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The cop took my gun...

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
Twoskins welcome to OCDO. I can't speak for any of the other, but I'm glad to see you here contributing and asking questions no matter whether you come from Virginia, West Virginia or Timbuktu. Please continue to contribute without consideration to some of those who like to be contrary on occasion. :)

Thank you Jmelvin. Forums are a great place to exchange ideas. This forum is becoming one of my favorites.
I just have to learn the secret "Virginia's only" hand shake, and get my post count up so nap peter can accept me here :)
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
To get kinda back on point I will add that I NEVER intentionally speed. I received a series of tickets 6 years ago and have not been pulled over since.
I decided to NOT continuing to pay my "speeding tax" that local governments appose on the people. I accomplished this by buying an ipod and downloading 200 books on tape. I listens to them and iIt keeps me uber-calm and not so eager to get to my destination that I have to speed to get there 8 minutes earlier!

It's another funny fact of life. Think about that tomorrow when your risking a $200 ticket to get to work 8 minutes ahead of me! Is it really worth it? Or is some sort of misplaced social pressure causing you to speed?
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
I just have to learn the secret "Virginia's only" hand shake,

There you go!

11683-133833_203x203.jpg
 

tcmech

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
368
Location
, ,
Like most things tcmech...there is more to the story, probably more than I know. Scouser is a proud parent in a suburban area that has been plagued with hit and runs as well as children struck by speeding cars.

He's not talking about normal get to work speeding. He's looking at people going over 20 mph faster than the posted limit in residential or other areas where there's a high degree of risk.

I have been there and done that as a parent myself, what we all need to realize is that intolerance of others is wrong, whether that is as a parent worrying about your children, or as a person in a hurry trying to get to where you are going in a hurry.

When you say someone was traveling 20 mph over the limit and deserves to be punished, does someone traveling .2 mph over the limit belong in prison? What if a person is traveling 2 mph over the limit and does not hurt anyone, were they still violating the law?

Sorry if you do not agree, but intolerance is intolerance
 
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peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
I have been there and done that as a parent myself, what we all need to realize is that intolerance of others is wrong, whether that is as a parent worrying about your children, or as a person in a hurry trying to get to where you are going in a hurry.

When you say someone was traveling 20 mph over the limit and deserves to be punished, does someone traveling .2 mph over the limit belong in prison? What if a person is traveling 2 mph over the limit and does not hurt anyone, were they still violating the law?

Sorry if you do not agree, but intolerance is intolerance

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just stating...

Scouser can take care of himself if he feels the need.
 

half_life1052

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
270
Location
Austin, TX
Thank you Jmelvin. Forums are a great place to exchange ideas. This forum is becoming one of my favorites.
I just have to learn the secret "Virginia's only" hand shake, and get my post count up so nap peter can accept me here :)

As has been said by him at least I think it was him, "if you don't have at least two generations buried in the local cemetary, you aren't from around here". For those of us with a northern bent, here is what those terms they use to describe us mean:

Yankee - You still live up north and they only have to put up with reading things from you.
Damm yankee - You had to go and decide to move down south.

G** Damm yankee - You decided to marry a local girl.

Somewhere in here the term "half-back" fits but I am not sure of the ordering.:lol:

All that being said, I wouldn't have it any other way. Now guess which one of the above I am.
 

papa bear

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
2,222
Location
mayberry, nc
a half back is one who moves to Fl because it's too d*** cold up north, and then when they get to Fl, It's too d*** hot . so, they move half way back. usually puts them in NC/ VA area

i was pulled a few years ago, and the officer asked if i knew why she pulled me over, and i told "her probably because she was a busy body and didn't have anything else to do". she ended up give my father (who was the passenger) a seat belt ticket, which some of the family friends threw out.

but i was pulled over recently by a city kitty b4 i could get across the VA line. when he found out i had a firearm which was setting in plain site (he had to ask). he told me he was going to get it for his safety and i said "no thank you. it is very safe right where it is". he then stated that he would return it. i said "right you are because that would be confiscation of property with out due process". of course i was smiling and being friendly all the time. he left it alone and gave me a warning. i would not have stopped him (though he couldn't have got the door open anyway), but i let him know that i did not consent. i don't get a lot of trouble from state police most of them say they don't care just leave your hands where they can see them.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
i was pulled a few years ago, and the officer asked if i knew why she pulled me over, and i told "her probably because she was a busy body and didn't have anything else to do". she ended up give my father (who was the passenger) a seat belt ticket, which some of the family friends threw out.
.

