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Open Carry in Practice: Who's done it? | Vigilance Elite

Ghost1958

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Nov 5, 2015
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Kentucky
alas Ghost, et al., a rose by any other name is still a violation of KY 508.050 ~ Menacing, quote:
(1) A person is guilty of menacing when he intentionally places another person in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical injury.
(2) Menacing is a Class B misdemeanor.
Effective:January 1, 1975 History: Created 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 406, sec. 69, effective January 1, 1975.
Carrying a firearm openly in hand is not a violation of that statute nor will any officer tha that does not want a ton of problems stop a carrier for it.
The open carry of a firearm is not a reason to make a stop. That is settled ky law.
No statute requires the firearm to be slung or holstered.

Pointing the firearm at someone with no reasonable reason to would violate that statute, though it would have to be on video or witnessed by an officer to hold up in court.
 

solus

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Carrying a firearm openly in hand is not a violation of that statute nor will any officer tha that does not want a ton of problems stop a carrier for it.
The open carry of a firearm is not a reason to make a stop. That is settled ky law.
No statute requires the firearm to be slung or holstered.

Pointing the firearm at someone with no reasonable reason to would violate that statute, though it would have to be on video or witnessed by an officer to hold up in court.
let's see now "nor" is quite definitely a broad statement, yet kind LE's aren't suppose to do a lot of things yet I'm sure they regularly do so regularly to KY citizens.

"nor" will a 'momma against everything' ever contact the LEs to lodge a formal complaint, just cuz they can w/o retribution, against someone OC'g stating they have a "reasonable apprehension" now will they?

"nor" will an OC'g citizen get belligerent towards a responding LE who is investigating the formal complaint lodged cuz of him...

nor will never transpire...
 

OC for ME

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There is a fairly straight forward answer to the cc , oc debate.
Most instructors push CC. Yet they advise " flapping your jacket " to show a perceived potential threat you are armed to dissuade the potential attacker.
Which is basically simply going from cc to oc as a deterrent.
Might as well OC to begin with.
You mentioned "flapping your jacket" and thus KRS 508.050 could come into play...
(1) A person is guilty of menacing when he intentionally places another person in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical injury.
Not sure about you, but a citizen flapping his jacket at me could be taken two ways depending on the specific circumstances...it is never just "simply going from cc to oc."
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
You mentioned "flapping your jacket" and thus KRS 508.050 could come into play...Not sure about you, but a citizen flapping his jacket at me could be taken two ways depending on the specific circumstances...it is never just "simply going from cc to oc."
Flapping a jacket I personally think is stupid but instructors will advise to do it. I just oc


But no the practice could not fall under that statute in this state unless one intentionally pointed their firearm, knife etc at someone in a threatening manner.

The statute does not apply to OC of a firearm in this state.
 

Ghost1958

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let's see now "nor" is quite definitely a broad statement, yet kind LE's aren't suppose to do a lot of things yet I'm sure they regularly do so regularly to KY citizens.

"nor" will a 'momma against everything' ever contact the LEs to lodge a formal complaint, just cuz they can w/o retribution, against someone OC'g stating they have a "reasonable apprehension" now will they?

"nor" will an OC'g citizen get belligerent towards a responding LE who is investigating the formal complaint lodged cuz of him...

nor will never transpire...

I meant it to be a broad statement. Ky officers are well versed that OC is untouchable in this state. They know stopping anyone for a exposed weapon is going to be thrown out of court , get them a good a chewing out and likely a tidy settlement they or their dept will payout .
Flipping a jacket back is simply going from cc to OC here. That's it and that's all.

A jacket being flipped is a stupid practice IMO but here is a non issue.

The statute of menacing will only apply if one intentionally pointed his firearm at someone in a threatening manner not associated with SD.
 
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solus

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snipppp...

The statute of menacing will only apply if one intentionally pointed his firearm at someone in a threatening manner not associated with SD.
humm...ya know i guess i missed those specifically worded circumstances expressed by the statute's spirit & intent in my reading of 508.050...
 

Ghost1958

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humm...ya know i guess i missed those specifically worded circumstances expressed by the statute's spirit & intent in my reading of 508.050...
That's the way that statute is enforced concerning weapons here. I used to be one that was tasked with enforce such statutes.

One can be arrested for menacing without a weapon. But exposing a firearm will not be one of the reasons.
 

FTG-05

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Feb 28, 2011
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TN
For personal convenience, I typically OC whenever the weather permits. In the 10+ years I've been carrying, my experience is that most people don't take notice, and most that did have said "Thank you.". A few had questions, like "Where did you get your holster?" or "What are you carrying?". I took these encounters as opportunities to inform and educate. I always have some VCDL "Carry Cards" (https://vcdl.org/CarryInfo) with me for such situations.
This has been mine experience as well except I've been OCing since Feb. 2011.

