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State Preempted Roaonke County Code

Sesrun

Regular Member
Joined
May 4, 2011
Messages
84
Location
Roanoke, VA
Received this morning:

Dear Real Name:
The demands of other higher priority items have taken precedence over responding to your inquiries. I hope that you have not been unduly inconvenienced.

This office had carefully considered the legislation adopted by the Virginia General Assembly, and analyzed that legislation with reference to existing County Code provisions. In March of 2008 we recommended that the Board of Supervisors consider an amendment to Section 15-8 of the Roanoke County Code to bring it in to compliance with Section 15.2-915 of the Code of Virginia. The Board accepted our recommendation and adopted Ordinance #032508-7. This amendment cured any infirmity.

I respectfully decline to provide an exhaustive listing of all of the existing provisions within the Code of Virginia that expressly address or relate to firearms. I fear that by inadvertently overlooking one such provision, I would mislead you. The most obvious and common example of such a provision is a domestic violence protective order.

The Board of Supervisors is sworn to uphold both the U.S. and Virginia Constitutions. And it is also responsible to protect the public health, welfare and safety of our citizens. In balancing these obligations, it has struck a rational and lawful balance through its ordinances and policies. I appreciate your concerns for the County's taxpayers' dollars. Our police officers are well-trained and knowledgeable concerning the law. Their training and experience substantially reduces, if not eliminates, the vulnerabilities you fear.

Paul M. Mahoney
Roanoke County Attorney

Just for reference here is what he is referring to:

The original Sec 15-8 Item #6 stated:
Hunting and firearms. Hunt, trap or pursue wildlife at any time. Trapping may be authorized, by permit, when it is deemed by the Director that said activity is in the best interest of public health, safety and/or welfare. No person shall within a park use, carry or possess firearms of any description, or air rifles, spring guns, bow and arrows, slings or any other forms of weapons potentially dangerous to wildlife and to human safety or any instrument that can be loaded with and fire blank cartridges, or any kind of trapping device. Shooting into park areas from beyond park property boundaries is forbidden.

Ordinance #032508-7 amended the following:
The Director may permit authorization for the use of a firearm or other potentially dangerous instrument, to be used in a park for a special event or county managed activity

Still does not satisfy... I'll keep working.

No progress with him and he still does not understand. I suppose it is time for a call to the Commonwealth's Attorney.
 
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user

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,516
Location
Northern Piedmont
Ruger, my dog, says, Grrrrrr!!! Woof!!! Woof!!! Grrrrr!!! ("Unchain me; I wanna bite'em!! Let me at'em!!!")

Actually he's not much on biting. But I am.

I always say, the best demand letter is a summons to answer a civil complaint. Anything else can be safely ignored; a conventional "lawyer letter" means, "I really don't intend to do anything, this is just a bluff - if I meant to take action, I'd have done it already.", and can be safely trashed.

Like Archimedes said, "Give me a plaintiff and a place to stand..."
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Received this morning:



Just for reference here is what he is referring to:

The original Sec 15-8 Item #6 stated:


Ordinance #032508-7 amended the following:


Still does not satisfy... I'll keep working.

No progress with him and he still does not understand. I suppose it is time for a call to the Commonwealth's Attorney.

I'd recommend an OC picnic in their park - invite the media. :lol:
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
The man is obviously beyond logical thinking, but were one to tread down that road... I think I'd reply with something like "Sir, there are many staunchly anti-gun jurisdictions in the state of Virginia, don't you think that even one of those might be so inclined to have imposed local ordinances similar to yours, if they would pass the legal tests you seem to put your faith in?"

Seems like it's time to turn them over to the VCDL hounds...

TFred
 

Sesrun

Regular Member
Joined
May 4, 2011
Messages
84
Location
Roanoke, VA
Back to the grinding stone of trying to get a straight answer & correction out of Roanoke County...

Sent moments ago...
Mr. Mahoney,

What specific State Statute "expressly authorizes" Roanoke County Ordinance 15-8 Item #6?

