Officer: I'm just going to stand here with you while he runs your license. I understand you not wanting to be disarmed. It is your right."

Me: "Thanks for that."

He asked if I work for Glock and I thought huh but then remembered that I had a Glock Professional hat on. I said no but I am a Glock Armorer. First officer returns and asks me to return to the drivers seat then gives me a warning ticket for the tag cover.

He never asked to see my Concealed Permit but it is issued by the Mecklenburg County Sheriff so I don't know if Charlotte Mecklenburg Police can look that up.

I thought most would find this interesting and I just wanted to point out that it is fine if you respectfully stand up for your rights and you don't have to surrender a firearm due to "officer safety".

 

[KainVictus]

Hm well job handling the LEO. But i gotta say you're lucky he didn't get you in the restaurant parking lot.

 

[Zannex]

Hm well job handling the LEO. But i gotta say you're lucky he didn't get you in the restaurant parking lot.

Just curious, why is he lucky that he didn't get pulled in the restaurant parking lot. If he was concealing, it's not illegal to dine in a restaurant that serves alcohol anymore, unless it's posted. Again, I am just curious about your post, and if there is something that I didn't know about.

 

[Maverick9]

First thanks for the story. But did you know NC had this law adopted in 2010?

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/12/01/835589/license-tag-must-come-clean-today.html

The 'alcohol' part is somewhat inconsistent - they talk about 'if the premises is posted', but not about what posting is (size of sign, location, all entrances). It's more like a 'gotcha law'.
In any place where alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed (such as some restaurants) if the premises are posted as prohibited;

All sorts of NC laws are like that. They have a 'move over law' which includes moving over on a two lane highway OR SLOWING DOWN - and it can be if there are stopped vehicles - of a certain type - and NOW to include tree trimmers. I can see a cop stopping you and FORGETTING to say the part about 'slowing down' because he didn't note it, making it possible for NC cops to pull you over for any darn thing. For example the manual reading of the plate can even include a clear cover - the test is "IF THE OFFICER SAYS HE/SHE CAN'T READ IT", which might mean they need glasses. They cite various types of 'illegibility', plate covers, frames, I guess dirty, paint partly rubbed off. But what if their own colors contrast - a red year tag with white writing is hard to read any time.

OK, as to the informing - that's vague also: FROM THE DOJ site, which is not exactly 'case law', or legally binding, but the attorney general can give HIS interpretation of the codified law. Here's what they say - note the 'gotcha' at the end:
http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/19be6294-bfbf-4875-bbef-ac2ebb6f47b2/Concealed-Weapon-Reciprocity.aspx
Bold is my comment

To possess a concealed handgun in North Carolina, you must:

Carry your permit and a valid form of identification with you at all times. (unless you're not possessing? What is possessing - locked in the trunk?)
Disclose the fact that you have a valid concealed handgun permit when you are approached or addressed by any law enforcement officer in North Carolina. (Approached, addressed? Really? At a party, or during RAS and detained - maybe they have soccer moms write the laws in NC?)
Inform the officer that you are in possession of a concealed handgun. (what if you're not - left it at home? Note the circular verbiage - to possess...you must inform you are in possession - on your person? In the trunk?)
Present both the permit and valid identification at the request of an officer (underlining mine - this makes it hard for even the officers to KNOW just WTF the law requires. I can see you getting lectured because you didn't volunteer)
NOTE: You should not attempt to display either your weapon or your permit unless directed to by an officer. (oh there's a 'NOTE'? Really, do the cops need a double reminder? WHY?? Are they dense, or are they implying you are dense?)

IMO, there is NO EARTHLY reason that you must be removed from your car, made to perp walk like a bank robber OVER AN EQUIPMENT VIOLATION. Are NC cops that chicken-crap? YOU HAD A PERMIT! What do they do with real criminals - wear adult diapers? Excuse themselves to gear up so they can wet their pants?

