How do we implement the 2nd Amendment?

[hadji]

In earlier posts, I explained my understanding of the purpose of the 2nd Amendment.
(Please forgive my English; it is mediocre at best, and only one of six languages that I have known and / or studied.)

My current understanding is that, basically, the second amendment provides a legal means to resist, or even overthrow, our own government, should our own government become too oppressive.

But when is the government "too oppressive"?

The ATF raid on Ares Armor, in National City, California comes to mind.

The business had agreed to turn over the remaining stock of 80% lowers, but the ATF wanted the customer list as well.
The business had a legal Temporary Restraining Order against the ATF to prevent them from executing a raid on the business.

The next day, the ATF raided the business, and during the raid, the ATF destroyed the business' safe, cutting it open with a torch, allegedly to obtain the customer list. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/daniel-zimmerman/breaking-ares-armor-raided-atf/

In my mind, this is a most egregious of government overreaches possible.


In another venue...
at various times recently, legislation has been introduced to severely restrict the possession of commonly owned firearms and / or components.

So, when the "government authority", whomever that may be, shows up at your front door, to forcibly remove the now illegal Ruger 10-22 long gun, and the 50 rounds of .22 caliber ammunition that goes with it, how, exactly do we take advantage of our constitutionally legal right to forcibly resist such overbearing intrusion and confiscation?

Keeping in mind, Rule 15 of this forum, which we have agreed to be bound by as members of this forum:

(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules​

Watching the path and outcomes of relevant court cases over the last 10 years or so, has indicated, to me at least, that the courts do not understand the purpose of the 2nd Amendment either, at least not as I understand it.

With deference to Rule 15, attempting to seek relief in the courts would seem to be an exercise in futility.
The courts are, after all, a third leg of the government.

So, how does this work? Or how is it supposed to work in this country?

hadji

 

[solus]

i have watched from afar while you talked aloud to reconcile, at least in your mind, this country's founding document, which was put together by a group of men who were in positions of power and wealth and disgusted with the governance at the time.

they didn't do a bad job constructing our founding documents, oh those many years ago did they?

there were (read still are) some, like locke, who felt the 2nd provided a relief valve so the citizenry could over throw or remove by force as necessary, those in power of our country.

let's take a step back a moment and compare eras..
newly formed constitionally gov's standing army had the exact same munitions as the citizens ~ ok interesting fight outcome! (firefight didn't work well during the civil war per se)

today's armed forces, LEs, gov agents, etc., have superior munitions, aircraft, ad nauseam over it's citizenry ~ humm, might have give this one to the gov!

ok, but for the sake of argument, let's say your civil sedition and uprising won out...how do the winners follow the rest of constitional mandates to elect new leaders? wait, the crips and bloods don't like your choice of leadership so they institute their own sedition and civil uprising against your new government, darn off go another factional group, ad nauseam.

please do not forget OUR military is peacekeeping around the world...that would cease i am sure...

hadji, to take one small, self serving point out of a document, to talk about sedition to retaliate against one alleged incident of governmental abuse w/o consideration towards the ramifications across the board to the country, it's citizens, and truly the world per se is ridiculous at best.

there have been quite a few discussions out here with good & viable tomes referenced...one is six inches thick, pricy but bought it, and discerned the only thing missing from the book was when the delegates relieved themselves or had sex with....

do your research and investigate the rationale(s) and the nuances of the 200+ year olde english used, especially since you have stated english is a second, or third, or fourth or... language for you!

ipse

 

[hadji]

... let's take a step back a moment and compare eras..

today's armed forces, LEs, gov agents, etc., have superior munitions, aircraft, ad nauseam over it's citizenry ~ humm, might have give this one to the gov!

ok, but for the sake of argument, let's say your civil sedition and uprising won out...how do the winners follow the rest of constitional mandates to elect new leaders? wait, the crips and bloods don't like your choice of leadership so they institute their own sedition and civil uprising against your new government, darn off go another factional group, ad nauseam.

please do not forget OUR military is peacekeeping around the world...that would cease i am sure...

hadji, to take one small, self serving point out of a document, to talk about sedition to retaliate against one alleged incident of governmental abuse w/o consideration towards the ramifications across the board to the country, it's citizens, and truly the world per se is ridiculous at best.

I believe that I am reaching the same conclusion.

The 2nd Amendment, as originally intended, has been rendered impotent.
It seems that to a large degree, so has the 4th Amendment.
The government, more and more, appears to be acting with impunity.

Our only recourse is to pursue remedy in the courts.


The differances between our own government and King John are becoming harder to discern.

hadji

 

[fetch]

How do we implement the 2nd Amendment?