For example Code of Virginia § 29.1-526 "Counties and cities may prohibit hunting or trapping near primary and secondary highways" "expressly authorizes" Roanoke County Ordinance 13-5.2 "Prohibiting hunting or trapping near primary and secondary highways."

In our original correspondence you stated that in regards to Roanoke County's Ordinance Section 15-8 Item #6 that "the Virginia Code section 15.2-915 to which you make reference makes specific exception for local ordinances relating to firearms which are expressly authorized by state statute." I would like to know what specific state statute it is that you use to justify this County Ordinance.

Roanoke County Ordinance 15-8 Item #6 specifically states "...No person shall within a park use, carry or possess firearms, ammunition or combinations thereof, as expressly prohibited by statute, or air rifles, spring guns, pellet guns, paintball guns, bow and arrows, slings or any other forms of weapons potentially dangerous to wildlife and to human safety or any instrument that can be loaded with and fire blank cartridges, or any kind of trapping device."

According to my extensive research there is no state statute that authorizes Counties, Cities, or Towns to prohibit the carry of firearms in parks. If an authorizing statute does not exist then Roanoke County Ordinance 15-8 Item #6 is invalid according to the Code of Virginia section 15.2-915 paragraph B (http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915).

Please let me know what specific State Statute "expressly authorizes" Roanoke County Ordinance 15-8 Item #6 and if such an authorizing statute does not exist then what will be done to correct Roanoke County's code. I look forward to and appreciate your swift reply.

Respectfully,
{Sesrun}
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Back to the grinding stone of trying to get a straight answer & correction out of Roanoke County...

Sent moments ago...
Perhaps it's soon time to stop waiting for the tooth to be plucked from the chicken's beak, and reply back that you appreciate his effort, and you will now be reporting Roanoke County to the VCDL as defiantly non-compliant with 15.2-915, and that further action will be contemplated by the VCDL litigation experts.

You might also point out that statewide statistics on compliance are being gathered in an effort to ascertain the need for a Florida-style preemption statute. (Of course this is most effective if you include a link to all the horrific personal penalties that come with violation of Florida preemption!)

ETA: Of course, another possible next course would be to send a thorough summary of your efforts to each member of the Roanoke Board of Supervisors, specifically pointing out to them the county's exposure to litigation and reimbursement of legal costs and attorney's fees.

TFred
 
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Sesrun

Regular Member
Joined
May 4, 2011
Messages
84
Location
Roanoke, VA
Perhaps it's soon time to stop waiting for the tooth to be plucked from the chicken's beak, and reply back that you appreciate his effort, and you will now be reporting Roanoke County to the VCDL as defiantly non-compliant with 15.2-915, and that further action will be contemplated by the VCDL litigation experts.

You might also point out that statewide statistics on compliance are being gathered in an effort to ascertain the need for a Florida-style preemption statute. (Of course this is most effective if you include a link to all the horrific personal penalties that come with violation of Florida preemption!)

ETA: Of course, another possible next course would be to send a thorough summary of your efforts to each member of the Roanoke Board of Supervisors, specifically pointing out to them the county's exposure to litigation and reimbursement of legal costs and attorney's fees.

TFred

Absolutely excellent tactics which will certainly be used as the next step. I'm actually going to start drafting those into form now. Thank you for the suggestions.
 

cyras21

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
152
Location
Stepehens City, VA
Back to the grinding stone of trying to get a straight answer & correction out of Roanoke County...

Sent moments ago...

I've emailed them about this and I'm sure you'll get the same response I did...read the next line that says " as expressly prohibited by statute". They're response is that since the State doesn't prohibit open carry or concealed carry with a permit that you are within the statue and NOT violating Roanoke's ordinance. It's a cheap play on words meant to confuse the public. I find it a waste of tax payer dollars for any county to restate something that the State has already said!
 

ed

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
4,841
Location
Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
email sent

Mr. Mahoney -

It has come to my attention that there are there is still an invalid and unenforceable ordinance published in Roanoke County's Code of Ordinances; Chapter 15 - Parks and Recreation, Section 15-8 - Prohibited uses of parks, Item #6: "Hunting and firearms."