I'm sorry you were treated like that. I'd file an FOIA and have them reprimanded. You were not in commission of a crime - not speeding, not drunk driving and because they COULD freaking read your plate you got a warning. It was clearly HARASSMENT.

I suspect because of your type of car, your age, or the plate reader (which read your plate just fine) flagged you as a permit holder and they thought they'd dick you around - don't mistake polite for professional and knowing their job.

These dumbarse laws just give LE more wiggle room to harass you. EVERYONE is using plate readers now, which are not defeated by smoky or tinted plates.

HAVING SAID THAT, you Sir, are a dumbarse for leaving that cover on WHILE carrying. Take the freaking thing off, stay out of bars (drinking) and be responsible. Consider yourself lucky - given the type of 'professionalism' NC cops have (which varies, but can be quite wanting).

Stay safe, wise up!

 

[Maverick9]

Just curious, why is he lucky that he didn't get pulled in the restaurant parking lot. If he was concealing, it's not illegal to dine in a restaurant that serves alcohol anymore, unless it's posted. Again, I am just curious about your post, and if there is something that I didn't know about.

Zannex, you are correct, according to my reading of the SPAGHETTI CODE that serves as NC law. It's not illegal to dine there and carry if the owner allows - why is this even IN THIS SECTION OF THEIR LAW?

It's ILLEGAL TO DRINK AND DRIVE - over a certain BAC level - is there a separate bit of goobledeygook in the law for a 'carrying' pile on charge or did they forget that. Believe me if the cop sees you leaving a restaurant that serves alcohol and his dB flags you as a permit holder, GOOD LUCK not getting charged under a 'missing law', meaning LE can make it up on the fly.

 

[NC-Heel]

In NC we can carry concealed in restaurants that serve alcohol and the restaurant that I go to has not posted. i have thanked management for that too. The article you posted was about the tag surrounds that would cover the state name and registration stickers that are on NC tags. This is a tinted cover that is fairly dark and prevents the auto plate readers from working. The automatic readers work mostly off of reflection and the tinting on the cover stops that. People have commented before that they can't believe I never get harassed about the cover.

When he had me step out of the car I was okay with it because my firearm is in close proximity to my wallet and I thought he was going to ask me to produce my DL at that point. I got slightly concerned when he asked me to turn around but I was trying to be as cooperative as possible and still stand up for my rights. If I had realized that his command for me to exit the vehicle was to unarm me I would have protested immediately. I was trying to avoid the fine for the tag cover also.

AFAIK there is no database available to LEO that links anyone as a Concealed Carry Permit holder in NC like other states have.

 

[NC-Heel]

Maverick, the tinted plate does defeat the plate readers I have tested it on. The Mecklenburg Sheriff cars have them to search for cars in parking lots for people that owe property taxes on their cars. I have tested on one of their units. Those readers work off the reflective properties of the plate. It won't defeat cameras because they actually take a picture.

He didn't see me leave a restaurant as the stop took place several miles away. The reason I mentioned the restaurant served alcohol is that in NC we just received (Oct 1, 2013) the privilege to conceal carry in those establishments. I had sweat tea to drink with my meal. If I had went to a restaurant that did not serve alcohol I would have exercised my right to open carry.

 

[WalkingWolf]

maybe they have soccer moms write the laws in NC?

Paul Valone[GRNC] has said he writes the gun laws in NC.

The Mecklenburg Sheriff cars have them to search for cars in parking lots for people that owe property taxes on their cars.

Property taxes are collected for vehicles at the same time they are registered, or renewed. One cannot get current tags for a vehicle that has not been inspected or property taxes paid.

 

[American Patriot]

In NC we can carry concealed in restaurants that serve alcohol and the restaurant that I go to has not posted. i have thanked management for that too. The article you posted was about the tag surrounds that would cover the state name and registration stickers that are on NC tags. This is a tinted cover that is fairly dark and prevents the auto plate readers from working. The automatic readers work mostly off of reflection and the tinting on the cover stops that. People have commented before that they can't believe I never get harassed about the cover.

