10 JAN 16 - OpenCarry.org Press Release - Texas Licensed Open Carry is Not Enough!

[Mike]

OpenCarry.org

A national gun rights community with over 39,000 registered members focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.

**********************************
For Immediate Release – January 10, 2016
**********************************

OpenCarry.org Congratulates Texas for Legalizing the Open Carry of Properly Holstered Handguns
---
But Licensed Open Carry is Not Enough!
---
Gun Owners Will Boycott and Selectively Picket Businesses which do not Respect the Right to Choose Open or Concealed Carry
---
And Kevin Laurence, the executive director of the Texas Municipal Police Association, needs to read the US Supreme Court's opinion in Delaware v. Prouse (1979) (holding that the police may not seize citizens just to check for licenses). ---

. . .

See full press release at attachment.

 

[Grapeshot]

Without a doubt, there is more work to be done. Texans deserve more.

 

[davidmcbeth]

A link to the deleware v. prouse SCOTUS decision would be nice.

 

[Grapeshot]

A link to the deleware v. prouse SCOTUS decision would be nice.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/440/648

 

[BB62]

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/440/648

I understand the court's ruling as it applies to driving a car (and of course nevermind sobriety "checkpoints" - grrr), but in the case of driving a car, the officer is supposed to see something illegal before stopping an individual.

In the case of licensed OC, doesn't the officer see something illegal, except for the fact that the person may possess a CHL - therefore allowing a stop?

I *may* see the difference, but I don't trust a court or a jury to make the necessary distinction.

 

[hovercat]

Here in TX, IMO, it is time to rest on our laurels for a bit. We won a partial victory, now we need to solidify our support.
The support we need comes from people who do not see a reason for open carry. Most do not see a need for CC, but it does not bother them either way. The folks who will join any protest just because it sounds fun will never join our cause. The libs will never join us. We need the businessman, truck driver, the single mom who worries about walking to her car after work. The only way we will win them over is with quiet, unobtrusive reasoning. Or if they get mugged.

The TX Legislature does not meet this year anyway. The people we need are the type that will let you do what you want, just do not shove it in their face. Two guys holding hands walking down the street and they will shake their heads a bit. A gay pride parade every weekend down Main Street, and they will pour money, time and sweat into restricting it. Let open carry become normal and accepted first. Small steps, as long as we keep going in the right direction.

 

[bushwacker]

Here in TX, IMO, it is time to rest on our laurels for a bit. We won a partial victory, now we need to solidify our support.
The support we need comes from people who do not see a reason for open carry. Most do not see a need for CC, but it does not bother them either way. The folks who will join any protest just because it sounds fun will never join our cause. The libs will never join us. We need the businessman, truck driver, the single mom who worries about walking to her car after work. The only way we will win them over is with quiet, unobtrusive reasoning. Or if they get mugged.

The TX Legislature does not meet this year anyway. The people we need are the type that will let you do what you want, just do not shove it in their face. Two guys holding hands walking down the street and they will shake their heads a bit. A gay pride parade every weekend down Main Street, and they will pour money, time and sweat into restricting it. Let open carry become normal and accepted first. Small steps, as long as we keep going in the right direction.

well here is your businessman /truck driver I drive a truck and for years I have encouraging and educating truckers about the truth of trucks and guns ,the problem is that most company drivers can't carry because of company rules ,so the drivers that I have been able to reach are mostly owner/ops and their drivers . most of the time I get a crowd gathered when they see me getting out of the trk o-carrying and when one person comes up asking then others quickly follow. so that shows a large interest amongst the trucking community. you are on a right track in your thoughts of reaching out to them . now as for texas goes , I have been in several walmarts , waffle houses ( hit wh on weekends at breakfast ,busy time) q t's and except for the first Walmart (minor issus) has been no issues however I have yet seen another o carrier.

 

[Grapeshot]

well here is your businessman /truck driver I drive a truck and for years I have encouraging and educating truckers about the truth of trucks and guns ,the problem is that most company drivers can't carry because of company rules ,so the drivers that I have been able to reach are mostly owner/ops and their drivers . most of the time I get a crowd gathered when they see me getting out of the trk o-carrying and when one person comes up asking then others quickly follow. so that shows a large interest amongst the trucking community. you are on a right track in your thoughts of reaching out to them . now as for texas goes , I have been in several walmarts , waffle houses ( hit wh on weekends at breakfast ,busy time) q t's and except for the first Walmart (minor issus) has been no issues however I have yet seen another o carrier.

