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Sterling Costco Shooting ruled justified

marshaul

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Which means we should see examples of better conditions abounding. After all, there is no shortage of places in the world which are, de facto, anarchist societies for lack of functioning governments.

No, that's not what it means. First of all, your definition of "functioning government" (whatever it may be) is question-begging. Secondly, the assertion has never been that "lack of functioning government" is always, automatically perfect. The assertion is that government at worst takes credit for pre-existing or spontaneous and self-sustaining social order, rights enforcement mechanisms, etc, and at best co-opts these things. Which means, were I to address your "challenge" on its own merit, I would be adopting a straw man which is wholly yours to own.

In the spirit of honest dialectic (which I am under no illusion you're actually interested in), I'll freely admit that the examples of working anarchy of which I am aware pre-date any useful conception of "mental health" at all, and so this particular issue is something we have to address do novo. Of course that cuts both ways, so it's equally impossible to defend with precedent the argument that governance (as opposed to its absence) has led to improvement in "mental health".

Also, you've been for some time now harping on what is nothing more than a modified appeal to tradition, which might have emotional weight to those (like you) who possess undue attachment to the past, but has no inherent logical merit. The US experiment was novel enough compared to even the Greek and Roman systems which inspired it that countless detractors asserted it wouldn't work because "it had never happened before", and yet here we are, with a system we all agree is better than anything which came before it, and which would not exist had arguments like yours been allowed to carry the day. (I want everyone reading this to think about that for a moment.)

Well, some of us are ready to move into the next stage of human political evolution. Or we would be, if political troglodytes like you weren't holding us back thanks to your blind fear of uncharted waters. And the sad part is, those of us worth listening to aren't demanding (and in fact would oppose) violent revolution. We would begin the process with a rather non-sea-changing reduction of government's scope, followed by its gradual elimination from various facets of life, one after the other, until (hopefully) none is deemed necessary and so none remains. But no, you find that worthy and flailing and teeth-gnashing, because Fear, and God forbid people have coitus in the park.

Color me unimpressed.
 
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SovereigntyOrDeath

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Criticizing and second guessing cops for using deadly force when its use is legally justified undermines legitimate criticism IMO.

Wow!!!!!!:shocker:

Legally justified??????

So violating a human beings right to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is justified? You claim to be a Constitutionalist?

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

"All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void." Marbury v. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is a well-known phrase in the United States Declaration of Independence. The phrase gives three examples of the "unalienable rights" which the Declaration says has been given to all human beings by their Creator, and for which governments are created to protect.

How is that for legitimate criticism for ya?

Funny, I can't find anywhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that give LEO's the duty to be judge, jury, and executioner.
 
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WalkingWolf

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No, brother. As two strict constitutionalists, we both want the same government. The BoR imposes certain limits on government, no doubt. But it also contains some implicit powers of government.

For example, the 4th amendment prohibits "unreasonable" searches and seizures, thus implicitly permitting "reasonable" searches and seizures. It explicitly allows the issuance of warrants to search and seize as long as certain conditions are met.

The 5th amendment allows government to hold people for capital and other infamous crimes so long as certain conditions are met. This is an implicit admission that government can impose capital punishment, as well for what is a "capital crime" except one for which the punishment is death?

The 8th amendment implicitly allows for the imposition of fines and penalties, so long as they are not excessive nor cruel and unusual.

The 13th amendment grants government power to prevent slavery. The 14th amendment grants the federal government power to enforce the bill of rights against the States.

Article 1, Sec 8 grants Congress power to grant to authors and inventors exclusive rights to their works and inventions for some limited time. This limits your ability to use someone else's written words, inventions, etc.

As a self-professed strict constitutionalists, you and I are brothers, brother. We support a federal government with certain powers. In the definition of the anarchists, you and I are both "statists".

It is good to have you on board, my statist brother.

Charles

I am not your brother, and no we both do not want the same government. I want a government that is responsible to the people they are supposed to serve. YOU want something completely different from that.
 

marshaul

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Charles has evidently not bothered to expose himself to No Treason (a worthy piece of argumentation, whichever side of its conclusion you fall on when the dust settles).

I can be an anarchist and still demand that government abide by the Constitution which engendered it. The Constitution does not bind me, but it sure as hell ought to bind those who sign on to legislate and execute acts of government. Otherwise, what leg have they to stand on at all?
 
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marshaul

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So no credit at all for the cops attempting to use less than lethal force (the taser) and resorting to firearms only when that failed?

It is as if you will, actually criticize every shooting by a cop.

I won't criticize cops for a legally justified shoot, especially not after trying non-lethal means. If a cop can end such a case non-lethally, props to him. But I won't criticize him should he make a legally supportable decision to use deadly force in such cases.

