sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
Oh of course. What changes things is the discussion is the awareness. The right will never be recognized by the state if the people don't at least vocalize the right.
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Go camping is hazardous to your health
- Thread starter davidmcbeth
- Start date
Oh of course. What changes things is the discussion is the awareness. The right will never be recognized by the state if the people don't at least vocalize the right.
OC for ME
Regular Member
Dario
Regular Member
Mind if I interject the idea of martyrdom? All movements have them and IMO even though not intentional, I consider James Boyd and Kelly Thomas martyrs for freedom. Without martyrs a cause is just hot air.
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
Dario
Regular Member
For starters:
Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.
Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.
Luke was hanged by idolatrous priests on an olive tree in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.
John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.
Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ was crucified.
James the Just, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Jesus went to during his Temptation.
James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.
Bartholomew, also know as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed to our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia when he was flayed to death by a whip.
Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it." He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.
Thomas was stabbed with a spear (lance) in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent.
Jude, the brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.
Matthias, the apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.
Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, wrote the Epistle of Barnabas. He preached throughout Italy and Cyprus. Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.
Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero in Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of the New Testament.
Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.
Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.
Luke was hanged by idolatrous priests on an olive tree in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.
John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.
Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ was crucified.
James the Just, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Jesus went to during his Temptation.
James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.
Bartholomew, also know as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed to our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia when he was flayed to death by a whip.
Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it." He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.
Thomas was stabbed with a spear (lance) in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent.
Jude, the brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.
Matthias, the apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.
Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, wrote the Epistle of Barnabas. He preached throughout Italy and Cyprus. Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.
Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero in Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of the New Testament.
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
Ah. So what you really meant to say was, "a cause doesn't have sufficiently religious overtones to satisfy me without a martyr."
Got it. :lol:
Got it. :lol:
Dario
Regular Member
And where does Thomas Jefferson mention religion? That was not what I meant to say at all. Why the hostility?
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marshaul
Campaign Veteran
OK, I'll try to explain my objection without "hostility".
Jefferson himself doesn't mention religion, but his allusion to "martyrdom" seems quite a bit more symbolic than yours. "Every spirit should be ready to devote itself to martyrdom" isn't quite the same as suggesting that a cause needs martyrs to succeed.
That is to say, being willing to die for a cause is not the same thing as actually dying for a cause. I personally would opine that any strategy which depends on my death is a failing strategy. You're free to "martyr" yourself for whatever you like, of course. (Whether the world will differentiate that from "suicide by cop" is another question entirely.)
The rest of your post was indeed a slew of references of religious character and dubious historical accuracy. I suppose I am in some sense "hostile" to that, as I don't believe it furthers the discussion. It is, at best, divisive (as you've discovered, although you're welcome to blame that on me). Of course, I have no issue with whatever beliefs you (or anyone else) might choose to harbor, but it's every bit as much my right to become annoyed when they interject themselves into otherwise productive conversation.
OC for ME
Regular Member
Feel as you please, nobody here (taking liberties at this time) is interested in your feelings. We are, however, interested in your opinions and as such we are interested in countering any opinion that is not relevant to the OP.
Martyrdom requires a martyr. Are James Boyd and Kelly Thomas martyrs for the 2A? Nope. Are they martyrs for camping or homelessness? Nope. Are they martyrs for mental health issues? Nope. Are they martyrs for cop brutality? Maybe.
Sine we have no idea what they believed they do not deserve the title of martyr in my view. They were not killed for their beliefs, they were killed for their actions, perceived actions, or lack thereof.
I yield back the liberties taken.
Dario
Regular Member
Points taken. And I did edit out the part about my feelings before I read your post OC 
:lol:
:lol:
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
Ah, yes. Good point. Of course, if I wasn't interested in an opinion, I certainly wouldn't consider it enough to respond to it.
Feelings, on the other hand… Well, I always tell folks, OCDO is one of those "if you can't handle the heat…" kind places. :lol:
davidmcbeth
Banned
Points taken. And I did edit out the part about my feelings before I read your post OC
I feel sad that you edited....
Yard Sale
Regular Member
They don't let people like us on juries.
JoeSparky
Centurion
Where have I heard the saying of "A Right unexercised is a right lost"?
FattyKrack
Regular Member
It does appear this other shooting -may- have been justified. Sister says only a cell phone, cops say gun and three shots fired..
since9
Campaign Veteran
I can't comment on the second incident, but I viewed the unedited version of the shooting of the camper several times. Even if he was camping in an illegal spot, these incidents are usually handled by a calm, mild-mannered park ranger, not a S.W.A.T. team. I suspect someone inadvertently fired live rounds while the others were pelting him with bean bags and other non-lethal rounds.
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
Which kind of people are those?
I, for one, have no problem enforcing any laws.
It hardly seems relevant that I believe laws which are passed contrary to enumerated (aw heck... unenumerated, too) right don't actually exist (except on paper, where they have no weight).
And why should I bring that up? Government isn't in the business of infringing right, is it? Hardly seems relevant.
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sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
Which kind of people are those?
I, for one, have no problem enforcing any laws.
It hardly seems relevant that I believe laws which are passed contrary to enumerated (aw heck... unenumerated, too) right don't actually exist (except on paper, where they have no weight).
And why should I bring that up? Government isn't in the business of infringing right, is it? Hardly seems relevant.
+1
Good news. The 2 officers that murdered this man are actually being charged with MURDER.
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/time-apd-cops-charged-murder-killing/
"According to KRQE, prosecutors will charge officer Perez and now former detective Sandy, who was allowed to retire from the department eight months after the shooting, by “criminal information.”
Filing charges by “criminal information” is common in New Mexico but not for police. Charges by information allows prosecutors to use a process, authorized under New Mexico law, to charge a suspect without obtaining an indictment from a secret grand jury; a strategical move, seeing as it’s nearly impossible to obtain an indictment of a police officer using a grand jury.
District Attorney Kari Brandenburg’s filing will charge Sandy and Perez with open counts of murder. That means a trial jury could consider a range of charges from voluntary manslaughter, which carries a maximum sentence of six years in prison, to first-degree murder, which carries a potential life sentence, according to KRQE.
This move will likely trigger a preliminary hearing at which Sandy and Perez will be able to contest the charges. The prosecutors will present evidence at the hearing and unlike grand juries, will be available to the public."
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/time-apd-cops-charged-murder-killing/
"According to KRQE, prosecutors will charge officer Perez and now former detective Sandy, who was allowed to retire from the department eight months after the shooting, by “criminal information.”
Filing charges by “criminal information” is common in New Mexico but not for police. Charges by information allows prosecutors to use a process, authorized under New Mexico law, to charge a suspect without obtaining an indictment from a secret grand jury; a strategical move, seeing as it’s nearly impossible to obtain an indictment of a police officer using a grand jury.
District Attorney Kari Brandenburg’s filing will charge Sandy and Perez with open counts of murder. That means a trial jury could consider a range of charges from voluntary manslaughter, which carries a maximum sentence of six years in prison, to first-degree murder, which carries a potential life sentence, according to KRQE.
This move will likely trigger a preliminary hearing at which Sandy and Perez will be able to contest the charges. The prosecutors will present evidence at the hearing and unlike grand juries, will be available to the public."
since9
Campaign Veteran
Sad to see two law enforcement officers go down. These two, however, earned it.