Stunning news regarding the Manchin-Toomey substitute amendment

[marshaul]

Presume you read the links. It does not say "fee paid to the government". No FFL is going to do the BGC free. Were this bill to pass, the action required would cause a user fee/cost to be incurred by the gun purchaser that is not now paid by private sales. BTW - I am not saying that I agree or disagree with this thinking, only reporting some of the considerations on the table.

Additionally, what happens to a 19 yo person's gun when he wants to sell it, consigns it to an FFL (that's a transfer) and it doesn't sell or not offered enough? To return it to the original owner is impossible as federal rules/law say that only 21 and up can "buy" a gun from an FFL. The FFL has no way to legally get the gun back to the original owner.

This bill has many nicks and cuts in it. I'm inclined to think that Allen's team rushed to try to get some improvements w/o having the time to fully vent the myriad problems (hidden traps) it contains. We all should learn a lesson from this.

Yeah, but their whole argument is based on the Constitution, which is fairly specific about revenue raising

All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

A private FFL charging a fee is not the same thing as government raising revenue. Maybe the rule should apply to both, but from a government who claims the commerce clause authorizes Federal usurpation of criminal law, don't count on it.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Yeah, but their whole argument is based on the Constitution, which is fairly specific about revenue raising



A private FFL charging a fee is not the same thing as government raising revenue. Maybe the rule should apply to both, but from a government who claims the commerce clause authorizes Federal usurpation of criminal law, don't count on it.

Actually it does raise federal revenue, because it forces citizens to use a service that they must pay a fee for, and that fee is taxed by the IRS. It may be a small fee, 15 to 39% depending on the FFL income, but a revenue none the less. I would imagine this is the argument the house will make.

 

[ron73440]

This bill has many nicks and cuts in it. I'm inclined to think that Allen's team rushed to try to get some improvements w/o having the time to fully vent the myriad problems (hidden traps) it contains. We all should learn a lesson from this.

The lesson we need to learn is that our govt is jacked up.

Given the plethora of poorly written and hastily voted on bills that have been rushed through, however, I don't think they will change until more Americans get educated on the monstrosity that our govt has become.

 

[rushcreek2]

.....and picking up a $ 20 bill left laying on the FFL's counter is going to be reported to the IRS as "income", an " expense", or a "gift" ???

I don't see the inevitability of the federal government becoming a holder in due course on this one.

 

[Right Wing Wacko]

The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms has withdrawn its support for the Manchin-Toomey alternative background check measure because a key amendment for restoration of firearms rights is not being considered.http://www.ccrkba.org/?p=3222

 

[F350]

The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms has withdrawn its support for the Manchin-Toomey alternative background check measure because a key amendment for restoration of firearms rights is not being considered.http://www.ccrkba.org/?p=3222

That or they caught enough flack from members like me; I will have to settle down before I decide but I may let my membership expire and make an extra donation to Gun Owners of America instead.

 

[WalkingWolf]

That or they caught enough flack from members like me; I will have to settle down before I decide but I may let my membership expire and make an extra donation to Gun Owners of America instead.

I am betting it is more from the flack, sorta why the NRA is no longer supporting background checks.

 

[TFred]

The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms has withdrawn its support for the Manchin-Toomey alternative background check measure because a key amendment for restoration of firearms rights is not being considered.http://www.ccrkba.org/?p=3222

That or they caught enough flack from members like me; I will have to settle down before I decide but I may let my membership expire and make an extra donation to Gun Owners of America instead.

I am betting it is more from the flack, sorta why the NRA is no longer supporting background checks.

Gottlieb took the convenient excuse to "get the heck outta Dodge" with this one!

TFred

 

[slapmonkay]

Motion fails for this amendment.

Source: Live Senate Feed.

Vote: 54 - 46

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/...und-check-compromise-falls-6-votes-short?lite

 

[TFred]

Motion fails for this amendment.

Source: Live Senate Feed.

First one I found:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...uns-background-checks-manchin-senate/2090105/

TFred

ETA: From the linked story, it astounds me that the media is STILL reporting this as if these bills would have ANY affect at all on future murderers. Utter propaganda:

"The Senate rejected a compromise proposal to expand background checks on gun purchases, dealing a blow to the core of legislative efforts to curb massacres such as the one at a Connecticut school in December."

