Wth

[sudden valley gunner]

The best our "Leaders(?)" are coming up with is "ban more weapons", not "let's put more emphasis on mental health evaluation, treatment, and if necessary, institutions".

They do when it fits their agenda ask ex Marine Raub.

No they don't need to steal more money from us for more emphasis on anything.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

They do when it fits their agenda ask ex Marine Raub.

No they don't need to steal more money from us for more emphasis on anything.

Yes, we need to have mental health treatment available to those who cannot pay for it.

These types of things such as mass shootings were virtually unheard of when we had a system of halfway houses and mental hospitals. Maybe your idea of "the free market" is to have crazy people walking the streets attacking everyone, or to have people who don't have the mental capacity to think for themselves somehow find out how to take care of themselves. Fortunatly people like you are not in charge

Maybe if John T Williams had recieved effective treatment for his addiction and numerous mental health issues he'd still be alive today, this ripples throughout society, when mentally ill people are becoming violent and walking out in public and a police officer sees someone like Williams, who looks like a mental defect walking through the streets with an open blade what are we to expect is going to happen?

especially in our largest cities, there's people walking around who are one missed dose of medicine away from going postal. Walter St... I can't spell the name, the father of the Cafe Racer shooter tried to get his son help numerous times to no avail, in the 60s Ian would've been committed and those people in the cafe or the woman just driving home in her car would still be alive.

I personally know a girl who's parents are affiliated with a church, and they try to provide help for these mentally ill people, but the faithful simply don't have enough money to take care of it, just like Ron Paul's campaign manager who got sick and died with 200,000 dollars in bills outstanding that his insurance wouldn't cover, private donations peaked at 30 thousand dollars, even Ron Paul's libertarian freak show let one of their own die with hundreds of thousands of dollars costing the government, and didn't even front 10% of the cost in the way the advocated.

Simply speaking, your ideas are impossible, especially on the mental health issues.

 

[Jim675]

Yes, we need to have mental health treatment available to those who cannot pay for it.

These types of things such as mass shootings were virtually unheard of when we had a system of halfway houses and mental hospitals. Maybe your idea of "the free market" is to have crazy people walking the streets attacking everyone, or to have people who don't have the mental capacity to think for themselves somehow find out how to take care of themselves. Fortunatly people like you are not in charge

Maybe if John T Williams had recieved effective treatment for his addiction and numerous mental health issues he'd still be alive today, this ripples throughout society, when mentally ill people are becoming violent and walking out in public and a police officer sees someone like Williams, who looks like a mental defect walking through the streets with an open blade what are we to expect is going to happen?

especially in our largest cities, there's people walking around who are one missed dose of medicine away from going postal. Walter St... I can't spell the name, the father of the Cafe Racer shooter tried to get his son help numerous times to no avail, in the 60s Ian would've been committed and those people in the cafe or the woman just driving home in her car would still be alive.

I personally know a girl who's parents are affiliated with a church, and they try to provide help for these mentally ill people, but the faithful simply don't have enough money to take care of it, just like Ron Paul's campaign manager who got sick and died with 200,000 dollars in bills outstanding that his insurance wouldn't cover, private donations peaked at 30 thousand dollars, even Ron Paul's libertarian freak show let one of their own die with hundreds of thousands of dollars costing the government, and didn't even front 10% of the cost in the way the advocated.

Simply speaking, your ideas are impossible, especially on the mental health issues.

1. The numbers of mass shootings and victims has been relatively stable for decades.
http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/2012/08/no_increase_in_mass_shootings.html

2. Citing John T Williams as if his death was even remotely his fault is deplorable. I am also hard of hearing. That could have been me.

3. Do you have any cite that shows the incidence of mental illness is higher in cities than rural areas? I do not believe it is. And smaller towns often have even fewer resources per resident.

4. Your slander of Dr Paul and libertarians in general shows a(nother) wide knowledge gap.

 

[amzbrady]

And now it appears, based on a recent news release, that this kid's Mother KNEW her kid was "different". SHE chose to provide him with the guns he used, telling people she thought shooting would be a good activity for him and it might have a "calming" effect on him.

The money would have been better spent on some psychological counseling. Maybe a professional would have seen this coming long ago and he would have been "adjudicated" as mentally ill.

Combine the untreated mental illness due to people not wanting any social stigma attached to their kids, the lack of family (this shooter was from a broken family), and the overall despair that goes with a failing economy, makes for a dangerous combination. How many more "time bombs" are walking the street today like this kid and the last several mass shooters?