Credit is irrelevant. I'm not speaking about the individual officers or their motivations, I'm speaking to the training they receive and the policies they are expected to abide by. I believe I was quite clear on that point. I will note, however, another instance of your ably bashing a straw man of your own creation.

Really? People who have never handled a gun call the cops assuming cops won't use guns? Talk about pipe dreams. Even in Utah, only 10% of our adult population have permits to carry. That is one of the higher rates in the nation. From my time in Arizona rates of persons OCing come no where close to that and I doubt CCing has increased all that much even under constitutional carry.

People call cops to stop criminals or resolve problems. They give very little thought to how the cops might do that or else they would not call the cops in certain cases (suicidal family member for example).

You're right that folks undoubtedly don't give due consideration to the consequences of calling the police, but it simply does not follow from that that we, as a society and employers of the police, therefore expect them to go to the gun before exhausting all other possible options.

The tenor of comments surrounding shootings like this increasingly supports my contention (which you've done nothing to rebut other than throw red herrings at): people either A: assume a squad of trained professionals accustomed to physical altercation will exhaust non-lethal options before going to the gun, or B: want them to begin doing so. Folks who blindly apologize for every police shooting are increasingly in the minority in the last couple years.

When a nut case with a knife can't be talked down and isn't stopped by a taser, the shoot is legit no matter how regrettable.

Subtle yet intentional conflation of "legal" with "desirable" caused by your use of the vague "legit" noted.

My argument stands.

The "dismantling" was and is a figment of your very creative imagination.
As evidenced by the convincing array of non-fallacious rebuttals you've proffered, amirite? :lol:
 

Fenris

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1. How does this relate to OC, other than the OCing of edged weapons in the hand while threatening people?

2. Throwing a blanket and then going hands on would be monumentally stupid. You wouldn't be able to see where the knife was until it came through the blanket and eviscerated you. Plus you would have to get really close to get that blanket thrown over them.

3. Attempting to ram with a shopping cart would be monumentally stupid. If the subject stepped around the cart, they could close the distance between in less than a second, and open you up from port to starboard.

4. Just because a subject is small, female, crazy, etc doesn't mean that they can't go all Benihana on you.

5. Clue for the clueless, if you don't go around threatening other people's lives, you will reduce your chances of being shot by the police, or by those legally carrying for self defense.

6. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
 
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marshaul

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definitely not Primus said:
1. How does this relate to OC, other than the OCing of edged weapons in the hand while threatening people?

2. Throwing a blanket and then going hands on would be monumentally stupid. You wouldn't be able to see where the knife was until it came through the blanket and eviscerated you. Plus you would have to get really close to get that blanket thrown over them.

3. Attempting to ram with a shopping cart would be monumentally stupid. If the subject stepped around the cart, they could close the distance between in less than a second, and open you up from port to starboard.

4. Just because a subject is small, female, crazy, etc doesn't mean that they can't go all Benihana on you.

5. Clue for the clueless, if you don't go around threatening other people's lives, you will reduce your chances of being shot by the police, or by those legally carrying for self defense.

6. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

I agree with everything you said, but it doesn't change the fact that we can, in my opinion should, and in my estimation generally do (or at least are seriously beginning to), expect police to exhaust every possibility before shooting a citizen.

I notice they didn't even bother with OC, despite the numerous studies which have demonstrated that pepper spray is more effective than tasers (yes, pepper spray can blow back on the user, but it's highly unlikely to incapacitate an entire squad of officers).

And what about beanbags? We've all seen cops heroically beanbag James Boyd's lifeless corpse, but apparently they're not quite heroic enough to use them on a still-living 5' woman before mercilessly gunning her down.

I'm sure if your job depended on it, you could come up with about a dozen viable alternatives you could use if you weren't allowed to shoot. And I'm not even saying you shouldn't be allowed to shoot. I'm just saying you should try those alternatives first, or else you should stay home, because your job has become worthless and we don't need it.


ETA: I just noticed that wasn't Primus I was responding to. :lol: Let's just pretend it was, since Primus would say the same things anyway.
 
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WalkingWolf

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I agree with everything you said, but it doesn't change the fact that we can, in my opinion should, and in my estimation generally do (or at least are seriously beginning to), expect police to exhaust every possibility before shooting a citizen.

I notice they didn't even bother with OC, despite the numerous studies which have demonstrated that pepper spray is more effective than tasers (yes, pepper spray can blow back on the user, but it's highly unlikely to incapacitate an entire squad of officers).

And what about beanbags? We've all seen cops heroically beanbag James Boyd's lifeless corpse, but apparently they're not quite heroic to use them on a still-living 5' woman before mercilessly gunning her down.

