• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

To be free or not too?

Are penalties too harsh for sex offenders?

  • No they should be worse.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, just right.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • They are improper.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes they are people too.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Rehabilitaion is key.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Heartless_Conservative

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
269
Location
, Oregon, USA
imported post

They are all right for actual sex offenders, but the registry gets a little cheapened when they put every teen who gets a little drunk and urinates in public on it. I am all for keeping track of sex offenders, but the definition needs to be a lot tighter.
+1

Of course, the whole concept of a registry seems a little silly to me . Then again, I'm somewhat of a "bullet, back of the head, end of problem" kind of guy, so take anything I say on this matter with a large grain of salt. I'd agree with whoever suggested the "second strike and you're out...permenantly" approach.
 

imperialism2024

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
3,047
Location
Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

Particle wrote:
I think we put way too much emphasis on sex in this country. As such, to me rape isn't nearly as big of a deal as other types of assaults where people are severely injured. Of course it should be a serious crime, but I do have to dissent from the popular view. (Watch me be berated for this, despite this forum being all about alternative views. *cough*)

Child molestation is a big deal comparatively, however. I don't really see any problem with the current system if what we have now is on the harshest end of the spectrum. As with things like petty drug charges and IP theft cases, I strongly disagree with taking away years of a person's freedom entirely (and then doing the same thing somewhat even after prison). That to me is the ultimate crime anyone can commit. Here we are giving the state that authority. That's reckless...especially since they get it wrong so often.
Hmmm... sounds good.

As for the former part, it seems incredibly ironic that while rape is considered so emotionally scarring, so many people revel in the raping that accused rapists will get in prison. But yes, American prudishness certainly factors in significantly in our views on the seriousness of rape. Then again, we gotta remember to respect our American Right to Christianity... :uhoh:
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Particle wrote:
I think we put way too much emphasis on sex in this country. As such, to me rape isn't nearly as big of a deal as other types of assaults where people are severely injured. Of course it should be a serious crime, but I do have to dissent from the popular view. (Watch me be berated for this, despite this forum being all about alternative views. *cough*)
This forum is not about alternative views - it is about open carry and directly related topics.

I'm not going to berate you - that would be personal. I respect your right to your opinion but you must bear the weight of your words too.

I'm a male also and the chances of my ever being raped (unless I were to be imprisoned) are remote. That said, we cannot truly relate to what a female in any society might experience - the physical + emotional damage.

What might be overlooked is that virtually all rapes involve the use of force and frequently actual infliction of injury or death. While these acts may constitute grounds for separate charges, they compound the heinousness of the crime.
Rape is not a simple assault - it is identifiably greater. Before you object to this logic, understand that their are many other degrees of assault and similarly various degrees of murder.

Not on my watch - Yata hey
 

Particle

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
134
Location
, , USA
imported post

I agree with you for the most part. This forum is about alternate views, however. Open carry is an alternate view to the norm. It's that kind of thinking that fosters a community like this.
 

imperialism2024

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
3,047
Location
Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

Particle wrote:
I agree with you for the most part. This forum is about alternate views, however. Open carry is an alternate view to the norm. It's that kind of thinking that fosters a community like this.

Unfortunately, I don't think that's entirely accurate. Although OCDO members, in general, strongly support open carry even though it is the minority opinion even in the pro-gun movement, it's still a pro-gun opinion, which still falls under the aggregate of Republican issues. This is why we have a thread seemingly every other day about how immigrants shouldn't have any rights. Just following the party... There are certianly many who have the open mindedness that is the logical conclusion of open carry support, but I get the impression that they're in the minority.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Partical,

I know that I am arguing semantics but this forum is not "all about alternative views" nor as your follow up posting stated more simply "about alternate views." Were this forum about alternative views, we would be discussing myriad points of view, how they are developed, who has what perspective and why - it would be a philosophical discussion and quite frankly would smack of academia liberalism where the other persons perspective becomes paramount to the premise.

An alternative view to this forums stated purpose might be to discuss the cost of moving material by rail: pro & con, logistics et al relating to cost. We call this "high jacking" - using OCDO for purposes not intended. There are milder forms of cross purposes/alternative views which may gain condemnation or censure depending on content.

The proposition here on OCDO is that we have the right to open carry, that it is God given, that the Constitution guarantees it. Do we accept alternative points of view in postings here? Of course, but those in opposition to this premise will be re-educated or "flamed" as deemed appropriate. We are not necessarily a completely tolerant collection of individuals - suggest that the 2nd Amendment has outlived its time and see.