Waffle House has available all the basic food groups = grease, sugar, and grits. Adding the humor of their vendor/employee (my interpretation) no guns sign increases the possibilities exponentially.

 

[KBCraig]

I understand the court's ruling as it applies to driving a car (and of course nevermind sobriety "checkpoints" - grrr), but in the case of driving a car, the officer is supposed to see something illegal before stopping an individual.

In the case of licensed OC, doesn't the officer see something illegal, except for the fact that the person may possess a CHL - therefore allowing a stop?

I *may* see the difference, but I don't trust a court or a jury to make the necessary distinction.

In the case of driving a car, doesn't the officer see something illegal, except for the fact that the person may possess a driver license?

 

[BB62]

In the case of driving a car, doesn't the officer see something illegal, except for the fact that the person may possess a driver license?

Exactly my point.

 

[SA-TX]

Agreed!

Here in TX, IMO, it is time to rest on our laurels for a bit. We won a partial victory, now we need to solidify our support.
The support we need comes from people who do not see a reason for open carry. Most do not see a need for CC, but it does not bother them either way. The folks who will join any protest just because it sounds fun will never join our cause. The libs will never join us. We need the businessman, truck driver, the single mom who worries about walking to her car after work. The only way we will win them over is with quiet, unobtrusive reasoning. Or if they get mugged.

The TX Legislature does not meet this year anyway. The people we need are the type that will let you do what you want, just do not shove it in their face. Two guys holding hands walking down the street and they will shake their heads a bit. A gay pride parade every weekend down Main Street, and they will pour money, time and sweat into restricting it. Let open carry become normal and accepted first. Small steps, as long as we keep going in the right direction.

Agreed. We need to build support by showing that OC can be just another form of carry as folks go about their everyday business. We don't need drama or news cameras. Quiet, one-on-one persuasion is the key.

SA-TX

 

[SA-TX]

Picketing Businessethat Post 30.07

OpenCarry.org

A national gun rights community with over 39,000 registered members focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.

**********************************
For Immediate Release – January 10, 2016
**********************************

OpenCarry.org Congratulates Texas for Legalizing the Open Carry of Properly Holstered Handguns
---
But Licensed Open Carry is Not Enough!
---
Gun Owners Will Boycott and Selectively Picket Businesses which do not Respect the Right to Choose Open or Concealed Carry
---
And Kevin Laurence, the executive director of the Texas Municipal Police Association, needs to read the US Supreme Court's opinion in Delaware v. Prouse (1979) (holding that the police may not seize citizens just to check for licenses). ---

. . .

See full press release at attachment.

Mike, as a Texan who has worked with you and TSRA since 2009 to advance gun rights and OC, I must say that I have concerns about this approach. I agree with people not patronizing posted businesses. Even better is to tell them why, try to convince them otherwise and failing that to also praise the the non-posting businesses you choose instead.

My observation about signs is that the post rate is directly proportional to the media attention surrounding gun carry. When corporate PR departments and attorneys get involved due to inquires from the news media, that is usually a bad sign. Sonic comes to mind. We've seen this in the past with changes in law that have been widely publicized. Publicity tends to equal postings. Many of the new 30.07 signs were put up in anticipation of OC not in reaction to actual OCers. Most businesses don't give a hoot about CC or OC, are oblivious, and if not prodded won't post anything. Honestly, I fear this maybe counterproductive.

In the past we needed to get the attention of the public and lawmakers to legalize OC. Mission accomplished but I believe now is the time for different tactics. Diplomacy, persuasion, normalization, and low-key one-on-one engagement would be my recommendation. Rather than picketing a restaurant that has posted 30.07, how about someone talk to management and say " I have a lunch gathering for 10/20/30 (whatever) but we want to sit on the patio and enjoy the Texas sunshine with our guns uncovered. How about taking down the 30.07 sign & giving it a try? If we are both happy with the outcome, there maybe thers are more opportunities like this." Especially if the place is only posted 30.07, he/she is tacitly supportive of CC. We just need to convince him/her that OC isn't a scary terrible thing. This reminds me very much of the gatherings I've read about in VA and PA that seemed to be very successful.

