Open Carry Update

[mspgunner]

Are you saying that the 2A groups do this currently? Where is there a posting of what the legislative priorities are? I'd like to support them, but if I can't find out what they are, it's difficult. How do we get our interests heard, since we don't technically have a board? What do we need to advance open carry in this environment?

They have and they do curently. The legislative agenda is NOT posted nor discussed on the forums. Remember the Anti's monitor the forums! It is done at the board level. Although I am usually aware of the agenda i and the board do not discuss the dealings, the negotiations, nor the lobby efforts on the forums. I don't know if you or the others here subscribe to: www.missouricarry.com or read the GCLA newletters: http://www.gclastl.org/index.html

You are right about advancing OC in these groups. However there are some in favor and some against. OC is just one of literally dozens of firearms issues..... Think about it, short list: College carry/parking lot carry/church carry/public transport/staduim carry/ age for CCW permit/the prohibited places/many firearms issues.... The list goes on.
We here have a list of our own priorities in relation to OC. It takes an organized front to have any impact at all. That's why we need to do better at organization and influence. The best way to influence 2A legislation is through organizations such as the ones previously mentioned and to draw OCers into them to have an influence. If we get many many pro-Ocers on their boards we have a direct and influential link to the legislature. If we just limit our discussion to this site, we have nothing. Going to take soem time and effort, getting a bill to become law is not easy. There are thousands of bills backed by all sorts of "special interests", (we are one of them) VERY FEW BECOME LAW!

 

[kcgunfan]

They have and they do curently. The legislative agenda is NOT posted nor discussed on the forums. Remember the Anti's monitor the forums! It is done at the board level. Although I am usually aware of the agenda i and the board do not discuss the dealings, the negotiations, nor the lobby efforts on the forums. I don't know if you or the others here subscribe to: www.missouricarry.com or read the GCLA newletters: http://www.gclastl.org/index.html

I know, there's a lot of issues around firearms, and I don't disagree with keeping them private. But, it is hard to advocate a private agenda. I am on the MO Carry boards (although I haven't posted) and haven't done anything with the GCLA, because I assumed it is a east siders org. Is that incorrect? I do read WMSA also, but there's nothing there. Haven't done anything with MSSA though.

To be honest, I'm happy with any progress on the firearms front. I was just fine with the AG DB to tell us where OC is disallowed for 2011. Looks like even that's going to get flushed. I don't think we need to get everything we want this year, but I'd like to be able to help more.

I think a lot of the bills passed by the House fell more under housekeeping and perks for the legislature's staff, than anything for the people, and that didn't make me really happy.

 

[tittiger]

The only way to get me fully on board is to have a complete overview of what you are looking to do both short term and long term and then debate it out and then if there is not too much compromise or going about things the wrong way I will be fully on board. I think most people would feel like wise.

I do not even know your end goals (and they should be many) Are things like constitutional provisions for NO firearms laws even considered? How about goals that might be ancillary to 2A such a jury nullification education, jury nullification laws, jury nullification Constitutional amendments? Voter initiatives? Voter recalls of politicians? On and on and on.....

Then shorter term goals. Where is the open carry indemnification policy? Have you even considered one? What about local online MO newspapers so that citizens can read real news? Why should they have to read the biased mainstream press?
IMHO you need to spell things out.

The way things being done we are playing their game with their rules in their ball park. It's time for a change in tactics.



Thanks gents

 

[peterarthur]

Originally Posted by kcgunfan
If the state does not take away rights, then why can't you open carry whenever you want? If the state cannot give rights, why can you now concealed carry with an endorsement now, when you couldn't 10 years ago?

State's can and do give and take away rights.

Bingo .

2 people wrong, sorry... the following is not specifically about or to you... unless the shoe fits.

States may deny us a right, they might protect a right, they may VIOLATE your rights, but they cannot give or take a right away. A right by it's very nature EXISTS regardless of laws surrounding it. This is why so many people get this debate wrong. The right to self-preservation exists, period. If the public was smart enough to understand this obvious fact, this debate would be over. But people on the whole are retarded, believing that governments decide what your rights are, when they actually only decide which EXISTING rights they will protect or violate.