By Golly...you just moved up on the OC scale!:eek:

scale-4.jpg
 
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MagiK_SacK

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
257
Location
VA Beach, VA
You're right and I think BLK was talking in general.

I don't think we'll find a cite. Arrest is just a word and means a lot of things even among lawyers.
When you're stopped, you are being detained. You may be released or taken to see Bubba, but you are no longer free to come and go.

As far as reading your rights, there isn't a law that requires it. If they don't, they can't use anything you say as evidence against you (certain exemptions) but you can still be convicted based on other evidence.

For instance, a cop clocks you at 95 in a 35 MPH zone.
You're arrested and he doesn't read you your rights (and probably won't in that case).
It goes to court and your defense is he didn't read me my rights.
The case was based on the Radar and Officers observation, not your statements to the Officer.

You get to meet Bubba:uhoh:

I don't know if this is a valid cite but it sound's close. I'm no lawyer so I could be way out in left field here but I just wanted to share what I found. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+8.01-327.1

§ 8.01-327.1. Definition of "arrest under civil process".

The terms "arrest under civil process" and "civil arrest" shall be synonymous and shall be the apprehending and detaining of a person pursuant to specific provisions of this title to achieve the following:

1. A full and proper answer or response to interrogatories under § 8.01-506;

2. His obedience to the orders, judgments, and decrees of any court.
 

sawah

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
436
Location
Virginia
Some people just had a bad childhood, some like to sit in the left lane traveling 54mph with their coffee and danish (and probably an official license plate daring people to pass them), and some are just intolerant of others.

Anyone who has never traveled 1, yes 1 mph over the speed limit can toss a rock here, otherwise you too have broken the speed limit, and should also be in jail.

I'd agree with an 'it depends'.

1. If you go over the speed limit and endanger someone's life recklessly, then the number of MPH doesn't matter. So a person buzzing someone in a Walmart parking lot at 21mph should be arrested - though they probably thought it was funny at the time to make an old lady jump.
2. If it's 20mph over the speed limit, then it's reckless driving and it shows reckless disregard of other people's lives, disregard for the danger a 1-2 ton vehicle poses at speed. They have a reckless driving statute for a reason.
3. If it's only a few miles per hour over the limit and:
...a. the conditions are unsafe (such as icy roads), or
...b. they have an unsafe passenger - i.e. kid not in a seat, kids in the bed of a truck, other like things, then yes, they should be arrested.

But for only a few MPH over the limit when passing, when it's very safe conditions, then a ticket is sufficient. That's why that law is on the books.

So I think you're not reading my post correctly. I said "anyone who...20mph over" not any speeders.

HTH
 
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ManInBlack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
1,551
Location
SW Idaho
1. If you go over the speed limit and endanger someone's life recklessly, then the number of MPH doesn't matter. So a person buzzing someone in a Walmart parking lot at 21mph should be arrested - though they probably thought it was funny at the time to make an old lady jump.
2. If it's 20mph over the speed limit, then it's reckless driving and it shows reckless disregard of other people's lives, disregard for the danger a 1-2 ton vehicle poses at speed. They have a reckless driving statute for a reason.

See, this is where you go coo-coo for Coco Puffs.

You acknowledge that the amount of imminent danger posed to innocent third-parties should be the determining factor in government intervention, not whether or not an arbitrary "speed limit" was violated.