If the spotlight can be removed and people just go about their business OCing, it will become "Move along, nothing to see here". Protests and picketing (and counter protests by MDA & Brady Bunch) are the very opposite of this quiet, slow-but-steady assimilation approach. Texans are friendly by nature and that trait can definitely work to our benefit. Similarly, they are ornery and fierce when cornered or pulled into a confrontation that they don't want and that most definitely would not.

SA-TX

 

[BB62]

My observation about signs is that the post rate is directly proportional to the media attention surrounding gun carry. When corporate PR departments and attorneys get involved due to inquires from the news media, that is usually a bad sign. Sonic comes to mind. ...

Hold on a second, there, pardner! Let's call things as they are/were, shall we?

Didn't the media "get involved" with Sonic because of the promotional activities of the Lying Mommies (Moms Demand Action)?

Of course, it would be nice to have this discussion/argument over on TexasCHLforum, where you made an identical post, but the sensibilities over there aren't exactly amenable to such things, are they?

 

[solus]

Hold on a second, there, pardner! Let's call things as they are/were, shall we?

Didn't the media "get involved" with Sonic because of the promotional activities of the Lying Mommies (Moms Demand Action)?

Of course, it would be nice to have this discussion/argument over on TexasCHLforum, where you made an identical post, but the sensibilities over there aren't exactly amenable to such things, are they?

sorry thought sonic (and a gaggle of other national chains got excited by the LGOC folk during the let's be 'in your face' mode of the FAILED OCT campaign...

ipse

 

[SA-TX]

Picketing Businesses

sorry thought sonic (and a gaggle of other national chains got excited by the LGOC folk during the let's be 'in your face' mode of the FAILED OCT campaign...

ipse

Correct. Sonic & others didn't like LGOC and the publicity caused them to issue a corporate statement. Businesses, in general don't want to be the rope in a game of tug-of-war between pro 2A and anti-2A groups. This is why I am concerned about the announced strategy and think that low-key, 1:1 approach would be better.

As the other responder said, I did post the same thing on texaschlforum.com as that group is very interested in getting to come down as well. As for being a different crowd, that's true, but there are plenty of OCersthere as well as those who support OC even if they choose not to do so.

SA-TX

 

[stealthyeliminator]

sorry thought sonic (and a gaggle of other national chains got excited by the LGOC folk during the let's be 'in your face' mode of the FAILED OCT campaign...

ipse

Correct. Sonic & others didn't like LGOC and the publicity caused them to issue a corporate statement. Businesses, in general don't want to be the rope in a game of tug-of-war between pro 2A and anti-2A groups. This is why I am concerned about the announced strategy and think that low-key, 1:1 approach would be better.

As the other responder said, I did post the same thing on texaschlforum.com as that group is very interested in getting to come down as well. As for being a different crowd, that's true, but there are plenty of OCersthere as well as those who support OC even if they choose not to do so.

SA-TX

Correct? No... The judgment from our friend across the country is faulty and uninformed. As I'm sure he is completely unaware, the LGOC methods have been and continue to be largely successful.

No matter how "soft" your methods, somebody is going to bellyache and blow it out of proportion. Things got done quickly so far as getting some form of HGOC passed, but not until OCT was on the scene. Prior to that, things were moving about as fast as molasses, as plenty of members here should be able to attest to.

As far as Sonic is concerned specifically, I can't recall seeing any signs at the ones I have visited... On the contrary, I can recall doing some activism in front of one and subsequently eating there. Go figure. Maybe solus, all the way over in NC, just doesn't know what the **** he's talking about. :shrugs:

 

[solus]

Correct? No... The judgment from our friend across the country is faulty and uninformed. As I'm sure he is completely unaware, the LGOC methods have been and continue to be largely successful.

No matter how "soft" your methods, somebody is going to bellyache and blow it out of proportion. Things got done quickly so far as getting some form of HGOC passed, but not until OCT was on the scene. Prior to that, things were moving about as fast as molasses, as plenty of members here should be able to attest to.