The best our "Leaders(?)" are coming up with is "ban more weapons", not "let's put more emphasis on mental health evaluation, treatment, and if necessary, institutions".

yep

 

[EMNofSeattle]

1. The numbers of mass shootings and victims has been relatively stable for decades.
http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/2012/08/no_increase_in_mass_shootings.html

2. Citing John T Williams as if his death was even remotely his fault is deplorable. I am also hard of hearing. That could have been me.

3. Do you have any cite that shows the incidence of mental illness is higher in cities than rural areas? I do not believe it is. And smaller towns often have even fewer resources per resident.

4. Your slander of Dr Paul and libertarians in general shows a(nother) wide knowledge gap.

1. Your graph starts at the 1980s. Which is when the mental asylums began shutting down in earnest. Compare from the 1960s and we have a whole different story, also I include all massacres, not just gun massacres. being killed by a knife doesn't make you morally superior then being killed by a gun

Massacres have become more prevelant since the 1960s, this is like the global warming people who set their graphs to the 1880s or 1920s to show an upward trend in tempurature because the baseline is so cold that much of anything is warmer in comparison. if you set the global warming graph to known warm spells such as the 1930s it'll show a downward tempurature trend.

2. I do think Williams shares in some reponsibility for his death, however I think society holds most of the blame. We no longer have many resources to help people like williams who desparately need it. The libertarians who accuse the officer of "murder" in shooting him bear equal responsbility, this whole anti-government mantra or letting "the private sector" take care of people who have no money has been an abject failure. There should be assistance for people like williams so they can get clean and sober and live productive lives instead of sit drunk on the street making a nuissance of themselves. We have large numbers of homeless people who have mental health issues, have alchohol and substance abuse issues, but not enough support to try to help them. so after these homeless people scare aware customers of businesses, and pee on the sidewalk, and masturbate in alleyways, these private sector businesses demand the government do something about it, but won't front any money for productive solutions, so the police end up having to deal with them. people like williams don't need to get shot or go to jail, they need genuine help, but guess what, when people want the government to take care of these mental defects but not to pay taxes to support it, the Police Department becomes the agency in charge of dealing with mental health issues. And they can't help those people, all they can do is take them to jail.

3. I know for a fact mental illness incidence is higher in seattle then in the surrounding suburbs. when these people act up in Bellevue they get taken to seattle because the police arrest them and drive them to king county jail.

4. What part do you doubt?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-died-pneumonia-afford-health-insurance.html

WHY? WHY? Why did these libertarians let the cost get passed on to us? huh?

I understand exactly what libertarianism is all about, and they don't even meet their own standard. like John frickin' Stossel who railed against the federal flood insurance program, that he is insured under and has made multiple claims against.

I have no problem paying taxes, I could've gotten a full tax refund this year, and I opted not to take it becuase I believe in having a society that works for people. Not the "fend for yourself" libertarians who will mooch benefits as they wish, who really just want to live in society as it stands without paying for it.

 

[Jim675]

My last post on this derailment effort, you may have the last word.

1. Do you have a cite for mass killings increasing in the 1960's? I've seen list of school attacks (bombs, etc...) back into the 1800's.

2. Birk pulled the trigger on a man who was not breaking any law. What Williams may have done at some previous point is completely irrelevant.

3. I didn't mention suburbs. I said rural areas.

4. I do not doubt that he had medical issues or lack of decent insurance.

WHY? WHY? Why did these libertarians let the cost get passed on to us? huh?

Cost are ALWAYS passed on to either us, our children, or our creditors if we default. Who do think pays for the free insurance?

You apparently do not understand libertarianism. Recapturing immorally taken taxes is not an ethical shortcoming. If you were robbed on the street corner and later had a chance to take 1% of it from the thief's wallet is it wrong?

While I applaud your civic mindedness, I am extremely skeptical that it will create the benefit that you anticipate. Our gov's spending is truly out of control and taxes collected no longer have much bearing on money spent. Sort of like having a loved one with a gambling problem - giving them an extra $1000 probably won't result in wiser investments. Good luck.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

My last post on this derailment effort, you may have the last word.

1. Do you have a cite for mass killings increasing in the 1960's? I've seen list of school attacks (bombs, etc...) back into the 1800's.

2. Birk pulled the trigger on a man who was not breaking any law. What Williams may have done at some previous point is completely irrelevant.

3. I didn't mention suburbs. I said rural areas.

4. I do not doubt that he had medical issues or lack of decent insurance.

WHY? WHY? Why did these libertarians let the cost get passed on to us? huh?

