"God Given"

[Anonymouse]

When I get into an argument with an atheist, it is because he has blinders on. I've been in many a discussion with an open-minded atheist.

I firmly believe that militant atheists, the kind who argue about it and make legal issues about it, actually believe in God, or they wouldn't fight so hard against something they claim does not exist. I think they are just trying to deny the sovereignty of God the only way they know how, by denying His existence.


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It seems to me that believers on either side that are secure in their belief don't argue about it in the first place.

Edit: militant atheists do remind me of those Westboro creeps though.

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[Big Gay Al]

It seems to me that believers on either side that are secure in their belief don't argue about it in the first place.

Edit: militant atheists do remind me of those Westboro creeps though.

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I dunno, when is the last time you saw atheists picketing a military funeral?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I dunno, when is the last time you saw atheists picketing a military funeral?

When was the last time you saw WBC making a giant stink out of a cross meant as a memorial to america's war dead out in the middle of the desert?

I seem to recall a few years ago at the Washington State Capitol in Olympia they had a nativity scene on display for many years, and then the Jews asked if they could have a menora on the capitol grounds, and the state said "yes" so the menora goes up at the capitol, then a group of atheists show up and put up a display that mocks jews and christians, then a huge legal battle unfolds...

And in Santa Monica the city won't allow another nativity (something they've done for years and were even known for) because agitators showed up to harass the city.

Don't act like you're all innocent (if you are an atheist) the extremes of your belief are every bit as bad as the extremes of christianity. and before you bring up the crusades or the catholic purges of Buddhists in Vietnam, lets remind you that the USSR that killed over 20 million people was a society that forced atheism on everyone and banned the church for a number of years.

 

[Anonymouse]

I said "militant" atheists.

Extremists of any belief are annoying.


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[Citizen]

(sigh)

I guess it was inevitable that an argument started over athiests and believers.

Lets go back to the part about believers being better in government since they believe something higher than themselves and may feel some restraint/animals are more comfortable to kill and deny rights, etc.

I think this argument will fall short on the ears of anyone you are trying to persuade if he knows much history.

I can remember news reports of bloody strife in India between Hindu factions, Sikhs vs (I forget the name for the other faction).

Muslim vs Muslim. Remember when it was Shiite vs somebody else in Iraq?

Mary Tudor, a strong Catholic, about as fervent believer as you can get, was quite content to give Protestants an early taste of Hell by burning them at the stake. About 300 of them in her short time as Queen of England.

Some of our Christian ancestors were more than happy to slaughter native Americans.

Some current Muslim believers in government seem to like the idea of killing Christians and Jews.


I think the problem is a failure to respect his fellows arising from a desire to gain or maintain power. The mechanism seems to be making the other guy "not one of us". Set him apart and make him out to be an enemy of some sort, whip up some fear of "those people over there."

 

[Jakeus314]

Calling people blind is a cop-out.

I don't believe in god because I've found no significant evidence of god, however I have just as little evidence for the claim that no god exists. I would prefer the existence of a god, but I'm NOT willing to "just have faith" or "choose to believe" just because I want there to be a god.

There are idiot atheists just as there are idiot theists. Please do not tell me I haven't looked hard enough or read enough or that I'm blind or arrogant etc. NOBODY has all the answers.

FYI there is large disagreement on the meaning of the word atheist.
Dictionary atheist: the belief that there is no god
Common atheist: do not accept the claim that god exists
The reason I say this is because many people who claim to be atheist really do not claim there isn't a god. They wouldn't claim "no god" because they feel that is just about as absurd as claiming there is a god. Many people would claim that this is agnostic, but there is mild disagreement on the meaning of that word too.

Search for "The Atheist Experience" on google or YouTube. There are over 700 hour long episodes of a tv/radio call-in show in Austin, TX. If you give them honest and thoughtful consideration you may start to see why atheists are not so evil inside.

I refrain from doing bad things because I want to be good.

-jakeus

 

[Jakeus314]

(sigh)

I guess it was inevitable that an argument started over athiests and believers.

Yes... I'm just glad the discussion started so well.


-jakeus

 

[MAC702]

...does anyone really think our rights are "god" given?

Everyone has their own definition of "god" anyway. The word itself just means "mighty one."

A lot of people elevate their national patriotism above their religion's tenets, as well. They are choosing which god they are serving at different times for different reasons.

So with a lower-case "g", the statement is very correct. Money, government, food, sex, power, etc have all been gods to people.

 

[Citizen]

A republic democracy would be the work of Satan not God. God teaches obedience and control.

If rights are God given why are there no mentions of rights like we speak in the bible?

Freedom from slavery is a human concept, not a God concept.

Rights were created by men who were tired of being controlled. These men fought hard and gifted you rights. They erode over time.