IMHO, the time for implementing the 2nd. Amend. has come and gone.
We the people allowed the gov to create a standing army, this will come back to bite us.
The events leading up to the civil war and the war itself were devastating display of fed power over the states.
1913, our great grand parents should have marched on Washington and burned it to the ground. Bad year for the people.
The continued expansion of gov throughout the 20th cent. has also been devastating. We the people did nothing.
The current role of the military, that is a discussion for another time.

 

[solus]

I believe that I am reaching the same conclusion.

The 2nd Amendment, as originally intended, has been rendered impotent.
It seems that to a large degree, so has the 4th Amendment.
The government, more and more, appears to be acting with impunity.
Our only recourse is to pursue remedy in the courts.
The differances between our own government and King John are becoming harder to discern.

hadji

sorry, you misconstrued my statement... leading you to begin taking liberities to morf other constitutional passages completely out of their intended expectations.

let me be succinct...due to your possible inability to distinguish the tone, tenor, and overal spirit of the founding father's English, coupled with a possible lack of clear understanding of historical presence as the backdrop of the document's written intent, you are and continue to misinterpret the meaning of these documents!

bottom line, do just diligence to learn the nuances, like i am sure you have done with the languages learned, on the overal historical knowledge of the documents not just reading them and applying today's values or your understand into the words.

remember zeppelin 's statement from stairway to heaven..."...'cause sometimes words have two meanings". https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CKn5lydAZ6k

ipse

 

[hadji]

... you are and continue to misinterpret the meaning of these documents!

All of my thought processes, research and logic has been posted.
Where have I gone wrong?

hadji

 

[Freedom1Man]

All of my thought processes, research and logic has been posted.
Where have I gone wrong?

hadji

It is not you, in this case.

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[Citizen]

How do we implement the 2nd Amendment?

Shoot back.

 

[solus]

All of my thought processes, research and logic has been posted.
Where have I gone wrong?

hadji

this is where you have gone wrong ~ hadji quote: Please forgive my English; it is mediocre at best,..unquote.

now go back and reread both of my posts in this thread...

ipse

 

[hadji]

this is where you have gone wrong ~ hadji quote: Please forgive my English; it is mediocre at best,..unquote.

now go back and reread both of my posts in this thread...

ipse

I have re-read both of your posts.
I believe that I have enough of a command of the English language to understand spelling, content, grammar, syntax and definitions for the task at hand.

I believe that I have done due diligence regarding the nuances of the wording, and paying particular attention to the meanings of the words in context, in that period.

I am afraid that I am at a loss to determine how I have, and continue to, misinterpret those documents.
For myself, and others following this thread, you will have to spell it out for me.

You imply that you have a superior skill in English.
Perhaps.... but that is not evident in your posts.

You have made the accusations; please substantiate them.
Which facts that I have cited are in error?
Which conclusions are not logical?

Please quote them, and explain your answers, without alluding to a vague idea that, if only one would seek a more detailed understanding, that one would come to the same conclusions that you do.

The ball is in your court, you have the floor.

hadji

 

[mnrobitaille]

i have watched from afar while you talked aloud to reconcile, at least in your mind, this country's founding document, which was put together by a group of men who were in positions of power and wealth and disgusted with the governance at the time.

they didn't do a bad job constructing our founding documents, oh those many years ago did they?

let's take a step back a moment and compare eras..
newly formed constitionally gov's standing army had the exact same munitions as the citizens ~ ok interesting fight outcome! (firefight didn't work well during the civil war per se)

today's armed forces, LEs, gov agents, etc., have superior munitions, aircraft, ad nauseam over it's citizenry ~ humm, might have give this one to the gov!

ok, but for the sake of argument, let's say your civil sedition and uprising won out...how do the winners follow the rest of constitional mandates to elect new leaders? wait, the crips and bloods don't like your choice of leadership so they institute their own sedition and civil uprising against your new government, darn off go another factional group, ad nauseam.

please do not forget OUR military is peacekeeping around the world...that would cease i am sure...

Today's Law Enforcement, the armament varies by department & division. One of the local Sheriff's Departments here is in the midst of de-militarizing the deputies. For service rifles they are now using Smith & Wesson M&P 15, instead of the M-16/M-4 they used to have, under the previous sheriff. Concerning our armed forces, the armaments they carry is equal to, or slightly superior to those of the enemy combatants.

"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." -- John F. Kennedy

"...The Bill of Rights is a literal and absolute document. The First Amendment doesn't say you have a right to speak out unless the government has a 'compelling interest' in censoring the Internet. The Second Amendment doesn't say you have the right to keep and bear arms until some madman plants a bomb. The Fourth Amendment doesn't say you have the right to be secure from search and seizure unless some FBI agent thinks you fit the profile of a terrorist. The government has no right to interfere with any of these freedoms under any circumstances."
-- Harry Browne, 1996 USA presidential candidate, Libertarian Party

Technically, Washington State follows British legal tradition, which states that anything that is not proscribed as unlawful is lawful.