When he had me step out of the car I was okay with it because my firearm is in close proximity to my wallet and I thought he was going to ask me to produce my DL at that point. I got slightly concerned when he asked me to turn around but I was trying to be as cooperative as possible and still stand up for my rights. If I had realized that his command for me to exit the vehicle was to unarm me I would have protested immediately. I was trying to avoid the fine for the tag cover also.

AFAIK there is no database available to LEO that links anyone as a Concealed Carry Permit holder in NC like other states have.

Compare your CHP number with your Driver license number.

 

[solus]

maverick, you seem to have a knack of posting information w/o appropriately finding the right information to quote to forum readers.

bottom line you do yourself as well as forum membership an injustice by only doing a rudimentary search (WIKI) for information to pass as gospel. bottom line...in NC do not read the dept of justice website BS as it is not the law nor enforceable as such.

therefore, in the tarheel state, 14-415.11 statutes states: (bolding is my emphasis)

The person shall carry the permit together with valid identification whenever the person is carrying a concealed handgun, shall disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person holds a valid permit and is carrying a concealed handgun when approached or addressed by the officer, and shall display both the permit and the proper identification upon the request of a law enforcement officer.

as you might notice, there is no subjective connotation mentioned in the statute, so if it at your sister's Bday party and a LE approaches and you are CC'g, you disclose and if request proffer a CHP!

you can be frivolous and holler all you want about it being vague if you want, but if you are CC'g you run the risk of losing your firearm to the nice ppl who have the badges and you can run the goat rope of trying to retrieve it back out of the evidence locker.

bit snarky aren't we while calling the OP a dumba$$?

finally, you pointed to a news media about the license plates...do you have a cite for this piece of invaluable knowledge?

ipse

 

[Maverick9]

maverick, you seem to have a knack of posting information w/o appropriately finding the right information to quote to forum readers.
...
therefore, in the tarheel state, 14-415.11 statutes states: (bolding is my emphasis)

The person shall carry the permit together with valid identification whenever the person is carrying a concealed handgun, shall disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person holds a valid permit and is carrying a concealed handgun when approached or addressed by the officer, and shall display both the permit and the proper identification upon the request of a law enforcement officer.

as you might notice, there is no subjective connotation mentioned in the statute, so if it at your sister's Bday party and a LE approaches and you are CC'g, you disclose and if request proffer a CHP!

you can be frivolous and holler all you want about it being vague if you want, but if you are CC'g you run the risk of losing your firearm to the nice ppl who have the badges and you can run the goat rope of trying to retrieve it back out of the evidence locker.

Mea Culpa - I'm not trying to be vague, or look at the wrong places, and I stipulated that the AG site isn't LAW. IN a court of LAW, Lawyers and Judges require citations, looking specifically at language, definitions, totality of situations, yada, yada.

BUT in the street, in front of the LEO you have no idea where he got his (usually wrong, made up, lied about, or honestly mistaken) view. He can LEAVE OFF an 'or' or an 'and' in the law and unless you are setting up court right there, HE is "right".

The vaguer the law, even the more out-spoken the PRESS or the AG is, the more confusing to laypersons, LEOs, you name it.

EVERYONE wants to be 'right'. Cops are 'Deemed' right in the moment. You just can't pull out copy and say 'Sir, read this, you are mistakenly interpreting it'.

Some states manage to have CLEAR and concise law, they're not trying to obfuscate by verbigiation, to 'trip you up', to make it hard to know what to do. SOME OTHER states, LEOs, Judges, CLERKS (fer cryin out loud) try to MAKE you think you need to do "Extra-Legal" stuff. You have to file suit and threaten them (legally) with suit before a judge to get them to do their jobs. To read the statutes.

It's like the 'High Priest' class, or Orthodox Jewish sects - they don't want you to crack the code. If you do they'll hammer you some other way.

Wise up, stay out of NC (among others), don't have obviously bad/banned equipment.