 

[nonameisgood]

First one I found:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...uns-background-checks-manchin-senate/2090105/

TFred

ETA: From the linked story, it astounds me that the media is STILL reporting this as if these bills would have ANY affect at all on future murderers. Utter propaganda:

"The Senate rejected a compromise proposal to expand background checks on gun purchases, dealing a blow to the core of legislative efforts to curb massacres such as the one at a Connecticut school in December."

Compromise... "You use that word. I do not think that means what you think it means."
The word means that I am willing to give a little to get a little, but what I see is that I have, and they don't have, so they want me to give, without giving something in return. Oddly enough, a quote from former London police commander, Bob Broadhurst, today in reference to the Boston bombing and the upcoming London marathon, seems appropriate: "... the price you pay in a free society for allowing free movement is that you are vulnerable to the kind of heinous people that want to do the kind of attacks that they've done in Boston." (on PRI's The World program)

 

[Grapeshot]

Shot down in flames - crashed and burned - and with bi-partisan support against it too.

Great job and congratulations to all that fought so hard on this one.

Can't sit back and rest though, there are other battles to be engaged.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Shot down in flames - crashed and burned - and with bi-partisan support against it too.

Great job and congratulations to all that fought so hard on this one.

Can't sit back and rest though, there are other battles to be engaged.

Absolutely, remember we set back Obama on his health care, and he would not let go. He will keep trying, we blinked on Obama care we cannot blink again.

 

[zack991]

HERE IS THE LIST OF THE TRAITORS WHO SAID YES. TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE.

Yea but we now need to hold the NRA accountable. So when is the NRA going to down grade those Dem and Rep who supported this bill. They have the votes now they claim they needed. No more excuses. I have given more to the NRA than I could to afford to help fight this bill, so when are those traitors going to be held accountable by the NRA? Now don't let the NRA off the hook not dropping them all to a F.


This is one thing the NRA posted on their face book reply to a member.

"And the NRA supported McCain in 08. And Romney in 12'. Both of these candidates supported crap like this. McCain voted today in favor, and Romney as Governor. Not to mention protection for ALL our Constitutional amendments!"


NRA's response
Given what we were up against, I think it was the rational choice.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Graham and McCain always have been progressives.

 

[ADobbs1989]

HERE IS THE LIST OF THE TRAITORS WHO SAID YES. TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE.

Yea but we now need to hold the NRA accountable. So when is the NRA going to down grade those Dem and Rep who supported this bill. They have the votes now they claim they needed. No more excuses. I have given more to the NRA than I could to afford to help fight this bill, so when are those traitors going to be held accountable by the NRA? Now don't let the NRA off the hook not dropping them all to a F.


This is one thing the NRA posted on their face book reply to a member.

"And the NRA supported McCain in 08. And Romney in 12'. Both of these candidates supported crap like this. McCain voted today in favor, and Romney as Governor. Not to mention protection for ALL our Constitutional amendments!"


NRA's response
Given what we were up against, I think it was the rational choice.

How can this be right? If they had 63 yes's wouldn't the bill have passed?

 

[Grapeshot]

The above list does not contain any identifying data as which amendment or bill to which it applies.

It is my understanding that all amendments to this bill were defeated.

 

[eye95]

I suspect the above vote was the vote to allow debate to begin, not on any of the votes on the amendments.

 

[slapmonkay]

How can this be right? If they had 63 yes's wouldn't the bill have passed?

I suspect the above vote was the vote to allow debate to begin, not on any of the votes on the amendments.

Correct. +1

It is my understanding that all amendments to this bill were defeated.

Your correct, all amendments were rejected.

 

[Grapeshot]

The above list does not contain any identifying data as which amendment or bill to which it applies.

It is my understanding that all amendments to this bill were defeated.

I suspect the above vote was the vote to allow debate to begin, not on any of the votes on the amendments.

Correct. +1

--snip--

That being the case, it is hardly correct to call all of these traitors to our cause.

An example would be Sen. Warner from Va. who voted "Nay" straight down the line. He deserves an "atta-boy" for listening to the voters from his state.

Sen. Timmy Kaine not so much a good listener - in fact I'm told he turns off his voice mail when he leaves for the day.