Then, you say that someone going equal to or greater than 20 miles per hour over the posted speed limit should be arrested, because it is automatically reckless. Well, there are several problems with your theory:
1) Speed limits are not always set correctly; i.e.: with a mind toward safe speed. Another poster posted a video which shows this.
2) Not all conditions are the same. Does going 20 over on four-lane highway in the middle of nowhere with no traffic automatically constitute "reckless disregard of other people's lives?" I submit that no reasonable person thinks so.
3) "They have the reckless driving statute for a reason." Really? Did "they" explain their reason to you, or do you just accept it on faith? Because the evidence appears to indicate that's bunkum in at least some circumstances. In at least some circumstances, it can be shown that exceeding an arbitrary speed limit by an arbitrary amount does not endanger the persons or property of others. It is, therefore, none of the government's damn business.
 
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MagiK_SacK

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
257
Location
VA Beach, VA
People that go 20mph over should have their licenses suspended and go to jail, IMO. You got off light. Slow it down.

I have to disagree with you as well on this subject. Is it reckless? Depending on the circumstances yes. As ManInBlack points out is going 40mph over on a dead empty four lane highway reckless? To my life sure, but to the general public no so that should not constitute jail or a horrific fine. What I really disagree with in that statement though is the go to jail part. I for one don't want my tax dollars going towards paying for somebody's room, and food. Let them get fined like hell and PAY for what they did. So maybe I wouldn't have to pay so much in taxes. As stated before though 'reckless' should be circumstantial. Who am I kidding though. That would only work in a perfect world where cops aren't out to get you....
 

protias

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
7,308
Location
SE, WI
I'd agree with an 'it depends'.

1. If you go over the speed limit and endanger someone's life recklessly, then the number of MPH doesn't matter. So a person buzzing someone in a Walmart parking lot at 21mph should be arrested - though they probably thought it was funny at the time to make an old lady jump.
2. If it's 20mph over the speed limit, then it's reckless driving and it shows reckless disregard of other people's lives, disregard for the danger a 1-2 ton vehicle poses at speed. They have a reckless driving statute for a reason.
3. If it's only a few miles per hour over the limit and:
...a. the conditions are unsafe (such as icy roads), or
...b. they have an unsafe passenger - i.e. kid not in a seat, kids in the bed of a truck, other like things, then yes, they should be arrested.

But for only a few MPH over the limit when passing, when it's very safe conditions, then a ticket is sufficient. That's why that law is on the books.

So I think you're not reading my post correctly. I said "anyone who...20mph over" not any speeders.

HTH

Have you ever driven in the desert? Doing 90 across this is nothing.

1.1287596284.desert-road.jpg


Or have you driven across the great planes? I have and you could fall asleep for a few hours and still be in your lane.
 

Motofixxer

Regular Member
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
965
Location
Somewhere over the Rainbow
"Where an individual is detained, without a warrant and without having committed a crime (traffic infractions are not crimes), the detention is a false arrest and false imprisonment." Damages Awarded: Trezevant v. City of Tampa, 241 F2d. 336 (11th CIR 1984)

...upon the rationale the Legislature did not intend to classify infractions as crimes People v. Sava (1987) 190 Cal. App.3d 935, 235 Cal.Rptr. 694 [No. D005040. Court of Appeals of California Fourth Appellate District, Division One, March 27, 1987.]

“Detentions are seizures...” People v. Verin (1990) 220 Cal. App.3d 551, 269 Cal,Rptr. 573 [No. A046244 Court of Appeals of California, First Appellate District, Division Four, May 17, 1990]

“It is true a temporary detention constitutes a seizure of the person subject to the constraints of the Fourth Amendment. (Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 16 [20 L. Ed. 2D 889, 902-903, 88 S.Ct 1868].)

A detention exists (1) when you assert authority over a person in a way that a reasonable innocent person would feel compelled to submit to and (2) the person in fact submits. (Hodari D. (1991) 499 U.S 621, 626, Cartwright (1999) 72 Cal. App.4th 1362, 1367, Turner (1994) 8 Cal.4th 137, 180.)