It is utterly amazing how many have no clue you are open carrying in day to day life.
 

FTG-05

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TN
I OC exclusively (here in El Paso, TX, yes, our "beloved" Beto O'Rourke's liberal/Democrat home town!), but NOT in Walmarts or supermarkets anymore due to their recent policy changes (CC there instead as I won't be UNarmed). Even before said policy changes, however, in the 3 years I've been back from CO (since 2016) I've seen NO other OCers here in ELP EVER. Or even when I go up to NM to visit have I seen any OCers. :-(
Am going back to CO in a year...didn't see a lot of OCers there, but at least I saw SOME.
IMO, OCing is never going to be a common thing...I'm guessing most people are too timid to do it (it does take a stronger person) and/or believe the 3 major myths perpetually parroted by ignorant (and proud of it/won't change) OC critics:
"If you OC,
-- you'll be the first one shot."
-- you lose your element-of-surprise."
-- someone will grab your gun."
So I don't expect to get anyone I meet (I also have conversations like member 2a4all above mentioned, and also have a personal Open Carry El Paso "business card" I give people) to OPEN carry like me (I know they probably won't), but I always DO encourage them to get their CC permit (if their state requires one) and start CARRYING...instead of "just thinking about it" as some have told me.
In the 11 years I've been involved with OCing -- and spreading the pro-gun gospel (if you will) -- I hope at least a few of those people I've personally talked to (in 3 states: TX, NM and CO) actually ARE carrying now...but I'll never really know.
The only one you forgot was: "If you OC, you're an attention whore."
 

cloudcroft

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Jan 13, 2007
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El Paso, TX
The only one you forgot was: "If you OC, you're an attention whore."
Yes, that's another one! And related to it, "You think you're badass." The truth is, neither apply to me and I'd say neither to most OCers (if not all)...
People who say those things don't have a clue about OCing, they just parrot the ignorance they've heard from other "carry ignorant" people on the street or read in gun forums. Still, not only the general public believes these things about OCing, but most CCers do as well -- yet they should know better, being "fellow gun carriers!"
At least I have a decent chance to educate the general public, but as for CCers, most of the one's I've met are so close-minded they won't even listen...so I'm not encouraged to try anymore.
 
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MrRight

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Dec 9, 2008
Messages
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Location
Westminster, Colorado, USA
I have open carried regularly for many years here in Colorado. Not one negative word ever said to me. No "man with a gun" calls. This includes store, gas stations, church, restaurants...everywhere.
 

cloudcroft

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Jan 13, 2007
Messages
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Location
El Paso, TX
I have open carried regularly for many years here in Colorado. Not one negative word ever said to me. No "man with a gun" calls. This includes store, gas stations, church, restaurants...everywhere.
When I lived in Colorado Springs, I would carry "everywhere" also, from Fountain, CO, up to Golden, CO, and had the same positive experiences as you (only one was "questionable"). Most people didn't even notice though...
Well, I did NOT carry (OC or CC) on Federal property (VA Clinics, Ft. Carson, SS office, USPS, etc.) and/or places that had metal detectors.
Otherwise, pretty much "everywhere" as (fortunately) I went to those other places (GFZs) only rarely...and only when I HAD to.
 
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OC for ME

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Most folks, the non-carry folks, really don't care even when they do notice...The CC Industrial Complex?...well that is another conversation...
 

cloudcroft

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El Paso, TX
I was OC, [open carrying]. At both Walmarts, nothing said, no looks, no nothing.
Down here in Beto "I'll take your guns" O'Rourke's home town -- heavily Democrat (and Hispanic) El Paso, TX, -- and the place where that Walmart mass-shooting happened, as per Walmart's policy change re: OC AFTER the shooting I do not OC there anymore. Same with Albertsons here (actually, it was their owner Kroger) who followed Walmart's lead -- I now only CC in their stores. However, as soon as I exit and am in the parking lot, my gun comes out of a pocket and goes back into my OC holster, as per usual.
And since Walmsrts and Walmart Neighborhood Markets here have armed security (private or El Paso City Police Dept. cops, often BOTH are on duty -- one of each), they won't allow OCers to enter...so that's something you may not have at Colorado Walmarts & WNMs preventing you from OCing THERE. Even Best Buy here had City cops on duty...but at the time I encountered them (before Walmart's OC policy change), Best Buy/cops still allowed OCers to enter. Not sure they do now as I go there rarely...
When I move back to Colorado Springs (September 2020), I'm not sure if I will OC there, as it was my understanding Walmart's policy was national. Further, you have Albertsons, King Soopers (Kroger-owned) and Safeway (Albertsons-owned) there, and they ALL asked people not to OC in their stores anymore. I don't see pushing the issue as it may be counter-productive, even if CO stores do NOT have armed security/City cops at the front doors like we do here in TX.
So while you have had no issue there in CO OCing, at this point I'm not sure I'll "OC anyway" in Walmarts, King Soopers, Albertsons or Safeways in CO as I USED to do.
But that decision can be made later when I GET there. ;-)
 