I have further found that Roanoke County was informed of this violation in May of last year, yet the ordinance remains uncorrected. As you are aware, In addition to any other relief provided, the court may award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any person, group, or entity that prevails in an action challenging (i) an ordinance, resolution, or motion as being in conflict with this section or (ii) an administrative action taken in bad faith as being in conflict with this section.


Please let me know how quickly this can be corrected and brought into compliance with the law.


Thank you,


Ed Levine
Box 16143
Washington, DC 20041


- - - -

---------------------------------
To: phaislip@roanokecountyva.gov
---------------------------------

Mr. Pete Haislep, Director
Roanoke County Parks and Recreation Department
1206 Kessler Mill Rd.
Salem, VA 24153
May 4, 2011

Mr. Haislep,

It has come to my attention that there is an invalid and unenforceable ordinance published in Roanoke County's Code of Ordinances; Chapter 15 - Parks and Recreation, Section 15-8 - Prohibited uses of parks, Item #6: "Hunting and firearms."
http://library.municode.com/HTML/122...RE_S15-8PRUSPA

This ordinance is clearly in violation of the Code of Virginia § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+15.2-915(attached).

Please advise me as to how Roanoke County will correct this situation.

Your attention to this matter is appreciated and I look forward to your early response.
Sincerely,
XXX
XXXX

cc:
Mr. Ray Lavinder, Chief of Police
rkern@roanokecountyva.gov
Public Safety Center
5925 Cove Rd.
Roanoke, VA 24019

Mr. Paul Mahoney, County Attorney
pmahoney@roanokecountyva.gov
Roanoke County Atorney's Office
5204 Bernard Dr.
Fourth Floor
Roanoke, VA 24018

Mr. Michael Winston, Sherrif
mwinston@roanokecountyva.gov
Roanoke County Sheriff's Department
401 E. Main St.
Salem, VA 24153

---------------------------------

 

thaJack

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
70
Location
Roanoke, Virginia, USA
I've emailed them about this and I'm sure you'll get the same response I did...read the next line that says " as expressly prohibited by statute"... It's a cheap play on words meant to confuse the public.

My problem isn't so much that it confuses the public, but that it would confuse a police officer responding to a MWAG call.
 

ed

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
4,841
Location
Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
Subject: Re: § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; VIOLATION NOTICE - Roanoke County, VA
From: Paul Mahoney <pmahoney@roanokecountyva.gov>
To: VA Gun Rights <vagunrights@gmail.com>
CC: Re: § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; VIOLATION NOTICE - Roanoke County, VA



Dear Mr. Levine:

Thank you for your email concerning this topic. I have previously responded to similar inquiries.

In March of 2008 the Board of Supervisors reviewed the County's Parks & Recreation ordinance and considered amendments to it. Changes in the scope of operations and activities, as well as changes in enabling legislation adopted by the Virginia General Assembly prompted this review. On March 25, 2008 the Board adopted an amendment that comprehensively changed this chapter of the County Code.

I respectfully suggest that you are mis-reading and mis-interpreting the amendments to Sec. 15.8 of this ordinance. The language added to this section by the amendment complied both with the direction of the General Assembly as evidenced by Virginia Code Sec. 15.2-915, and other provisions of the Code of Virginia. Sec. 15.2-915 includes the phrase "other than those expressly authorized by statute" to limit its otherwise broad prohibition. The amendment adopted by the Board parallels this enabling language by including it in line 5 of Sec. 15-8(6).

The Virginia Code Sec. 15.2-915 to which you make reference makes specific exception for local ordinances relating to firearms which are expressly authorized by state statute. Roanoke County's ordinance specifically incorporates that provision. This office had carefully considered the legislation adopted by the Virginia General Assembly, and analyzed that legislation with reference to existing County Code provisions. In March of 2008 we recommended that the Board of Supervisors consider an amendment to Section 15-8 of the Roanoke County Code to bring it in to compliance with Section 15.2-915 of the Code of Virginia. The Board accepted our recommendation and adopted Ordinance #032508-7. This amendment cured any infirmity.
Roanoke County makes every effort to insure that our county code is in compliance with the requirements of Virginia law. Thank you again for your inquiry.