DETAIN: To retain as the possession of personalty. First Nat. Bank v. Yocom, 96 Or. 438, 189 P. 220, 221. To arrest, to check, to delay, to hinder, to hold, or keep in custody, to retard, to re strain from proceeding, to stay, to stop. People v. Smith, 17 Cal.App.2d 468, 62 P.2d 436, 438. (Blacks Law 4th Ed, Pg 535)

ARREST: To deprive a person of his liberty by legal authority. Taking, under real or assumed authority, custody of another for the purpose of holding or detaining him to answer a criminal charge or civil demand. Ex parte Sherwood, 29 Tex.App. 334, 15 S.W. 812. Physical seizure of person by arresting officer or submission to officer's authority and control is necessary to constitute an "arrest." Thompson v. Boston Pub. Co., 285 Mass. 344, 189 N.E. 210, 213. It is a restraints however slight, on another's liberty to come and go. Turney v. Rhodes, 42 Ga.App. 104, 155 S.E. 112. It is the taking, seizing or detaining the person of another, touching or putting hands upon him in the execution of process, or any act indicating an intention to arrest. U. S. v. Benner, Bald. 234, 239, Fed.Cas.No.14,568; State v. District Court of Eighth Judicial Dist. in and for Cascade County, 70 Mont. 378, 225 P. 1000, 1001; Hoppes v. State, 105 P.2d 433, 439, 70 Okl.Cr. 179.(Blacks Law 4th Ed, Pg 140)

By definition, a detention is an arrest.

WRECK-(Blacks Law Dict. 4th Ed, Pg 1783) To destroy, disable, or seriously damage.
Zohner v. Sierra Nevada Life and Casualty
Co., 114 Cal.App. 85, 299 P. 749, 751. To reduce to
a wreck or ruinous state by any kind of violence;
to overthrow, shatter, or destroy; to cause to
crash or suffer ruin, synonymous with ruin,
smash, and demolish. Its antonyms are save,
salvage, and preserve. Star Mfg. Co. v. Quarries,
172 Okl. 550, 46 P.2d 497, 498. Destruction, disorganization,
or serious injury of anything, especially
by violence. Houston Printing Co. v.
Hunter, Tex.Civ.App., 105 S.W.2d 312, 317.

Wreck-2. (Websters Dictionary) Destruction or injury of anything, especially by violence; ruin; as, the wreck of a railroad train.
The wreck of matter and the crush of worlds.

So by definition, there is nothing wreckless about "speeding" until you cause damage or injury.



RAS(Reasonable Articulated Suspicion, Detentions and Arrests)

Detentions and Arrests, info and definitions by cowboyridn

Detention descriptions, consensual and when to walk away. An informational read

3 Different levels of Police/Citizen encounters Explained

4th and 5th Amendment Resources by user Citizen

This section authorizes officers to demand identification only when a person is suspected of committing a crime, but does not govern the lawfulness of requests for identification in other circumstances. State v. Griffith, 2000 WI 72, 236 Wis. 2d 48, 613 N.W.2d 72, 98-0931.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1226046509410140751&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr
52 F.3d 194 UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. Coye Denise GREEN, Defendant-Appellant. No. 94-1675. United States Court of App

Regalado v. State, 25 So. 3d 600 - Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 4th Dist. 2009
"Despite the obvious potential danger to officers and the public by a person in possession of a concealed gun in a crowd, this is not illegal in Florida unless the person does not have a concealed weapons permit, a fact that an officer cannot glean by mere observation. Based upon our understanding of both Florida and United States Supreme Court precedent, stopping a person solely on the ground that the individual possesses a gun violates the Fourth Amendment."


In evaluating the validity of investigatory stops, we must consider the "totality of the circumstances--the whole picture." United States v. Sokolow, 490 U.S. 1, 8, 109 S.Ct. 1581, 1585, 104 L.Ed.2d 1 (1989) (quoting United States v. Cortez, 449 U.S. 411, 417, 101 S.Ct. 690, 695, 66 L.Ed.2d 621 (1981)). Reasonable suspicion must derive from more than an "inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or 'hunch.' " Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 27, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 1883, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968). Moreover, "[c]onduct typical of a broad category of innocent people provides a weak basis for suspicion." United States v. Weaver, 966 F.2d 391, 394 (8th Cir.) (quoting United States v. Crawford, 891 F.2d 680, 681 (8th Cir.1989)), cert. denied, --- U.S. ----, 113 S.Ct. 829, 121 L.Ed.2d 699 (1992).