What we are "about" is the right to defend ourselves and loved ones from harm and to do so openly. Alternative views are tolerated but not acceptable.

Do you personally OC or are you testing the waters so to speak. In any event, good to see you here and keep posting.



Yata hey
 

Heartless_Conservative

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
269
Location
, Oregon, USA
imported post

Then again, we gotta remember to respect our American Right to Christianity... :uhoh:


Seriously, what is your problem? Were you kicked around by a nun when you were little or are you just another one of those hypocritical bigots? I really do think that alot of what you say is pretty spot on, but statements like that greatly strain your credibility because it shows either a degree of bigotry, or an extreme ignorance of both current (such as the last 30-40 years) events, as well as basic facts of American history.


Anyways, more on topic; I agree totally that ideally, someone who is not ready to be a full member of society (such as voting and owning whatever kind of kind they want) shouldn't be out of prison. Unfortunately, its easier to change laws than minds and hearts, so until we reverse this 'progressive' wave thats swept over the nation (didn't you hear, punishing criminals is soooooo 1950's), mandating stricter punishment is probably the only option we have.
 

Particle

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
134
Location
, , USA
imported post

No, I don't personally OC. You'd probably have to live in Parsons for a while to understand why. If I OC'd here, I'd probably be killed by the police. I do strongly support the choice for anyone who cares to exercise their right, however. That's why I'm here in the first place.

You'll notice that I don't make many threads. Those that I do make are all related to the core topic of this forum. My comments on the threads other people make here are related to the individual topics being discussed. After being here a while, it is clear to me that this forum isn't strictly about OC. Many threads are made by others that aren't even weapon related, and those threads are often quite lively and successful. I don't feel that I should be criticised for answering the questions brought by this thread or others. In this case, the question was what my opinion was of the topic in the OP. I provided it. A couple users asked questions about my first post, so I answered them as well. How this is considered high jacking the thread doesn't make any sense to me. It is simply called discussion. That is what forum software is meant to facilitate.

To be perfectly honest, if this community will not tolerate people exercising their rights or expressing their views even when differing from the majority, I am in the wrong place. Does this forum not really care about all the talk of not being "sheeple", knowing one's God-given rights, etc that is frequently discussed here? You can't pick and choose your true rights. You've either got them all or you've got none, since rights can only be enumerated--not granted or revoked. If not, that is quite hypocritical and shallow--to talk about the greatness of such concepts and profess to follow them yet turn on others here doing the exact same thing in an area other than solely gun rights.

If you all feel this to be the case, I will depart to spare you any further headache. It wouldn't be the first time I've had to leave a forum because of the cruelty of other posters.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Particle wrote: Grapeshot replies in green
No, I don't personally OC. You'd probably have to live in Parsons for a while to understand why. If I OC'd here, I'd probably be killed by the police. I do strongly support the choice for anyone who cares to exercise their right, however. That's why I'm here in the first place.
I don't know where Parsons is but if it is an OC state I'm willing to bet that there are those that would be willing to help change the perceptions of local LEOs. I appreciate your being here.

You'll notice that I don't make many threads. Those that I do make are all related to the core topic of this forum. My comments on the threads other people make here are related to the individual topics being discussed. After being here a while, it is clear to me that this forum isn't strictly about OC. Many threads are made by others that aren't even weapon related, and those threads are often quite lively and successful. I don't feel that I should be criticised for answering the questions brought by this thread or others. In this case, the question was what my opinion was of the topic in the OP. I provided it. A couple users asked questions about my first post, so I answered them as well. How this is considered high jacking the thread doesn't make any sense to me. It is simply called discussion. That is what forum software is meant to facilitate.
Not criticizing you nor accusing you of high jacking - these were purely examples of where this forum is not "all about alternative views" - your words.

To be perfectly honest, if this community will not tolerate people exercising their rights or expressing their views even when differing from the majority, I am in the wrong place. Does this forum not really care about all the talk of not being "sheeple", knowing one's God-given rights, etc that is frequently discussed here? You can't pick and choose your true rights. You've either got them all or you've got none, since rights can only be enumerated--not granted or revoked. If not, that is quite hypocritical and shallow--to talk about the greatness of such concepts and profess to follow them yet turn on others here doing the exact same thing in an area other than solely gun rights.
First - I do not claim to speak for the OCDO forum - but for myself. No one, but no one, has indicated that we would not tolerate people expressing their views.