I'm sure if your job depended on it, you could come up with about a dozen viable alternatives you could use if you weren't allowed to shoot. And I'm not even saying you shouldn't be allowed to shoot. I'm just saying you should try those alternatives first, or else you should stay home, because your job has become worthless and we don't need it.


ETA: I just noticed that wasn't Primus I was responding to. :lol: Let's just pretend it was, since Primus would say the same things anyway.

And those officers are going to be prosecuted for murder, almost the exact same situation.
 

utbagpiper

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You're right that folks undoubtedly don't give due consideration to the consequences of calling the police, but it simply does not follow from that that we, as a society and employers of the police, therefore expect them to go to the gun before exhausting all other possible options.

And I believe that use of a taser after attempting to talk someone down shows a good faith effort to avoid deadly force. Lacking evidence that deadly force was used prematurely, I will give the officers the same benefit of the doubt I would want if facing someone who expressed intent to harm me with a knife well inside the Tueller distance.

You are, of course perfectly free to hold them to some much different standard if you wish. I simply disagree.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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I am not your brother, and no we both do not want the same government. I want a government that is responsible to the people they are supposed to serve. YOU want something completely different from that.

No need to be humble. Of course you are my brother. My brother in supporting limited government power as properly delegated via the Constitution. We are, by your own assertion, fellow strict constitutionalists. Which means we are both "statists" so far as the anarchists are concerned. Any disagreement between us is probably minimal and based on honest misunderstanding.

Welcome aboard my brother. It is good to have someone else who supports the constitution.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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No need to be humble. Of course you are my brother. My brother in supporting limited government power as properly delegated via the Constitution. We are, by your own assertion, fellow strict constitutionalists. Which means we are both "statists" so far as the anarchists are concerned. Any disagreement between us is probably minimal and based on honest misunderstanding.

Welcome aboard my brother. It is good to have someone else who supports the constitution.

Charles

Please stop insulting me? I am sure by now you know claiming we are of the same lineage I consider a insult.
 
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utbagpiper

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No, that's not what it means. First of all, your definition of "functioning government" (whatever it may be) is question-begging. Secondly, the assertion has never been that "lack of functioning government" is always, automatically perfect.

What? How can that be? In the absence of government all you have is lack of government. Anarchy is anarchy, right? If government is worse than anarchy in every case, then anarchy is better govern

, I'll freely admit that the examples of working anarchy of which I am aware pre-date any useful conception of "mental health" at all, and so this particular issue is something we have to address do novo.

How refreshing to see you actually admit that there are no current examples of anarchy "working". And what exactly do you suppose keeps anarchy from "working" even in regions where there is no government to prevent it from working? In other words, what is the evidence that it would ever work?

The US experiment was novel enough compared to even the Greek and Roman systems which inspired it that countless detractors asserted it wouldn't work because "it had never happened before", and yet here we are, with a system we all agree is better than anything which came before it, and which would not exist had arguments like yours been allowed to carry the day.

I appreciate the concession (however unintentional) that our constitutional form of government IS better than the Articles of Confederation and any examples of ancient anarchy of which you are aware.

But far more importantly, to claim that our system is so novel as to be something brand new is a claim only one largely ignorant of history could make with a straight face. Our constitutional system of government was built upon some 500 years of increasing self-governance and representation under British law starting with Magna Carta. Extending the franchise, representation, and rights to all (free)men rather than limiting such benefits to nobility only was a rather modest step forward. Not to mention drawing upon those parts of classical Greek and Roman law, plus (then) contemporary Swiss democracy with a few undemocratic tweaks to limit the power of the mob. Throw in a few expedient compromises to get both large and small States, as well as Northern and Southern States to sign on and our system was not nearly as novel as you would claim.

And yet, for drawing upon all that it did, it is still a miracle it worked rather than devolving into some kind of monarchy, or into a blood bath as did the French Revolution.

As I've noted, Marxism offers some great promise. So too did 19th century voluntary Utopianism that predated Marx. Marxism has been responsible for human suffering and death than every other philosophy in the history of the world. And other than a few small, highly homogeneous, generally highly religious groups, Utopianism has been an utter failure.

Well, some of us are ready to move into the next stage of human political evolution. Or we would be, if political troglodytes like you weren't holding us back thanks to your blind fear of uncharted waters. And the sad part is, those of us worth listening to aren't demanding (and in fact would oppose) violent revolution. We would begin the process with a rather non-sea-changing reduction of government's scope, followed by its gradual elimination from various facets of life, one after the other, until (hopefully) none is deemed necessary and so none remains. But no, you find that worthy and flailing and teeth-gnashing, because Fear, and God forbid people have coitus in the park.