A number of the factors relied upon by Carrill can be characterized as "conduct typical of a broad category of innocent people." Weaver, 966 F.2d at 394. We reject the notion that Green's travelling alone, carrying a small bag, wearing new and baggy clothes, and failing to make eye contact with Carrill, are in any way indicative of criminal activity. Thus, these factors cannot play a role in assessing the validity of the investigatory stop.

Under Florida v. J.L., an anonymous tip giving rise to reasonable suspicion must bear indicia of reliability. That the tipster's anonymity is placed at risk indicates that the informant is genuinely concerned and not a fallacious prankster. Corroborated aspects of the tip also lend credibility; the corroborated actions of the suspect need be inherently criminal in and of themselves., 2001 WI 21, 241 Wis. 2d 631, 623 N.W.2d 106, 96-1821. State v. Williams

An anonymous tip is not RAS

ID'ing yourself discussion




Any info listed is informational only and is not to be construed as any kind of advice.
 
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H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
Wisconsin Statutes §§ 345.22 & 345.23 Authority to arrest w/o warrant and actions

345.22 Authority to arrest without a warrant. A person
may be arrested without a warrant for the violation of a traffic regulation
if the traffic officer has reasonable grounds to believe that
the person is violating or has violated a traffic regulation.

345.23 Officer’s action after arrest without a warrant.
If a person is arrested without a warrant for the violation of a traffic
regulation, the arresting officer shall issue a citation under s.
345.11, and in addition:
(1) May release the person; or
(2) Shall release the person when he or she:
(a) Makes a deposit under s. 345.26; or
(c) Deposits the person’s valid Wisconsin operator’s license
with the officer. If the license is deposited with the officer, the officer
shall issue to the licensee a receipt which shall be valid as a
driver’s license through the date specified on the receipt, which
shall be the same as the court appearance date, and the officer
shall, at the earliest possible time prior to the court appearance
date, deposit the license with the court.
(d) Presents a guaranteed arrest bond certificate under s.
345.61.
(3) Shall, if the alleged violator is not released under sub. (1)
or (2), bring him or her without unreasonable delay before a judge
or, for ordinance violations, before a municipal judge in the
county in which the violation was alleged to have been committed.
(4) Shall, if the alleged violator is released under sub. (1) or
(2), specify on the citation a return date which may not be more
than 90 days after the issue date.
 

protias

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
7,308
Location
SE, WI
345.22 Authority to arrest without a warrant. A person
may be arrested without a warrant for the violation of a traffic regulation
if the traffic officer has reasonable grounds to believe that
the person is violating or has violated a traffic regulation.

345.23 Officer’s action after arrest without a warrant.
If a person is arrested without a warrant for the violation of a traffic
regulation, the arresting officer shall issue a citation under s.
345.11, and in addition:
(1) May release the person; or
(2) Shall release the person when he or she:
(a) Makes a deposit under s. 345.26; or
(c) Deposits the person’s valid Wisconsin operator’s license
with the officer. If the license is deposited with the officer, the officer
shall issue to the licensee a receipt which shall be valid as a
driver’s license through the date specified on the receipt, which
shall be the same as the court appearance date, and the officer
shall, at the earliest possible time prior to the court appearance
date, deposit the license with the court.
(d) Presents a guaranteed arrest bond certificate under s.
345.61.
(3) Shall, if the alleged violator is not released under sub. (1)
or (2), bring him or her without unreasonable delay before a judge
or, for ordinance violations, before a municipal judge in the
county in which the violation was alleged to have been committed.
(4) Shall, if the alleged violator is released under sub. (1) or
(2), specify on the citation a return date which may not be more
than 90 days after the issue date.

But that is WI law, not VA. It is good to know for some of us though.
 

MagiK_SacK

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
257
Location
VA Beach, VA
snip..