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Ghost1958

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Nov 5, 2015
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Kentucky
Down here in Beto "I'll take your guns" O'Rourke's home town (El Paso, TX), and the place where that Walmart mass-shooting happened, as per Walmart's policy change re: OC AFTER the shooting I do not OC there anymore. Same with Albertsons here (actually, it was their owner Kroger) who followed Walmart's lead -- I now only CC in their stores. However, as soon as I exit and am in the parking lot, my gun comes out of a pocket and goes back into my OC holster, as per usual.
And since Walmsrts and Walmart Neighborhood Markets here have armed security (private or El Paso City Police Dept. cops, often BOTH are on duty -- one of each), they won't allow OCers to enter...so that's something you may not have at Colorado Walmarts & WNMs preventing you from OCing THERE. Even Best Buy here had City cops on duty...but at the time I encountered them (before Walmart's OC policy change), Best Buy/cops still allowed OCers to enter. Not sure they do now as I go there rarely...
When I move back to Colorado Springs (September 2020), I'm not sure if I will OC there, as it was my understanding Walmart's policy was national. Further, you have Albertsons, King Soopers (Kroger-owned) and Safeway (Albertsons-owned) there, and they ALL asked people not to OC in their stores anymore. I don't see pushing the issue as it may be counter-productive, even if CO stores do NOT have armed security/City cops at the front doors like we do here in TX.
So while you have had no issue there in CO OCing, at this point I'm not sure I'll OC anyway in Walmarts, King Soopers, Albertsons or Safeways in CO as I USED to do. But that decision can be made later when I GET there. ;-)
My wife was raised in El Paso. Small world

I'm in Ky. OC is untouchable here and not uncommon.
I didnt think Walmart's here would try to stop OC and from what I saw and my own experience they arent.

It wouldn't matter if they did have cops there at the door. The cop couldn't do squat until manager had verbally asked me to leave AND I refused to.
I realize Texas is a totally different animal gun wise than Ky.
 

cloudcroft

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My wife was raised in El Paso. Small world

I'm in Ky. OC is untouchable here and not uncommon.
I didnt think Walmart's here would try to stop OC and from what I saw and my own experience they arent.

It wouldn't matter if they did have cops there at the door. The cop couldn't do squat until manager had verbally asked me to leave AND I refused to.
I realize Texas is a totally different animal gun wise than Ky.
"My wife was raised in El Paso. Small world " -- Ghost1958
Interesting...what part?
As for Walmart (et al), I usually stop and talk to these security people and none seem to be anti-OC or anti-armed citizen, but just doing their job as told -- Walmart's instructions to them are not to let OCers into the store. If they won't leave when told by security they can't enter, it's a "trespassing" charge. And if you're dealing with a CITY cop (EPPD), you're not going to win any "debate" -- you'll get arrested. No thanks (if you don't mind). So you can see why I won't "push the envelope" here in El Paso in those particular stores.
But I don't know how the REST of TX is as it may be different (it's a HUGE state and ELP is in the far West corner, so it may just be ELP (given that Walmart shooting happened here) and not ALL of TX. Don't know, but Walmart announced they didn't want ("respectfully requested") OC in their stores, and didn't say that ONLY applied to ELP -- it seemed to be be national/corporate policy.
I'll see what the "Walmart" (and supermarkets, as mentioned) situation is like in CO when I get back.
I DO OC everywhere else I can here though -- as per usual.
>> BTW, in my previous post, for some reason I was thinking you were in CO (instead of KY), and so YOU were OCing in CO stores with "no incident." It was "MrRight" who was OCing in CO.
Sorry for the mix-up...I tend to do that occasionally.
Finally, yes, Texas IS a different animal (a horse of another color?), and not as "gun friendly" as people in other states often believe/expect of TX. It's a backwards state when it comes to the RKBA: We need a permit (permission!) not only to CC but to OC also. No permit, NO CARRY!
Note: I'm talking about carrying HANDGUNS -- long guns have always been legal to OC in TX without a permit.
 
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color of law

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Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Northrup v. City of Toledo Police Dep’t, 785 F.3d 1128 (6th Cir. 2015)
While the dispatcher and motorcyclist may not have known the details of Ohio's open-carry firearm law, the police officer had no basis for such uncertainty. If it is appropriate to presume that citizens know the parameters of the criminal laws, it is surely appropriate to expect the same of law enforcement officers—at least with regard to unambiguous statutes. Heien v. North Carolina, –––U.S. ––––, 135 S.Ct. 530, 540, 190 L.Ed.2d 475 (2014).
Kentucky is in the 6th. circuit.
 
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