I STAND CORRECTED on plate readers vs cameras. Apparently a plate reader, which can read a plate at 40 mph, going by perpendicularly to the LEO, visible for less than 1.5 seconds at 50 yards can read the plates just fine. IME.

The OP knew he had risky equipment, did not exactly know the law, and the LEO went WAY overboard. Anything else? You can't win in NC. In college we learned to avoid their LE like the plague - you could be arrested for ANYTHING they could dream up if they didn't like the way you look.

 

[NC-Heel]

The OP knew he had risky equipment, did not exactly know the law, and the LEO went WAY overboard.

What law did I not know?

 

[NC-Heel]

The Mecklenburg Sheriff cars have them to search for cars in parking lots for people that owe property taxes on their cars.

Property taxes are collected for vehicles at the same time they are registered, or renewed. One cannot get current tags for a vehicle that has not been inspected or property taxes paid.

That only started within the last year. The tag I have now I paid taxes after getting it. When I renew I have to pay then.

http://charmeck.org/mecklenburg/cou...pages/county'slicenserecognitionsoftware.aspx

 

[Maverick9]

What law did I not know?

That the LEO had no legal right to remove you from your car. You could have called for a sergeant to come to the scene and remained in your car, hands off your firearm, in plain view.

When the sergeant arrived, you could explain you are legal, you have an equipment violation, you decline to be searched, jerked around and you'd like your ticket or a warning, please, and to not be further detained, beyond what the Supremes declare is legal. Do you have a copy of all NC firearm and traffic violation rules and your rights on you? We can't expect to memorize them and recall when in distress, so a quick flash card for your and their edification might work. Many LEOs will get very angry if you try to play road-side lawyer. They are NOT concerned with anything but their own quotas, their entitlement, and their emotional content. As a side concern, some are concerned with the law and not abusing authority and going home to sleep in their own bed, as are most stoppees.

That is the way it works in most places. However, IF the officer makes a demand, legal or not, you must comply if he's beyond reason. You run a recorder or two and you fight it later.

You SHOULD fight this illegal incursion to prevent (maybe) it happening to others, by (possibly) requesting an FOIA, consulting a lawyer, getting a financial settlement from the city, the department, the individual. You risk becoming a target for retribution among the overly-entitled steroid abusing members of that community.

Here you went home alive. But you posted the account, despite being somewhat culpable. Kudos. Learn from this young padewan and go about the world more aware.

 

[OC for ME]

<snip>

as you might notice, there is no subjective connotation mentioned in the statute, so if it at your sister's Bday party and a LE approaches and you are CC'g, you disclose and if request proffer a CHP!

<snip>

It may not be required to disclose when on private property. Also, there may not be a requirement to have a CHP in your possession while CCing on private property. A cop's authority is severely limited on private property, contrary to what LE would like to claim.

 

[solus]

That the LEO had no legal right to remove you from your car. You could have called for a sergeant to come to the scene and remained in your car, hands off your firearm, in plain view.

When the sergeant arrived, you could explain you are legal, you have an equipment violation, you decline to be searched, jerked around and you'd like your ticket or a warning, please, and to not be further detained, beyond what the Supremes declare is legal. Do you have a copy of all NC firearm and traffic violation rules and your rights on you? We can't expect to memorize them and recall when in distress, so a quick flash card for your and their edification might work. Many LEOs will get very angry if you try to play road-side lawyer. They are NOT concerned with anything but their own quotas, their entitlement, and their emotional content. As a side concern, some are concerned with the law and not abusing authority and going home to sleep in their own bed, as are most stoppees.

That is the way it works in most places. However, IF the officer makes a demand, legal or not, you must comply if he's beyond reason. You run a recorder or two and you fight it later.

You SHOULD fight this illegal incursion to prevent (maybe) it happening to others, by (possibly) requesting an FOIA, consulting a lawyer, getting a financial settlement from the city, the department, the individual. You risk becoming a target for retribution among the overly-entitled steroid abusing members of that community.