It is so simple that I almost feel stupid explaining it. But I will keep trying in the optimistic hope that LESS than half the voters are stupid, fearful sheep... hope I am right on that count...

 

[tittiger]

Thanks peterarthur

You said that very well.
I am not going to reinvent the wheel I think I am going to cut and paste your answer for the next 100 some uninformed persons that make their uninformed arguments about rights.

The forum probably needs a FAQ with your definition in it that every member here needs to read before he can post. But then there are many that can not wrap their minds around the fact that the legislature does not give us our rights -- the fluoride and the governments schools have served their purpose.

 

[Festus_Hagen]

 

[mspgunner]

I know, there's a lot of issues around firearms, and I don't disagree with keeping them private. But, it is hard to advocate a private agenda. I am on the MO Carry boards (although I haven't posted) and haven't done anything with the GCLA, because I assumed it is a east siders org. Is that incorrect? I do read WMSA also, but there's nothing there. Haven't done anything with MSSA though.

To be honest, I'm happy with any progress on the firearms front. I was just fine with the AG DB to tell us where OC is disallowed for 2011. Looks like even that's going to get flushed. I don't think we need to get everything we want this year, but I'd like to be able to help more.

I think a lot of the bills passed by the House fell more under housekeeping and perks for the legislature's staff, than anything for the people, and that didn't make me really happy.

The GCLA exisys only here in the STL area. They raise a good deal of money for their PAC which is soley for 2A causes. They are one of the nations largest NRA recruiting organizations.

 

[kcgunfan]

2 people wrong, sorry... the following is not specifically about or to you... unless the shoe fits.

States may deny us a right, they might protect a right, they may VIOLATE your rights, but they cannot give or take a right away. A right by it's very nature EXISTS regardless of laws surrounding it. This is why so many people get this debate wrong. The right to self-preservation exists, period. If the public was smart enough to understand this obvious fact, this debate would be over. But people on the whole are retarded, believing that governments decide what your rights are, when they actually only decide which EXISTING rights they will protect or violate.

It is so simple that I almost feel stupid explaining it. But I will keep trying in the optimistic hope that LESS than half the voters are stupid, fearful sheep... hope I am right on that count...

Thanks, that's the point I was clumsily trying to make. I just could not think of the proper way to phrase it. Which was why I wrote the last paragraph, to explain where I know rights come from. I guess I could have phrased it as the exercise of my right to self-defense. But, I tend not to distinguish a right from the exercise of the right. But on the other hand, since rights can only be shown through exercise, it's a distinction without a difference.

 

[mspgunner]

Thanks, that's the point I was clumsily trying to make. I just could not think of the proper way to phrase it. Which was why I wrote the last paragraph, to explain where I know rights come from. I guess I could have phrased it as the exercise of my right to self-defense. But, I tend not to distinguish a right from the exercise of the right. But on the other hand, since rights can only be shown through exercise, it's a distinction without a difference.

We are basically on the same page: The Right ot Keep and Bear Arns "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED". The problem is, that it is infringed! How does that get "fixed"? Not by God, by the legislature, they are the ones who infringed it and the only ones that can fix it, the problem is they have no balls!

Questions?

 

[Festus_Hagen]

We are basically on the same page: The Right ot Keep and Bear Arns "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED". The problem is, that it is infringed! How does that get "fixed"? Not by God, by the legislature, they are the ones who infringed it and the only ones that can fix it, the problem is they have no balls!

Questions?

^^^This.

Who's gonna do it ?I hear that it's " my God given right" enough, who's gonna put God back into it ?

It's in the .govs hands. Period.

 

[cshoff]

^^^This.

Who's gonna do it ?I hear that it's " my God given right" enough, who's gonna put God back into it ?

It's in the .govs hands. Period.

No, it's in the VOTERS hands, period. If the voters will find the collective resolve to replace ill-performing legislators, or show enough unified support to influence them, then things start to happen in a hurry. But that is the problem, in a nutshell; the voters seem to think their job has ended once the election is over when really, their job has just begun. Depending on politicians to do the right thing by the Constitution would be like depending on convicted bank robbers to guard the contents of the bank vault.

 

[Festus_Hagen]

No, it's in the VOTERS hands, period. If the voters will find the collective resolve to replace ill-performing legislators, or show enough unified support to influence them, then things start to happen in a hurry.