WRECK-(Blacks Law Dict. 4th Ed, Pg 1783) To destroy, disable, or seriously damage.
Zohner v. Sierra Nevada Life and Casualty
Co., 114 Cal.App. 85, 299 P. 749, 751. To reduce to
a wreck or ruinous state by any kind of violence;
to overthrow, shatter, or destroy; to cause to
crash or suffer ruin, synonymous with ruin,
smash, and demolish. Its antonyms are save,
salvage, and preserve. Star Mfg. Co. v. Quarries,
172 Okl. 550, 46 P.2d 497, 498. Destruction, disorganization,
or serious injury of anything, especially
by violence. Houston Printing Co. v.
Hunter, Tex.Civ.App., 105 S.W.2d 312, 317.

Wreck-2. (Websters Dictionary) Destruction or injury of anything, especially by violence; ruin; as, the wreck of a railroad train.
The wreck of matter and the crush of worlds.

So by definition, there is nothing wreckless about "speeding" until you cause damage or injury.


snip

This may be true if it were spelled 'wreckless'. Unfortunately that is not the case it is spelled reckless and is defined as such:

reck·less
   
adjective

1.
utterly unconcerned about the consequences of some action; without caution; careless (usually followed by of ): to be reckless of danger.
2.
characterized by or proceeding from such carelessness: reckless extravagance.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reckless
 

ManInBlack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
1,551
Location
SW Idaho
WRECK-(Blacks Law Dict. 4th Ed, Pg 1783) To destroy, disable, or seriously damage.
Zohner v. Sierra Nevada Life and Casualty
Co., 114 Cal.App. 85, 299 P. 749, 751. To reduce to
a wreck or ruinous state by any kind of violence;
to overthrow, shatter, or destroy; to cause to
crash or suffer ruin, synonymous with ruin,
smash, and demolish. Its antonyms are save,
salvage, and preserve. Star Mfg. Co. v. Quarries,
172 Okl. 550, 46 P.2d 497, 498. Destruction, disorganization,
or serious injury of anything, especially
by violence. Houston Printing Co. v.
Hunter, Tex.Civ.App., 105 S.W.2d 312, 317.

Wreck-2. (Websters Dictionary) Destruction or injury of anything, especially by violence; ruin; as, the wreck of a railroad train.
The wreck of matter and the crush of worlds.

So by definition, there is nothing wreckless about "speeding" until you cause damage or injury.


Lol...right end, wrong means. But thanks, I needed that today.

As to the rest of your post, that is great information; thank you for sharing it.
 

Motofixxer

Regular Member
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
965
Location
Somewhere over the Rainbow
This may be true if it were spelled 'wreckless'. Unfortunately that is not the case it is spelled reckless and is defined as such:


reck·less
   
adjective

1.
utterly unconcerned about the consequences of some action; without caution; careless (usually followed by of ): to be reckless of danger.
2.
characterized by or proceeding from such carelessness: reckless extravagance.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reckless


Sorry I missed my ginseng vitamins this morning. As you can tell, I have never gotten anything "reckless", but apparently you have :banana:



How can one prove that an individual was unconcerned, or without caution? I don't know anyone that intends to inflict injury while driving.

RECKLESS- Not reeking; careless, heedless, inattentive; indifferent to consequences. According to circumstances it may mean desperately heedless, wanton or willful, or it may mean only careless, inattentive, or negligent. People v. Sweet,
130 Misc.Rep. 612, 225 N.Y.S. 182, 183.(Blacks Law 4th ed, Pg 1435)

RECKLESS DRIVING- Operation of automobile manifesting reckless disregard of possible consequences and indifference to others' rights. People v. Whitby, 44 N.Y.S.2d 76, 77. (Blacks Law 4th ed, Pg 1435)

How can one prove that an individual was unconcerned, or without caution? I don't know anyone that intends to inflict injury while driving. Or disregards the consequences, but there is danger in everything yet, we still choose to perform the particular act. Just a guess, but it would probably be easy to beat. But you may not beat the ride :cool:


But anyway in an effort to not derail the thread any longer, I'm going to discontinue the current discussion so we can hopefully stay on topic.
 
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