Raggs
Regular Member
Would printing while concealed be RAS for officers to stop you. would the wind blowing your shirt so that your firearm became visible be RAS?
He doesn't have to in MI... If he thinks you should need a CPL he can ask to see it.
Exerp from section 28 of the penal code. Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:
His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
His or her driver license or personal identification card
Failure to show CCW license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine.
This part stands alone and does not require the officer to do anything but ask.
United States v. Ubiles, 224 F.3d 213 (3d Cir. 2000) declares that possession of a firearm in public, with no other circumstances present, does
not justify a stop. "For all the officers knew, even assuming the reliability of the tip that Ubiles
possessed a gun, Ubiles was . . . lawfully exercising his right . . . to possess a gun in public." See
also United States v. Dudley, 854 F. Supp. 570 (S.D.Ind. 1994), in which the court declared that
a report of persons with guns did not justify an investigative stop. "In short, the Government
failed to establish . . . that some reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, based on articulable
facts, justified this seizure. And, if the stop itself is unlawful, neither Terry nor Michigan v.
Long authorize the police to search the suspects or the suspect's vehicle for weapons, even if the
officers reasonably fear for their safety."
Likewise, the U.S. Supreme Court in Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000), declared that there is
no "gun exception" to the Fourth Amendment
"Stopping a car for no other reason than to check the license and registration was unreasonable under the 4th amendment."
Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648 (1979).
How is stopping someone just to check CCW any different than stopping someone just for a DL check??? Both are activities requiring a government permission slip.
My point was they don't have to detain you for anything else and wait for you to disclose. They can simply immediately ask to see your CPL and ID and you must show them. No lengthy detention. No why am I being detained back and forth No wash rinse repeat. If you don't present CPL and ID you are investigated and ticketed for a civil infraction and will pay a 100.00 fine. Likely your gun would be taken and perhaps not given back on the spot. All sorts of unpleasant time wasting going to get it back.
I don't agree with the law however since it is the law I follow it for the time and work to get it removed.
So in short in MI if you have a CPL and CC you give up the right to not show ID if an officer were to decide to ask to see your CPL for some reason while you are CCing. As you must have your ID and your CPL and must show them both upon request. No where does it say that the officer needs any special reason to request just that they must be shown upon request.
And while this is likely a detention it could be the shortest on record... I had this happen once and literally it took less than a minute and the officer said thanks have a nice day and that was it. The longest part was me digging out my CPL as it was stuck in my wallet window.. Humid day.
Very similar thing happened to me last winter. I was at the 7-11 at Gratiot and Hall rd around 0630 and I had my dads coat on. Its bigger than mine and not as tight fitting, there was a strong wind that day. A Macomb County Sheriff was walking to his vehicle he looked at me did a double take then continued to his cruiser. I thought nothing of it and went inside. As I was getting my coffee the same officer came in with his partner, he looked right at me and bumped his buddy nodding in my direction. I knew at that point I was going to have an interaction with leos so I put my coffee down and waited for them to walk over. The officer that saw me outside asked if I had a gun on me. I asked if I was being stopped he said yes so I disclosed. He said he was stopping me because he noticed that when he was walking by he saw my gun. I said that I normally open carry but the wind must have blown my coat over it. He apologized for bothering me and we shook hands, his partner also shook my hand and said, he was pretty sure I was legal but backed up his partner. I asked if he wanted to see my Id's he said "nope your good have a great day" I told them to be safe and do the same.
Pretty good interaction, but still I go that gas station everyday and there are almost always 4 or more MCS officers there and I always say hello to the ones I see regularly. I hadn't seen this one but I know I have seen his partner before several times. Anyway, unintentionally I concealed they knew it was a crime to do so without a CPL and I had to disclose. That's another reason I prefer Open Carry, no disclosure needed! If I had been more careful I wouldn't have been stopped at all.
My point was they don't have to detain you for anything else and wait for you to disclose. They can simply immediately ask to see your CPL and ID and you must show them. No lengthy detention. No why am I being detained back and forth No wash rinse repeat. If you don't present CPL and ID you are investigated and ticketed for a civil infraction and will pay a 100.00 fine. Likely your gun would be taken and perhaps not given back on the spot. All sorts of unpleasant time wasting going to get it back.
I don't agree with the law however since it is the law I follow it for the time and work to get it removed.
So in short in MI if you have a CPL and CC you give up the right to not show ID if an officer were to decide to ask to see your CPL for some reason while you are CCing. As you must have your ID and your CPL and must show them both upon request. No where does it say that the officer needs any special reason to request just that they must be shown upon request.
And while this is likely a detention it could be the shortest on record... I had this happen once and literally it took less than a minute and the officer said thanks have a nice day and that was it. The longest part was me digging out my CPL as it was stuck in my wallet window.. Humid day.
First I am not in Michigan, but I like to understand the Law.
Let us say I have a Michigan resident Concealed Pistol License. I am on a street corner and I am NOT armed. I have the physical appearance of the general population (dress not a factor). Can a LEO who assumes I have a CPL ask me for my ID because he thinks I have a weapon? The law seems to read that a LEO has free reign over that kind of situation and that is not comfortable with me. Please correct me.
28.425f said:Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to peace officer; violation; penalty; notice to department and issuing board; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
Sec. 5f.
(1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology.
(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
First I am not in Michigan, but I like to understand the Law.
Let us say I have a Michigan resident Concealed Pistol License. I am on a street corner and I am NOT armed. I have the physical appearance of the general population (dress not a factor). Can a LEO who assumes I have a CPL ask me for my ID because he thinks I have a weapon? The law seems to read that a LEO has free reign over that kind of situation and that is not comfortable with me. Please correct me.
If you are not armed, as in your example, you are not required to disclose ID. If you are armed only with an openly carried pistol [not a concealed pistol], you do not have to disclose. If you are armed with a concealed pistol, an officer may demand for you to show him your ID and concealed pistol license.
Bold added for emphasis.
...He said he was stopping me because he noticed that when he was walking by he saw my gun. I said that I normally open carry but the wind must have blown my coat over it. He apologized for bothering me and we shook hands, his partner also shook my hand and said, he was pretty sure I was legal but backed up his partner. I asked if he wanted to see my Id's he said "nope your good have a great day" I told them to be safe and do the same.
Pretty good interaction, but still I go that gas station everyday and there are almost always 4 or more MCS officers there and I always say hello to the ones I see regularly. I hadn't seen this one but I know I have seen his partner before several times. Anyway, unintentionally I concealed they knew it was a crime to do so without a CPL and I had to disclose. That's another reason I prefer Open Carry, no disclosure needed! If I had been more careful I wouldn't have been stopped at all.