I think you are becoming rather emotive. Else you'd recall that not only am I not standing in your way, but as a strict constitutionalist and believer in federalism, I would be quite supportive if your State were to adopt the most libertarian government that could still qualify as a "Republican form of government" as required under the constitution and then in turn your community adopted a full out anarchist society. I would be thrilled for such a thing to take place in your community and State. The rest of the nation could watch and see how well things worked out and then either follow suite if the promised benefits materialize, or, save 280 million persons a lot of heartache when your non-system is short on promised blessing and long on problems tht were never supposed to be.

I make no bones about my personal preference for a socially conservative society with far more rules than you think necessary, proper, or appropriate. So you'll understand I won't actively assist you in advancing an anarchist society. But I certainly won't stand in your way as long as you pick anyplace other than Utah to run your experiment. And upon strong evidence that it is working well, I may have to eat crow and my hat and follow your lead. OTOH, I reserve the right to decide that even if you think it is working well for you and yours, I may still prefer something a little different for me and mine. I think freedom means allowing different States and different communities to order themselves as they see fit, so long as certain, fundamental, enumerated rights are respected.

So, rather than attacking me with names like "troglodyte" you should spend your energy providing the nation and world with an example of how well your preferred social order works.....especially since you concede that there are exactly ZERO examples of any "working anarchy" in the world today despite lots of regions of the world where there is no government for all intents and purposes and thus there is, anarchy.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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Statism

The political expression of altruism is collectivism or statism, which holds that man’s life and work belong to the state—to society, to the group, the gang, the race, the nation—and that the state may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good.


Ayn Rand
 

JoeSparky

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Let me see----

Would I be justified in using force that might raise to the level of lethal force if faced with a woman armed with a large (relative term) and a pair of scissors who was acting strangely and then choose to run at me?

Yep, I would be--- so why not the police in this situation?

Can't have it both ways here---- we all have the right to defense of self or none of us do!

Now, I will question if the officer should have fired even though it was legally justified for the officer to defend himself using this potentially lethal level of force as there were other persons in the background--- another officer running with the woman but somewhat behind her in an effort to keep the taser prongs in place.

Glad the taser officer only got hit by one of the five rounds fired.

Sad for anyone to lose their life but if one chooses to be the armed aggressor--- one takes the risks associated with it!
 

utbagpiper

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Please stop insulting me? I am sure by now you know claiming we are of the same lineage I consider a insult.

I think you've previously demonstrated that you believe the proper response to such a request is something to the effect of "Lighten up, Francis." :) (Forgive me for not embedding the same video clip.)

"My brother" has never been an insult. There is no insult in one strict constitutionalist finding common cause with another strict constitutonalist. We are brothers in defense of the constitution against both anarchists and against government agents who would exceed their proper authority. And to Marshaul, that makes us both "statists". We both recognize that government does have some legitimate powers, however limited.

I'm sure you're far too rational, thoughtful, and intelligent to let minor personality conflicts deter you from embracing a working political relationship with someone who agrees with your self-stated position of being a strict constitutionalist. You are a strict constitutionalist, aren't you?

And besides, isn't it refreshing for you to see that some people "have what it takes to pull the trigger" as opposed to idiot "heroes" in rural Utah?

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Statism

The political expression of altruism is collectivism or statism, which holds that man’s life and work belong to the state—to society, to the group, the gang, the race, the nation—and that the state may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good.

A great definition that describes neither you nor I. I'm glad to see you use it against Marshaul's improper labeling of both of us as statists.

It is true that if we don't hang together, we shall surely hang separately.

Thank you, my brother, for defending both of us from such unjust insults from the anarchists.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Kill all those crazy people, they deserve it!

The crazy people don't deserve to die.

But innocent people do deserve to defend themselves even if their assailants are crazy....and even if the innocent persons happen to cops.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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I think you've previously demonstrated that you believe the proper response to such a request is something to the effect of "Lighten up, Francis." :) (Forgive me for not embedding the same video clip.)

"My brother" has never been an insult. There is no insult in one strict constitutionalist finding common cause with another strict constitutonalist. We are brothers in defense of the constitution against both anarchists and against government agents who would exceed their proper authority. And to Marshaul, that makes us both "statists". We both recognize that government does have some legitimate powers, however limited.

I'm sure you're far too rational, thoughtful, and intelligent to let minor personality conflicts deter you from embracing a working political relationship with someone who agrees with your self-stated position of being a strict constitutionalist. You are a strict constitutionalist, aren't you?

And besides, isn't it refreshing for you to see that some people "have what it takes to pull the trigger" as opposed to idiot "heroes" in rural Utah?

Charles

When it is between you and I it clearly is, and it is without a doubt one of your passive aggressive attempts, which you are famous for.
 
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