If you all feel this to be the case, I will depart to spare you any further headache. It wouldn't be the first time I've had to leave a forum because of the cruelty of other posters.
Don't be so sensitive. You express your views and I surely can express mine without running you off - I hope.
As I said earlier, it was a case of semantics (relating to the linguistic meaning of words) as in "all about
alternative views" translates to only about alternative views.
You cause me no headache but you, young sir, are a challenge. Do not be guilty of saying your piece and then departing over an imagined slight. No insult was given nor taken. Please do not read into my words things I have not said.
Stay, post, share your thoughts; we are on the same team.
Yata hey
 

Attachments

  • bigthink.gif
    bigthink.gif
    1.3 KB · Views: 114

Particle

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
134
Location
, , USA
imported post

Sounds good to me. I look forward to continued discussion on this board in that case.
 

imperialism2024

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
3,047
Location
Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

Heartless_Conservative wrote:
Then again, we gotta remember to respect our American Right to Christianity... :uhoh:
Seriously, what is your problem? Were you kicked around by a nun when you were little or are you just another one of those hypocritical bigots? I really do think that alot of what you say is pretty spot on, but statements like that greatly strain your credibility because it shows either a degree of bigotry, or an extreme ignorance of both current (such as the last 30-40 years) events, as well as basic facts of American history.


Anyways, more on topic; I agree totally that ideally, someone who is not ready to be a full member of society (such as voting and owning whatever kind of kind they want) shouldn't be out of prison. Unfortunately, its easier to change laws than minds and hearts, so until we reverse this 'progressive' wave thats swept over the nation (didn't you hear, punishing criminals is soooooo 1950's), mandating stricter punishment is probably the only option we have.
In an attempt to not digress too much, I'll summarize. I've seen and participated in both sides of religiousity, being a good Catholic and Republican for the first 15-16 years of my life, but then later finding myself the target of a large amount of scrutiny for my religious views (or lack thereof) in an increasingly religious nation. I'm not one of the militant atheists who believe in freedom from religion, but I object to how much Judeo-Christian religion shapes our country's policy. While I agree with you, I think, that many sectors of American society have become much more secular and perhaps even anti-religious since the 1960s, since the 1980s and especially since 2000 the government (primarily Federal) has been pushing an agenda to promote Judeo-Christian ideals (which definately include some freedoms) instead of true freedom and liberty.

I would start a new thread topic altogether about the relationship between religion and freedoms, but I'm convinced a hot-button topic like that would get shut down for being "off-topic", much like the one about how far the Second Amendment goes...

Returning back to the topic at hand... it seems that before answering how to respond to rape cases, first we must look at the question of how "serious" rape should be considered. Surely, rape is emotionally scarring, but then again so is getting beaten to within an inch of one's life. There is also a misconception that rape is about sex, when more often than not it is about anger and power. Rape is also dehumanizing, but so is being the victim of other violent crimes. I feel that there is a cycle being perpetuated, where women (as men are largely ignored as rape victims) are socialized to believe that rape forces them to become a different person and define themselves as rape victims for the rest of their lives. The rest of society who isn't raped sees how seriously these womens' lives are affected, and then reaffirm the idea that rape destroys a person's life beyond repair. Once again, I'm not denying that it is a very traumatizing experience, but it's not something that, as many argue, is worse than murder. I think of it in a similar vein to so-called "hate crime" legislation... murder is murder whether the killer does it for racist reasons or not; he still decides to take another life unjustly. Similarly, a violent assault is a violent assault, regardless of why a person is assaulted. Yet, it is our culture that puts a special priority on sex, as our Judeo-Christian national background teaches that sex is wrong, with the child-bearing-while-married exception. This is then, perhaps, exploited by prosecutors who need to use the shock word/concept "sex" to elicit a more favorable jury opinion.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

To: imperialism2024
So do you apply the same standard to the rape of a young child?
Yata hey
 

imperialism2024

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
3,047
Location
Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

Grapeshot wrote:
To: imperialism2024
So do you apply the same standard to the rape of a young child?
Yata hey

Yes.

Take note: I don't take very well to people trying to goad me into retracting my position through asking emotionally charged questions.


I would say that the rape of a young child is a particularly violent attack, in terms of the amount of injury inflicted onto the victim. Yes, I would classify it in the same category as a person who tortures a young child non-sexually.

Also notice that nowhere in my posts on this thread that I have suggested that a "violent assault" deserves a soft sentence...