As far as Sonic is concerned specifically, I can't recall seeing any signs at the ones I have visited... On the contrary, I can recall doing some activism in front of one and subsequently eating there. Go figure. Maybe solus, all the way over in NC, just doesn't know what the **** he's talking about. :shrugs:

sorry, this has been hashed, rehashed numerous times on this forum. you stealth, even in face of direct cites from 1) multiple national news agencies & numerous responses from national corp organizations stating either a new or refined modifying their firearm policy. 2) Texas firearms entities publicly stating their LGOC campaign was a mistake and caused national repercussions yet fail to acknowledge that ~ for whatever reason.

your deflection based on your standard mantra of 'they don't know what they are talking about' is amazing.

but i noticed you didn't provide any cite disputing my statement.

ipse

added: i realized i failed to provide cites myself:

motherjones ~ http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/nra-open-carry-guns-backlash-texas
quote: THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS have been rough for proponents of open-carry gun laws. No fewer than seven restaurant chains have taken a stand against firearms being brought to their businesses, after activists in Texas conducted provocative demonstrations in which they toted semi-automatic rifles into various eateries. unquote.

motherjones ~ http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/guns-open-carry-chilis-sonic-videos
quote: No fewer than five national food and beverage chains have now told them to get rid of their guns or get lost, including Starbucks, Wendy’s, Applebees, Jack in the Box, and Chipotle. unquote

if you wish, i can review the other cites i have and provide them as necessary.

 

[BB62]

sorry thought sonic (and a gaggle of other national chains got excited by the LGOC folk during the let's be 'in your face' mode of the FAILED OCT campaign.

I used to think as you do, but time, research and lots of reading have changed my mind.

I think what you perceive as an "in your face" campaign was 1) the only open carry method that Texans could use (barring carrying black powder pistols or somesuch), and 2) the result of anti-gun media amplifying the lies and misdirection of the Lying Mommies.

Most people don't realize that there are/were two open carrying Texas groups (which I know only the basics of) - Open Carry Texas and Open Carry Tarrant County.

OCT "failed" IMHO because many pro-gun people/groups in Texas and otherwise 1) bought into the lies spread about OCT and their doings, and 2) because they don't really believe in open carry, and look at OC as messing with their CC "rights". As far as I'm concerned, the owner/moderators of the previously mentioned TexasCHLforum, as well as a number of members there, fall into the above described categories.

 

[BB62]

sorry, this has been hashed, rehashed numerous times on this forum. you stealth, even in face of direct cites from 1) multiple national news agencies & numerous responses from national corp organizations stating either a new or refined modifying their firearm policy. 2) Texas firearms entities publicly stating their LGOC campaign was a mistake and caused national repercussions yet fail to acknowledge that ~ for whatever reason.

your deflection based on your standard mantra of 'they don't know what they are talking about' is amazing.

but i noticed you didn't provide any cite disputing my statement.

ipse

added: i realized i failed to provide cites myself:

motherjones ~ http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/nra-open-carry-guns-backlash-texas
quote: THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS have been rough for proponents of open-carry gun laws. No fewer than seven restaurant chains have taken a stand against firearms being brought to their businesses, after activists in Texas conducted provocative demonstrations in which they toted semi-automatic rifles into various eateries. unquote.

motherjones ~ http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/guns-open-carry-chilis-sonic-videos
quote: No fewer than five national food and beverage chains have now told them to get rid of their guns or get lost, including Starbucks, Wendy’s, Applebees, Jack in the Box, and Chipotle. unquote

if you wish, i can review the other cites i have and provide them as necessary.

Again, the Lying Mommies and the anti-gun media merrily got together to paint a misleading picture (surprise, surprise!) and various companies made requests of their customers in order to mollify both sides. Of course the Lying Mommies claimed, and continue to claim, victory.

From the first article: "Update June 3, 2014, 7:15pm EDT: The NRA is now beating a retreat from its condemnation of the Texas activists. Timothy Johnson of Media Matters for America reports that the NRA's top lobbyist Chris Cox appeared on a NRA radio show on Tuesday to apologize for and repudiate the NRA's lengthy post criticizing the open carry movement: "Cox said that the statement was 'a mistake' and that 'it shouldn't have happened,' adding 'our job is not to criticize the lawful behavior of fellow gun owners.' Cox also blamed the statement on a 'staffer' who Cox said 'expressed his personal opinion.'"

 

[stealthyeliminator]

OCT "failed" IMHO because many pro-gun people/groups in Texas and otherwise 1) bought into the lies spread about OCT and their doings, and 2) because they don't really believe in open carry, and look at OC as messing with their CC "rights". As far as I'm concerned, the owner/moderators of the previously mentioned TexasCHLforum, as well as a number of members there, fall into the above described categories.

OCT's mission is not to "convert" the pre-existing CC cult or the MDA into being reasonable, fact-acute people. OCT isn't a group of psychiatrists and counselors.