Cost are ALWAYS passed on to either us, our children, or our creditors if we default. Who do think pays for the free insurance?

You apparently do not understand libertarianism. Recapturing immorally taken taxes is not an ethical shortcoming. If you were robbed on the street corner and later had a chance to take 1% of it from the thief's wallet is it wrong?

While I applaud your civic mindedness, I am extremely skeptical that it will create the benefit that you anticipate. Our gov's spending is truly out of control and taxes collected no longer have much bearing on money spent. Sort of like having a loved one with a gambling problem - giving them an extra $1000 probably won't result in wiser investments. Good luck.

1. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201207/mass-murders-are-the-rise

2. I've talked about how I feel on the birk incident several times. I think Society has created the problem that led to that incident. We expect our police officers to be doing too much, in addition we have people like Williams who should've been in a hospital recieving help for his alcohol abuse and mental health issues. Williams didn't deserve to be on the recieving end of police gunfire, and it's unfair to the cops that we expect THEM to deal with mentally ill people and addicts when these people need professional help.

Williams was walking down the street with a knife blade out, he was not widdling at the time of the encounter, I don't walk down the street holding my blade in my hand, it's clipped in m y pocket or if i'm on the way to my hiking or fishing or camping site I have a fixed blade knife secured in belt holster. I would completely expect to be talking to law enforcement if i was walking down the road holding a deadly weapon in my hand and not legitimately using it. be it a gun, knife, club you name it.

So a police officer sights him and goes to talk to him, he's not initially responsive so a young rookie officer gets excited and jacks out some rounds at williams. What was Birk thinking? Damned if I know, but i don't think he stepped out of the car meaning to hurt anyone at that time. Say what you want, but that was bound to happen sooner or later, and it will probably happen again in the near future. We can't keep letting people like williams walk free intoxicated and making problems and then expecting the police to sit him down for tea when he's walking around, drunk or in some kind of mental state, holding a 3 inch blade. We as a society need to do better, yes SPD needs to reform their practices, and we need to re-establish a system of asylums and substance abuse centers to get these people clean so cops don't have to deal with them. we have systemic failure of society to care for their weakest members. Why do you even care that cops shot williams? in a truly libertarian society he'd of probably died years ago, if he drank too much and the hospital wouldn't take him because he couldn't pay, well there you go, the libertarian society kills them out much more effeciently then Ian Birks ever can...


3. I don't have such numbers, anecdotally I don't think it occurs near as often. But I will look into it.
4. Of course cost is passed on to us, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, part of the idea of having a society is group security. if the majority of the group contributes then the weaker members can be taken care of. I don't think there's anything morally wrong in and of itself that Mr. Paul's campaign manager got taken care of on government expense. That's part of the reason I'm willing to pay taxes. I would also appreciate that service being there for me, which is why I don't have a problem with the program, I do have a problem with people who make issues about said programs while using it up though.

And finally, that argument is always used, if a libertarian figurehead who could very well afford a more expensive private sector option uses a government program, he's just "taking his own money back" but if someone else who can't afford one and thus uses that program does so then they're "mooching off the system" like Stossel on a recent episode knocking unemployment insurance and mocking people waiting in line to make their claims, because they didn't get a minimum wage resturaunt job within blocks of the UI office. yet when Stossel interviewed them most of them were laid off working professionals like a nurse, an accountant etc. well did those people pay taxes while working? why is it wrong for them to take THEIR money back? while they search for another professional job in their field...

so basically I got mine but you can't have yours...

 

[bmg50cal]

[video=youtube;kNYKxiRJ2LA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNYKxiRJ2LA[/video]

 

[1245A Defender]

Just Wowwie!!!

((( Sniped)))
I've talked about how I feel on the birk incident several times. I think Society has created the problem that led to that incident. We expect our police officers to be doing too much, in addition we have people like Williams who should've been in a hospital recieving help for his alcohol abuse and mental health issues. Williams didn't deserve to be on the recieving end of police gunfire, and it's unfair to the cops that we expect THEM to deal with mentally ill people and addicts when these people need professional help.

Williams was walking down the street with a knife blade out, he was not widdling at the time of the encounter, I don't walk down the street holding my blade in my hand, it's clipped in m y pocket or if i'm on the way to my hiking or fishing or camping site I have a fixed blade knife secured in belt holster. I would completely expect to be talking to law enforcement if i was walking down the road holding a deadly weapon in my hand and not legitimately using it. be it a gun, knife, club you name it.