 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

imperialism2024 wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
To: imperialism2024
So do you apply the same standard to the rape of a young child?
Yata hey

Yes.

Take note: I don't take very well to people trying to goad me into retracting my position through asking emotionally charged questions.


I would say that the rape of a young child is a particularly violent attack, in terms of the amount of injury inflicted onto the victim. Yes, I would classify it in the same category as a person who tortures a young child non-sexually.

Also notice that nowhere in my posts on this thread that I have suggested that a "violent assault" deserves a soft sentence...

Not trying to goad you, trying to clarify. I have changed /modified my position throughout my life and do not consider that a negative. It is called having an open mind.
Yata hey
 

imperialism2024

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
3,047
Location
Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

Grapeshot wrote:
imperialism2024 wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
To: imperialism2024
So do you apply the same standard to the rape of a young child?
Yata hey

Yes.

Take note: I don't take very well to people trying to goad me into retracting my position through asking emotionally charged questions.


I would say that the rape of a young child is a particularly violent attack, in terms of the amount of injury inflicted onto the victim. Yes, I would classify it in the same category as a person who tortures a young child non-sexually.

Also notice that nowhere in my posts on this thread that I have suggested that a "violent assault" deserves a soft sentence...

Not trying to goad you, trying to clarify. I have changed /modified my position throughout my life and do not consider that a negative. It is called having an open mind.
Yata hey
Fair enough. I apologize for placing you in the category of people who argue, "well, well, well, if you belive that, then do you still believe it's true if [insert obscenely rare or emotionally charged situation here]", and see that I was erroneous.
 

WhiteFeather

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
221
Location
Oley, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

I don't know why, and I could have sworn I wrote PAY not plan. And the point I was trying to get at as although I respect your views on the death penalty I whole heartedly support public execution. People in general think that jail and therapy solve everything and I find that not the case. I'll play along with someone making a mistake and really trying to clean themselves up. But I feel that if you can't quite get it on the second try you really don't want it that much. Maybe people don't relize it but the goverment doesn't have any money that we don't give them. So to envision a long stay in a rehabilitation center you have to be willing to pay for that crime. And I just don't see why I need to fit the bill because some ..... couldn't keep it in his pants.
 

massltca

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
407
Location
Maryville, Tennessee, USA
imported post

Heartless_Conservative wrote:
They are all right for actual sex offenders, but the registry gets a little cheapened when they put every teen who gets a little drunk and urinates in public on it. I am all for keeping track of sex offenders, but the definition needs to be a lot tighter.
+1

Of course, the whole concept of a registry seems a little silly to me . Then again, I'm somewhat of a "bullet, back of the head, end of problem" kind of guy, so take anything I say on this matter with a large grain of salt. I'd agree with whoever suggested the "second strike and you're out...permenantly" approach.
I'm against the sex offender registry. For one it doesn't work and two it violates the constitution. If a sex offender is such a great risk to let out of prison then he should stay in prison. You go to prison and pay your debt to society and when you are let out that's it you've done your time. I think the penalty for sex offenders should be execution, not registering them for the rest of their lives.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

Particle wrote:
SNIP I think we put way too much emphasis on sex in this country. As such, to me rape isn't nearly as big of a deal as other types of assaults where people are severely injured. Of course it should be a serious crime, but I do have to dissent from the popular view. (Watch me be berated for this, despite this forum being all about alternative views. *cough*)


No berating, just a few points to consider.

Some rapes end in murder.

Pregnancy and STD's are a definite possibility.

Rape almost always includes the threat of grave bodily injury or death to gain compliance.

Some rapes end in beatings.

Rape is not about sex. Its about domination.
 

Sitrep

Regular Member
Joined
May 25, 2007
Messages
150
Location
Here and There, Washington, USA
imported post

Sentencing for crimes should incorporate two parts, punishment and rehabilitation. The standard method of punishment is time in prison, where more time equals more punishment. I don’t think that time in prison is necessarily equal punishment for each person, as each persons experience is very different. Also, I think releasing someone after they have been punished but not rehabilitated is stupid.

I would keep a person in prison until they could prove that rehabilitation had occurred. Granted, they would need a lot more access to rehabilitation resources.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Prisons are training grounds where preditors can improve their skills. Rehabilitation is a myth in reality. The only real benefit is seperating those that would take what you have from you for a specific period of time. Do some people change for the better - yes; however, you only have to look at the recidivism rates to realize how ineffectual our prison system are at rehabilitation.
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/abstract/rpr94.htm
Yata hey
 
Top