The best way I've found to implement the 2nd Amendment on a regular basis is to be aware of all rules/regulations regarding where you are allowed to carry.

A right not exercised is a right lost.

 

[solus]

hadji, i can truly empathize with your frustration, however...

YOU made the statement about YOUR grasp of the English laguage is mediocre, not I!

congradulations on YOU now saying you have 'enough' command of TODAYS presentation of the language's sytax, ad nauseam!

YOU stated do not understand the meaning of a singular phrase from a document written an era ago and YOU are translating & and interpretating that phrase using your medicore grasp of TODAY'S English which is not the English context the document is written in. for example, gay meant gaiety in that era, not homosexual as it does now in our day and age.

you have stated you read & reread my two posts, i'm glad you read the words, but it appears you didn't understand the meaning of them. YOU were advised to go research the historical era against the founding father's compilation of the document.

a comparison would similar to you stating the civil war was strictly about slavery and Lincoln's Gettysburg address was about ending the war~Lincoln wasn't even the featured keynote speaker and was there to dedicate the national cemetery.

his < five minute speech was considered ho hum at the time, especially after the audience listened to the two hour speech by the key speaker.

oh today, hundreds of thousands of American's school children have memorized it...why? i shant take you down that path...

yes, hadji you read & reread, but you did not, for reasons only known to you, wish to comprehend what advice you were provided. the telling is in your misinterpretation of my post(s).

and without so much as a by-your-leave

ipse

added...our society cannot even agree on what the words mean in our religious tomes!

 

[hadji]

Taking this off line...
solus, please see my PM.

 

[Tacitus42]

hadji, i can truly empathize with your frustration, however...

YOU made the statement about YOUR grasp of the English laguage is mediocre, not I!

congradulations on YOU now saying you have 'enough' command of TODAYS presentation of the language's sytax, ad nauseam!

YOU stated do not understand the meaning of a singular phrase from a document written an era ago and YOU are translating & and interpretating that phrase using your medicore grasp of TODAY'S English which is not the English context the document is written in. for example, gay meant gaiety in that era, not homosexual as it does now in our day and age.

you have stated you read & reread my two posts, i'm glad you read the words, but it appears you didn't understand the meaning of them. YOU were advised to go research the historical era against the founding father's compilation of the document.

a comparison would similar to you stating the civil war was strictly about slavery and Lincoln's Gettysburg address was about ending the war~Lincoln wasn't even the featured keynote speaker and was there to dedicate the national cemetery.

his < five minute speech was considered ho hum at the time, especially after the audience listened to the two hour speech by the key speaker.

oh today, hundreds of thousands of American's school children have memorized it...why? i shant take you down that path...

yes, hadji you read & reread, but you did not, for reasons only known to you, wish to comprehend what advice you were provided. the telling is in your misinterpretation of my post(s).

and without so much as a by-your-leave

ipse

added...our society cannot even agree on what the words mean in our religious tomes!

Bore

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[solus]

Taking this off line...
solus, please see my PM.

forgot to state our conversation has been taken off line and ideas are being intelligently exchanged and adult conversations ensuing.

ipse

 

[solus]

Bore

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

such a conversationalist aren't you...

your contributions are noted by all...

ipse

 

[Citizen]

EXACTLY! I predict what is going to happen is that ...the US Federal government is going to go the way of the USSR. It will collapse under it's own weight of debt and regulations.

+1

But, not without dragging down the rest of the world economy in a desperate attempt to avoid being rightfully blamed.

 

[fetch]

EXACTLY! I predict what is going to happen is that sometime in the next 100 years the US Federal government is going to go the way of the USSR. It will collapse under it's own weight of debt and regulations. We will become the States of the American Union or something like that - for those states remaining that wish to band together and cooperate. California, Oregon and Washington will probably become their own country with completely open borders - especially the southern border.

NavyLCDR, Ether it is heavy sarcasm, or I don't think you have any comprehension of what I wrote.

hadji and solus went on this long soap box but, direction of their thoughts are pointless.

Y'all just don't get it.

 

[OC for ME]

+1

But, not without dragging down the rest of the world economy in a desperate attempt to avoid being rightfully blamed.

So little faith. The states...most of them anyway, are restoring liberty. Look to Illinois. Two years ago CC was not an opition anywhere in the state.

 

[OC for ME]

You do understand that Illinois only did that to comply with a Federal court ruling that mandated that they do it? If the Illinois state government was not forced by the Federal court to enact government permission allowed conceal carry, they never would have.

I understand. Here on OCDO we do not advocate violating the law. We either restore liberty (gun rights) via the legislative process or through the courts. The end result is the same...except for Chicago it seems.