"God Given"

[Anonymouse]

I think he was trying to say that just because a person becomes handicapped from injury and becomes himself less able to distinguish right and wrong, does not mean right and wrong change. Just that person's ability to sort out the question on whichever subject.

Perhaps. Or perhaps they are unable to distinguish between what people say is right or wrong.

Remember it is my contention that this concept doesn't even exist outside our existence.

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[Citizen]

I'm not sure what y'all (Mouse and Jetson) are debating.

It seems like 'Mouse is saying that all morals are man-made, conceived by man. And, that Jetson is saying there is a divine basis for morals. But since those two positions are not mutually exclusive, I don't understand what or why y'all are debating.

If I understand Jetson, what he's aiming at is that morals arise from a creator(s) and His/their design.

But, if I understand 'Mouse, his position that morals are man-made does not exclude a divine source. I am thinkgin that any understanding by man of morals must necessarily be man-made whether the morals originate divinely or not.

So, unless y'all are basically debating god vs no god, I'm not sure what you all are saying.

Can one of y'all chime in and let me know.

 

[georg jetson]

My original post was to Sharkey about brain injury. I pointed out that maybe Anonymouse took my post out of context. The next thing I know we're doing the math on the odds of God vs no God... friendly enough discussion. I don't think we're to far off topic to violate any rules though.

You're saying the "understanding" of morals is man made? Well, it is men that are either understanding or not so... I guess that could go without saying.

 

[Citizen]

My original post was to Sharkey about brain injury. I pointed out that maybe Anonymouse took my post out of context. The next thing I know we're doing the math on the odds of God vs no God... friendly enough discussion. I don't think we're to far off topic to violate any rules though.

You're saying the "understanding" of morals is man made? Well, it is men that are either understanding or not so... I guess that could go without saying.

At least as far as I think I understand your posts. And, yeah. I guess too that it kinda goes without saying.

Another concern is that 'Mouse's comments aren't really a rebuttal. He would do just as well, literally, to just say there is no divine source for morals and be done with it. If I understand him, that is.

But, that is him.


If I understand you, you are saying (paraphrase) that a creator provides the morals. As revealed in holy scripture and reasonable inferences derived therefrom? Or, more in the direction of as revealed in the laws of nature? Please note that I do like the idea of raising morals, ethics, and so forth above the current musings of men. Putting them above men and giving them an objective source helps cut down on the ability of minimizations to stick.

 

[georg jetson]

At least as far as I think I understand your posts. And, yeah. I guess too that it kinda goes without saying.

Another concern is that 'Mouse's comments aren't really a rebuttal. He would do just as well, literally, to just say there is no divine source for morals and be done with it. If I understand him, that is.

But, that is him.

I'll let him respond to this.

If I understand you, you are saying (paraphrase) that a creator provides the morals.

Well, he's created everything so... yes. Let me be more specific. If there is a Creator then has made the law. He has decided that hydrogen and oxygen combine to make water. He has also decided what is right and wrong.

As revealed in holy scripture and reasonable inferences derived therefrom?

Maybe

Or, more in the direction of as revealed in the laws of nature?

Probably

Please note that I do like the idea of raising morals, ethics, and so forth above the current musings of men. Putting them above men and giving them an objective source helps cut down on the ability of minimizations to stick.

Noted.

 

[Anonymouse]

But, if I understand 'Mouse, his position that morals are man-made does not exclude a divine source. I am thinkgin that any understanding by man of morals must necessarily be man-made whether the morals originate divinely or not.

Pretty much this. Even if there is a divine creator anything we attributed to him, whether it be morals or god-given rights, is still just a man-made idea.

All these ideas originate with us. We then attribute them to god to give them weight. Any books on the subject such as the Bible and Qur'an is were written by man.

We've yet to actually hear this so called god weigh in on the matter. I suspect we never will.

I won't go so far as to say there is no divine though. I don't know that and therefore don't believe that. I have to take the stance that there could be.

So I guess I am saying that regardless of the presence of a creator or not these ideas are ours.


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[Freedom1Man]

Pretty much this. Even if there is a divine creator anything we attributed to him, whether it be morals or god-given rights, is still just a man-made idea.

All these ideas originate with us. We then attribute them to god to give them weight. Any books on the subject such as the Bible and Qur'an is were written by man.

We've yet to actually hear this so called god weigh in on the matter. I suspect we never will.

I won't go so far as to say there is no divine though. I don't know that and therefore don't believe that. I have to take the stance that there could be.

So I guess I am saying that regardless of the presence of a creator or not these ideas are ours.


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I thought I had addressed existentialism already.

As for being man made I believe you are partly correct. God is law in the christian teachings. So whether God is a man made law or an observed law it does make a difference. A God law includes the not charging of and/or paying of usury. That is why the Jesus story talked about whooping the money changers. The not charging of usury of your fellow Christians could be argued as a natural law.
The whole not letting outsiders into do business seems like a natural law. I could give examples but they would belong on another thread and would not be PC at all.
The idea of not committing murder seems like a natural law. It does not forbid killing though, just murder.

There are other things it covers also.

"The Lord's Prayer" seems like it might really be covering natural law and physics. "On earth as it is in heaven," since another name for 'space' is a the heaven(s) and heaven is generally shown to be 'up'. The line could mean that on earth or in space the laws of physics are the same.
Hell, the opening line could be talking about space aliens.