I do my part, and I know alot of others do too. Problem is, most of the politicians no matter the party are already in " The Machine " so to speak.

I know what your saying, but there is alot of political money out there floating around and alot of them want it so will do whatever it takes to do so.

 

[tittiger]

You are all leaving it unsaid and I think you all know the fundamental reason we have weapons and it looks very much like it is for times like this. i.e. When tyrants run over your rights, you try everything and finally you have no peaceful recourse.

Keep on trying through official channels but they don't seem to work any longer and your final recourse is being armed.


Was it JFK that said something like: Those who make peaceful change impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

 

[Article1section23]

Ok, we disagree. The question... are you satisfied with the patch work of OC and NO OC?
Would you go aqlong with CCW permit to OC or just leave things as they are?
Either way, nothing is going to happen any time soon. Constitutional carry is soemthing we can dream about but I don't see that anytime soon either.

I believe the answer is the same as the many 2A groups in Missouri use. The members of the boards of the various 2A groups get together and come up with a plan for the up coming legislative session and present a unified front. Trust me, they really do this. They discourage others from interfering but suggest letters, emails, direct contact with "your" elected officials to encoiurage passage of the agreed legislative action.

That is the way it is done in Missouri, trust me. So, if we (OC'ers) want to pursue a course of action "we" best stop disagreeing here and get our collective acts together to get a legislative inititive by way of power in numbers and lobby efforts. The pro-2A groups represent tens of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions every year...TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS That is a big influence. Yes money matters in Jefferson City, like it, believe it or not. We need to get organized if we are to accomplish anything. I have already expressed an interest in running for the Board of the MSSA. "WE" need to join these 2A groups and vote in the meetings if "we" are ever going to really make a difference. Join MSSA, join GCLS, join GOA.... If you don't know what these groups are you need to learn. Google will work.

It's political, people power can make a difference, but we need a uniformed front and people!

Thats why a "picinic" or some get togethers especially here in the eastern part of the State is important. In the KC area they have numbers, participants. The two sides of the State can work together and be a force for 2A rights, and a collective approach and using the large and influential exisiting 2A groups can help. Small numbers, no lobby effort and disagreement will result in NO changes to the OC laws in Missouri.

OK, LOCK AND LOAD, LET ME HAVE IT WITH BOTH BARRELS AND A BAYONET CHARGE!

I killed your HB 841 months ago...thats why your not getting any calls back.

 

[mspgunner]

I killed your HB 841 months ago...thats why your not getting any calls back.

"I", meaning who?

 

[Festus_Hagen]

You are all leaving it unsaid and I think you all know the fundamental reason we have weapons and it looks very much like it is for times like this. i.e. When tyrants run over your rights, you try everything and finally you have no peaceful recourse.

Keep on trying through official channels but they don't seem to work any longer and your final recourse is being armed.


Was it JFK that said something like: Those who make peaceful change impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

So... it's time to lock-n-load ? :uhoh:

 

[mspgunner]

So... it's time to lock-n-load ? :uhoh:

I don't think it's time to go quite that far. It is time to organize and get our voting act together.

If they don't walk the walk, work to get them booted out!

There ar elots of folks out there who run for office, a little effort and time go a long way towards getting the cor rect perople in office. If you lock and load, there is a special place you may find yourself in too.... A couple of choices with that option, one up and one down.

 

[LMTD]

Clue: The "whole plan" will never be discussed because it SHOULDN't be discussed. Politics is a game of chess and every action has a reaction, the antis get ears too.

I think it is a lot further off these days. I do not like it, but the cowards are going to run from it and even some supporters whom will most certainly stop short of OC.

Face it, it scares the sheep.

 

[mspgunner]

clue: The "whole plan" will never be discussed because it shouldn't be discussed. Politics is a game of chess and every action has a reaction, the antis get ears too.

I think it is a lot further off these days. I do not like it, but the cowards are going to run from it and even some supporters whom will most certainly stop short of oc.

Face it, it scares the sheep.

bingo!!!

 

[9026543]

bingo!!!

And those in the magic circle doesn't want anyone to p*** off the game players in Jeff City.