Therefore rights are derived from Satan.

Anyways, I still say God given even though I don't believe in God. If you truly believe in God and the bible you should not claim rights in his name. That's a sin and contrary to what he teaches.

http://www.albatrus.org/english/living/kingdom/kingdom_vs_democracy.htm

This is not particularly a support for Christian or Jewish beliefs or a support for the existence of a God. Take it more as an invitation to look deeper.

There is a great big, honkin', massive mention of rights in the Bible: "Do unto others..." This is nothing less than a sweeping comment on rights. Moreover, it proceeds from the idea that readers already have some concept of rights. It is saying "respect the other guy's rights.)

There is another. The Ten Commandments. Except for those addressing God himself--graven images, keeping the Sabbath, no other Gods before Me--they are about rights. Thou Shalt Not Kill (respect the other guys right to life). Thou Shalt Not Steal (respect the other guy's right to property). Etc. They're just written backwards; they don't say "you have the right to not be killed."

You just have to look a little deeper; its not quite as easy as turning to the enumerated list.

In fact, it would be surprising for the scriptures of a religion not to contain rights. If you think about it, what is a religion trying to do? I'm not asking how its priests are misusing it to maintain control. I am asking what is one of the overall thrusts of most of the major religions--bring social harmony, give its adherents some rules to live by, give its adherents some explanation of their relationship between themselves and the universe. Unless the scriptures are written by someone intent on suppressing the adherents, the writer can't help but address rights. Spiritual advancement necessarily involves learning by degrees one's own nature and the nature of others. And, you can't obtain either of those without developing a respect for oneself and others. Which is just another way of saying developing respect for one's own rights and the rights of others. A little evidence in this direction is the Bhuddist monk who spends ten years in meditation. You'll never find one who goes around refusing to recognize the rights of others.

If I were an alien explorer who discovered earth on Tuesday and wanted a fast estimation of the state of things on earth, the first thing I would do is grab all the religious scripture I could find and scan it for rights. How many are mentioned? Which ones are mentioned? Which are omitted? And so forth.

 

[Anonymouse]

The whole "rights" issue in the bible is settled by this...

Exodus 21:1-4 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."

Breeding people for servitude. Classy. And you wonder why the idea of overly religious people in power scares people.

Religion is not about rights. Its about laws and control. Like controlling marriage and reproductive rights.

Any deeper study of said religion and its history and followers, not just reading its text will reveal this fact...



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[Citizen]

The whole "rights" issue in the bible is settled by this...



Breeding people for servitude.

Religion is not about rights. Its about laws and control.

Any deeper study of said religion and its history and followers, not just reading its text will reveal this fact...

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I agree that one can find anti-rights scripture in most religions. Four millenia removed, how can we tell whether the writer of the scripture intended to suppress someone, or whether he was sensitive to the idea that if he wanted to gain acceptance, he couldn't violate the existing status quo but so much?

For example, pretend you are Zeus, and you take it into your head to help out your creations because they're running around in fur pants killing each other and having a bad time of it? Do you really think you will succeed if you come out with a book that includes "if you confess your sins you will experience relief and lose the impulse to hypercritize your friends and family because you won't have to tear them down in order to reduce the gravity of your transgressions against them"? Or, are you going to aim for something a little more understandable for relatively primitive people: "Thou shalt not kill! Thou shalt not..." And add a few lightning bolts to get their attention?

Whether one concludes scriptures are divinely inspired, or just a bunch of philosophically inclined men trying their best to get something beneficial down on paper, or a mix of both, the gradual approach works as a possible explanation.

Separately, I notice the example given in the post I quoted does not reveal whether the rule on servants was an improvement. Was it intended to limit servitude from a previous custom of life-long servitude? Aimed at Hebrew servants, was it intended as a sort of "Hey, lets have a little compassion, for pete's sake; he's one of you."? Was its aim to achieve some consistency--the whole God's children thing? "You can't permanently enslave God's own children, you knuckleheads." Was that scripture an increase in recognition of rights, a maintaining of the status quo, or step backwards? (rhetorical question)

I am convinced from personal observation that the overall thrust of holy scriptures--not just Christian--is in the direction of improving the situation.

And, even if a person disagrees with a conclusion that sweeping, there is little denying the usefulness of the Christian and Bhuddist Golden Rule as persuasion. (Bhudda promoted a version of the Golden Rule.)

 

[Big Gay Al]

When was the last time you saw WBC making a giant stink out of a cross meant as a memorial to america's war dead out in the middle of the desert?

I seem to recall a few years ago at the Washington State Capitol in Olympia they had a nativity scene on display for many years, and then the Jews asked if they could have a menora on the capitol grounds, and the state said "yes" so the menora goes up at the capitol, then a group of atheists show up and put up a display that mocks jews and christians, then a huge legal battle unfolds...