So a police officer sights him and goes to talk to him, he's not initially responsive so a young rookie officer gets excited and jacks out some rounds at williams. What was Birk thinking? Damned if I know, but i don't think he stepped out of the car meaning to hurt anyone at that time. Say what you want, but that was bound to happen sooner or later, and it will probably happen again in the near future. We can't keep letting people like williams walk free intoxicated and making problems and then expecting the police to sit him down for tea when he's walking around, drunk or in some kind of mental state, holding a 3 inch blade. We as a society need to do better, yes SPD needs to reform their practices, and we need to re-establish a system of asylums and substance abuse centers to get these people clean so cops don't have to deal with them. we have systemic failure of society to care for their weakest members. Why do you even care that cops shot williams? in a truly libertarian society he'd of probably died years ago, if he drank too much and the hospital wouldn't take him because he couldn't pay, well there you go, the libertarian society kills them out much more effeciently then Ian Birks ever can...
...

Quoted For Truth...

I just dont have the time to express the depth of my discust for the depth and bredth of your statist allowance for Police misconduct...
I mean... MURDER!!

I trust that Anyone reading your explanation of John T. Williams demise will agree with me without having to be told, so I wont...

 

[tombrewster421]

1. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201207/mass-murders-are-the-rise

2. I've talked about how I feel on the birk incident several times. I think Society has created the problem that led to that incident. We expect our police officers to be doing too much, in addition we have people like Williams who should've been in a hospital recieving help for his alcohol abuse and mental health issues. Williams didn't deserve to be on the recieving end of police gunfire, and it's unfair to the cops that we expect THEM to deal with mentally ill people and addicts when these people need professional help.

Williams was walking down the street with a knife blade out, he was not widdling at the time of the encounter, I don't walk down the street holding my blade in my hand, it's clipped in m y pocket or if i'm on the way to my hiking or fishing or camping site I have a fixed blade knife secured in belt holster. I would completely expect to be talking to law enforcement if i was walking down the road holding a deadly weapon in my hand and not legitimately using it. be it a gun, knife, club you name it.

So a police officer sights him and goes to talk to him, he's not initially responsive so a young rookie officer gets excited and jacks out some rounds at williams. What was Birk thinking? Damned if I know, but i don't think he stepped out of the car meaning to hurt anyone at that time. Say what you want, but that was bound to happen sooner or later, and it will probably happen again in the near future. We can't keep letting people like williams walk free intoxicated and making problems and then expecting the police to sit him down for tea when he's walking around, drunk or in some kind of mental state, holding a 3 inch blade. We as a society need to do better, yes SPD needs to reform their practices, and we need to re-establish a system of asylums and substance abuse centers to get these people clean so cops don't have to deal with them. we have systemic failure of society to care for their weakest members. Why do you even care that cops shot williams? in a truly libertarian society he'd of probably died years ago, if he drank too much and the hospital wouldn't take him because he couldn't pay, well there you go, the libertarian society kills them out much more effeciently then Ian Birks ever can...


3. I don't have such numbers, anecdotally I don't think it occurs near as often. But I will look into it.
4. Of course cost is passed on to us, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, part of the idea of having a society is group security. if the majority of the group contributes then the weaker members can be taken care of. I don't think there's anything morally wrong in and of itself that Mr. Paul's campaign manager got taken care of on government expense. That's part of the reason I'm willing to pay taxes. I would also appreciate that service being there for me, which is why I don't have a problem with the program, I do have a problem with people who make issues about said programs while using it up though.

And finally, that argument is always used, if a libertarian figurehead who could very well afford a more expensive private sector option uses a government program, he's just "taking his own money back" but if someone else who can't afford one and thus uses that program does so then they're "mooching off the system" like Stossel on a recent episode knocking unemployment insurance and mocking people waiting in line to make their claims, because they didn't get a minimum wage resturaunt job within blocks of the UI office. yet when Stossel interviewed them most of them were laid off working professionals like a nurse, an accountant etc. well did those people pay taxes while working? why is it wrong for them to take THEIR money back? while they search for another professional job in their field...

so basically I got mine but you can't have yours...

Just curious as to why you think the knife blade was out when Williams was shot. Is it because Birk said so? You do know that it was found on the ground in the closed position right. Knives don't typically close on their own. Especially since most of them have a locking mechanism so it doesn't close on your fingers while you're using it. There is absolutely no evidence that Williams had the blade out or was a threat. He was walking AWAY from Birk. If you were the one to shoot him you would be in jail for murder. But you're not a cop though are you?

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Massacres actually peaked in the late '20's.

EMN's solutions are all about force not liberty.