Paul M. Mahoney

Roanoke County Attorney
 

ed

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
4,841
Location
Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
To: pmahoney@roanokecountyva.gov
Sent: 4/19/2012 1:36:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: RE: § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; VIOLATION NOTICE - Roanoke County, VA


Mr. Mahoney,

Pardon my interest in Mr. Levine’s request but I am a Virginia resident and visit Roanoke County. In your response to Mr. Levine, you state, “The amendment adopted by the Board parallels this enabling language by including it in line 5 of Sec. 15-8(6).” For clarity, are you saying that line 5 of Sec. 15-8(6) states, “…as expressly prohibited by statute”?

Perhaps even better, as the County Attorney, can you please clarify in writing to us, that the language used by the County, as expressly prohibited by statute” has the same force and effect as the language in Va. Code § 15.2-915 (B) , “other than those expressly authorized by statute.” Since you did insinuate the Mr. Levine is “mis-reading and mis-interpreting the language in the amendments”, which means I am also misinterpreting it, please respond so there is no misinterpretation—such as, “Yes, the language used in Roanoke County Ordinance as Amended #032508-7, Sec. 15.8(6), ‘as expressly prohibited by statute’ has the same force and effect as Va. Code § 15.2-915 (B) ‘other than those expressly authorized by statue’.”

If you would like to go further and explain why the BOS did not simply adopt or use the language in the Va. Code, that would be welcomed although I assume that you, as the County Attorney, would not have recommended or colluded to alter the language of Va. Code § 15.2-915 (B) in bad faith.

Ultimately, the BOS used language in Amendment #032508-7, Sec. 15.8 (6) which does NOT mirror Va. Code § 15.2-915 (B). Instead, it clearly directs any reader, from law enforcement and accused, to commonwealth attorney and Court that there is a violation. It is not even ambiguous--it is so distinct from the language in Va. Code § 15.2-915 (B) that it does not direct a reasonable person back to Va. Code, instead it goes to support what the ordinance attempts to prohibit. Unless the ordinance’s language is properly challenged case by case, post-violation, there is no reasonable outcome other than erroneously finding of a violation.

Moreover, blatantly avoiding the use of language within Va. Code § 15.2-915 (B) , “other than those expressly authorized by statute,” and replacing it with, as expressly prohibited by statute is a clear indication that the intent of the County is to thwart Va. Code § 15.2-915 (B). This is an act of bad faith.

Noteworthy, in 2009, as a result of many local jurisdictions failing to alter or, as with Roanoke County, attempting to manipulate language to skirt around preemption in bad faith, the Virginia Assembly amended § 15.2-915 with (C), “In addition to any other relief provided, the court may award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any person, group, or entity that prevails in an action challenging (i) an ordinance, resolution, or motion as being in conflict with this section or (ii) an administrative action taken in bad faith as being in conflict with this section.”

When you, as the county attorney, have to inform someone that their interpretation of a county ordinance is due to “mis-reading and mis-interpreting the amendments,” that is a very clear indication that something is amiss but paves the path for both clarity and change.

I await your response and clarification.

Brian Reynolds


(Under the pre-2008 ordinance or the March 2008 Amendment, #032508-7, Sec. 15.8 (6), the language is clearly in violation of preemption. http://weblink.roanokecountyva.gov/WebLinkBOS/DocView.aspx?id=4015&page=24&dbid=0.)
Well done Brian
 

jmelvin

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,195
Location
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
We've caught them red-handed trying to deceive in order to get around 15.2-915. This may well need to be the first locality to be sued.

I'd send money.

TFred

As will I. The wifester and I are down in Roanoke regularly and could be impacted by their attempt to be bound by state law.
 
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