Here you went home alive. But you posted the account, despite being somewhat culpable. Kudos. Learn from this young padewan and go about the world more aware.

lets see per your advice, the OP will call another officer from the same agency to intercede in the original officer's traffic stop. now i am sure that should have a good outcome, especially using the flash card trick on them. REALLY!

Please, please, give us a heads up so we can get the popcorn and beverages together to watch that show!!

as has been stated numerous times, if you are having difficulty you should contact the county sheriff and ask for assistance. while i have not personally verified each state's Constitution and statutes, it is my understanding in NC and the majority of the states i have objectively researched, the county's sheriff represents the highest elected peace officer for the county, trumping, in some cases, the Feds. (sidebar- in WY the Feds must ask the county sheriff permission to institute any type of federal activity.) Therefore, calling the sheriff to intercede and you might discern calmer heads prevail.

as i previously stated, your knowledge is horrible at best and a kindest recommendation i can proffer...you might wish to read the forum posts for awhile absorbing the information from others before someone tells the young padewan (which you have misspelled by the way as the e should be an a) to go sit in the corner and color.

btw, did the young padawan provide a cite as asked for nicely by NC-tarheel and myself.

again, as stated on the forum by more knowledgeable folk than i, if the nice LE wishes to pull you out of the vehicle you try to make exit as graceful as possible and when everything is said and done with the encounter, you present your case to the judicial system.

ipse.

 

[solus]

It may not be required to disclose when on private property. Also, there may not be a requirement to have a CHP in your possession while CCing on private property. A cop's authority is severely limited on private property, contrary to what LE would like to claim.

thanks you are correct in your perception, however it was a spur of the moment image i conjured and didn't refine the parameters

however, you must have owner's permission or be in control of the property to not need your CHP...(tag) :lol:

OC, i am truly discombobulated with your statement, you mean a cop's authority isn't impotent on private property...so confused at this point in my young life...(tough doing sarcasm)

ipse

 

[OC for ME]

thanks you are correct in your perception, however it was a spur of the moment image i conjured and didn't refine the parameters

however, you must have owner's permission or be in control of the property to not need your CHP...(tag) :lol:

OC, i am truly discombobulated with your statement, you mean a cop's authority isn't impotent on private property...so confused at this point in my young life...(tough doing sarcasm)

ipse

A CHP is not required on private property. A owner cannot mandate that you have a CHP. All he can do is kick your butt to the curb if he knows you are armed. The possession of a CHP or not is not a parameter of being armed on private property. Though, was there not a thread here that a member had his CHP checked to retain his welcome in a business.....maybe it, a CHP, does carry some weight.

 

[carolina guy]

A CHP is not required on private property. A owner cannot mandate that you have a CHP. All he can do is kick your butt to the curb if he knows you are armed. The possession of a CHP or not is not a parameter of being armed on private property. Though, was there not a thread here that a member had his CHP checked to retain his welcome in a business.....maybe it, a CHP, does carry some weight.

Not entirely sure in the State of North Carolina... per http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-269.html

§ 14-269. Carrying concealed weapons.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and intentionally to carry concealed about his person any bowie knife, dirk, dagger, slung shot, loaded cane, metallic knuckles, razor, shurikin, stun gun, or other deadly weapon of like kind, except when the person is on the person's own premises.

Looking the rest of the way through the exceptions, I do not see one where the owner of private property can give permission for someone else to carry concealed sans CHP.

That said, the LEO would need RAS to find out that the weapon is concealed...

 

[OC for ME]

Not entirely sure in the State of North Carolina... per http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-269.html

Looking the rest of the way through the exceptions, I do not see one where the owner of private property can give permission for someone else to carry concealed sans CHP.

That said, the LEO would need RAS to find out that the weapon is concealed...

it does seem to indicate that you cannot CC anywhere but on your own property without a CHP. Odd, I could not CC on my parents property, my siblings property, or any other relatives property. Odd indeed. This is a problem the needs fixing. A clear infringement upon a property owners right in the Tarheel state.