And in Santa Monica the city won't allow another nativity (something they've done for years and were even known for) because agitators showed up to harass the city.

Don't act like you're all innocent (if you are an atheist) the extremes of your belief are every bit as bad as the extremes of christianity. and before you bring up the crusades or the catholic purges of Buddhists in Vietnam, lets remind you that the USSR that killed over 20 million people was a society that forced atheism on everyone and banned the church for a number of years.

If I were you, I'd quit jumping to conclusions about people on this list, at least until you get to know them. My point was that as bad as atheists may be, I've never seen any of them (militant or otherwise) picketing the funeral of a dead military service member.

I don't need a lesson on what militant atheists actually get around to doing. I'm well aware.

 

[eye95]

The clear implication of your post was that some fanatic Christian group was worse than fanatic atheists because the fanatic Christians protested at funerals, but fanatic atheists did not. The clear implication of the reply was that they are both despicable because acts by the fanatic atheists could be found that the fanatic Christians did not do.

He has a point. Your reply immediately above seems to be trying to save a failing argument.


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<o>

 

[Ca Patriot]

. My point was that as bad as atheists may be, I've never seen any of them (militant or otherwise) picketing the funeral of a dead military service member.

I don't need a lesson on what militant atheists actually get around to doing. I'm well aware.

If you are refering to the Westboro Baptist Church you should know that they are NOT religious and they are NOT Christians. They are a family of lawyers who fake religious beliefs and make highly strategic protests with the intent to sue those who suppress their 1A rights in order to win monetary lawsuits.

 

[Anonymouse]

If you are refering to the Westboro Baptist Church you should know that they are NOT religious and they are NOT Christians. They are a family of lawyers who fake religious beliefs and make highly strategic protests with the intent to sue those who suppress their 1A rights in order to win monetary lawsuits.

The Muslims say the same about Muslim terrorists...

And the Mormons say the same of the ones like Warren Jeffs?

Unfortunately they ARE.

What does the bible say? All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god... so technically the good christian is the same as the bad and you shouldn't even be judging them.

In any case, its the extremists that ruin it for everyone. There ate plenty of religious people that I would support.

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[Citizen]

SNIP There ate plenty of religious people that I would support.

I never ate religious people. Recipes are too hard to come by.

 

[david.ross]

I never ate religious people. Recipes are too hard to come by.

I hear roasted vegan is rather tasty since they only eat berries and fruit.

 

[eye95]

The Muslims say the same about Muslim terrorists...

And the Mormons say the same of the ones like Warren Jeffs?

Unfortunately they ARE.

What does the bible say? All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god... so technically the good christian is the same as the bad and you shouldn't even be judging them.

In any case, its the extremists that ruin it for everyone. There ate plenty of religious people that I would support.

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The Bible warns us against judging others. It requires us to judge actions. The actions of the WBC are unchristian. I will not speak to any of the individuals in that church, but the church itself and what it does are unchristian. It is quite possible that some of the members are indeed Christians who have been caught up in a cult.


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<o>

 

[Freedom1Man]

God gives you life. Another man can take that gift away, right? It is wrong, but he can do it. God endows you with rights, by the very act of creating you. Another man (or other men in the form of government) can take them away, right? It may be wrong, but he or they can do it.


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<o>

:uhoh: We are starting to agree on things. I think the end of the world is closer than I believed.

 

[Freedom1Man]

Calling people blind is a cop-out.

I don't believe in god because I've found no significant evidence of god, however I have just as little evidence for the claim that no god exists. I would prefer the existence of a god, but I'm NOT willing to "just have faith" or "choose to believe" just because I want there to be a god.

There are idiot atheists just as there are idiot theists. Please do not tell me I haven't looked hard enough or read enough or that I'm blind or arrogant etc. NOBODY has all the answers.

FYI there is large disagreement on the meaning of the word atheist.
Dictionary atheist: the belief that there is no god
Common atheist: do not accept the claim that god exists
The reason I say this is because many people who claim to be atheist really do not claim there isn't a god. They wouldn't claim "no god" because they feel that is just about as absurd as claiming there is a god. Many people would claim that this is agnostic, but there is mild disagreement on the meaning of that word too.

Search for "The Atheist Experience" on google or YouTube. There are over 700 hour long episodes of a tv/radio call-in show in Austin, TX. If you give them honest and thoughtful consideration you may start to see why atheists are not so evil inside.

I refrain from doing bad things because I want to be good.

-jakeus

Have you seen this video then?

[video=youtube_share;guXirzknYYE]http://youtu.be/guXirzknYYE[/video]

I like to believe that if your belief in a higher power is all the keeps you from doing bad things then you're not a good person to begin with.