Force people to be in institutions forcibly take money.....etc. His solutions have historically not worked. There is not one thing government can do better than the private sector.

He is a wanna be cop making an excuse like many other cops do for the murder of a man breaking no laws.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Just curious as to why you think the knife blade was out when Williams was shot. Is it because Birk said so? You do know that it was found on the ground in the closed position right. Knives don't typically close on their own. Especially since most of them have a locking mechanism so it doesn't close on your fingers while you're using it. There is absolutely no evidence that Williams had the blade out or was a threat. He was walking AWAY from Birk. If you were the one to shoot him you would be in jail for murder. But you're not a cop though are you?

Becuase it's the only choice that makes sense, without an open blade or something that looked like it Williams would be indistinguishable from any number of homeless people in the area. Therefore making it unlikely that Williams would've been stopped no one has proved that Birk had a history of terry stopping individuals or that he had a grudge against Williams in particular. The knife recovered from what I understand was not a brand name quality blade, I have an old pocket knife that will sometimes flip open if dropped. An unlocking blade would likely close if falling near the back of the blade.

I have looked over the inquest records and all media involving the incident, I can't think of anything that makes sense other then an open blade. Unless Birk was just looking for someone to shoot and happened the luck out that he was carrying a cheap pocket knife that was closed....

 

[sudden valley gunner]

I guess you missed the part that he was well known to SPD?

Sorry it still don't make sense even if opened, there was no RAS. Ian Birk is a murderer and you are making excuses for him. That is sick. Please don't become a cop or a lawyer.

Did you even watch the dashcam video, even if it was open he was using it on a block of wood....something a woodcarver would do.

Your assertions he belonged in an institution is wrong too, it leaves out the fact that he might have chosen to live his life the way he did.

Stealing peoples money because a very small amount of the mentally ill go crazy is theft.

 

[MSG Laigaie]

Becuase it's the only choice that makes sense,............ I can't think of anything that makes sense other then an open blade. Unless Birk was just looking for someone to shoot and happened the luck out that he was carrying a cheap pocket knife that was closed....

You are assuming the individual that shot him was a "good guy". Some LEOs, and I believe it is only some, have a messianic complex that pushes them to bullying. I have a badge, you don't, and you are weak. I can be a bully and get away with it. This time there was a negligent discharge and someone died. "Oh, he had a knife" and others that have died due to someone being a "harda$$".

Do not assume he was correct and try to fit his version into the picture. You sound like an IA investigation. If it walks like a duck............

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Quoted For Truth...

I just dont have the time to express the depth of my discust for the depth and bredth of your statist allowance for Police misconduct...
I mean... MURDER!!

I trust that Anyone reading your explanation of John T. Williams demise will agree with me without having to be told, so I wont...

I think I've made it perfectly clear that I don't think Williams needed to be shot or that Birk was justified.

It certainly isn't murder though, if charges were ever filed I think the DA would plead him out to man 1 with 10 to 15 as a sentence recommendation... Murder requires proving malice, not always easy to do.

Please don't misinterpret what I say. I said Williams killing at the hands of Birk is the result of a failure of society to properly care for these people. Alcoholism is big among the native American community especially. Often time inherited, the Europeans gave booze to the natives for that reason. Williams should've been treated for that, we did a bunch of nasty stuff that still hasn't been right to the NA community... But now I'm off on a tangent.


Maybe that wouldn't have prevented anything. But I think it would. The Birk-Williams affair is only a symptom of much deeper rooted problems in our society

 

[Trigger Dr]

Patience and understanding Grasshopper.

It is well know by most of us on this forum, of your affinity for becoming an LEO. I have personally observed you speaking with C.O.P. Townsend in Port Orchard. The look on your face, the way you get the giddy feeling while speaking with THE MAN. You reminded me of a little puppy wanting to be petted.
Eric, you need to stop and take a long, hard look at what is going on in this crazy world. It is not the bed of roses you wish for, and will never be that way.
You are an intelligent YOUNG person but you severely lack in some of the areas of common sense.

 

[gogodawgs]

<snip> I said Williams killing at the hands of Birk is the result of a failure of society to properly care for these people. <snip>

No, Williams murder is the sole responsibility of ofc. Birk.

[h=1]“We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” ~Reagan

[/h]
Your comment "these people" reeks of racism and elitism.

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

(snip) I said Williams killing at the hands of Birk is the result of a failure of society to properly care for these people.

William's killing at the hands of Birk is the result of Birk killing him. Re-assigning the blame from the responsible individual onto the collective is a favored tactic of the antis. Don't use it if you want to be taken seriously.