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bobcat it needs to be spelled out in law, so places like Garry indiana wont harras open carriers anymore, as well as protecting those in other places. As i have mentioned before in another thread, i have talked to several different cops from a few different agencies. I recieved several different answeres, ranging from nothing to full multi car turnout with handcuffs and possible taser usage. It seems the view of indiana law is different per each agency and cop. If it was spelled out then they would have to follow some form of guide lines.
I agree that those areas off limits to licenced firearms owners needs to be made clear. I'll stick with, 'if it isn't documented in Indiana code that it's illegal, then it is perfectly legal. I.e., carrying open with a valid LTCH. I would suggest that the Gary officers (and others) need some 'ejumakashun' on the law. One way to do that may be to find an officer willing to dialogue unofficially. Preferably one with some rank so he/she has some clout. It won't be easy and it won't happen overnight. Be kinda nice to have some clearly written code though wouldn't it?
While I mentioned talking to LEO/PO friends, I know some who are quite well informed on the law in general. These fellows are more Peace Officer than LEO, are pro RKBA and do not have a problem with OC. However, the last conversation I had was that they are obligated to respond to a panicky 911 call for "man with a gun". It's the translation from the caller to the dispatcher to the responding officer where communication first gets lost. So it seems the entire system needs better education.
When I ask these cops questions, it is only ONE source of information for me. The reason I ask them about issues like those found on this board is; 1) Understand what the general LEO/PO perception is, 2) Establish dialogue without an 'official' contact, 3) Gather information on laws that I don't know about and can research, 4) An opportunity to voice my opinion in a calm, professional manner on subject x or
inform them regarding a law. It is and has been a two way street.
As for attorneys, these guys tend to be relatively specialized and focus only on what they or their practice makes money at. So finding one that has a firm grasp of firearms laws ain't easy. Tain't easy finding one.
Mordis:
For even more reasons why someone should spell it out in law, search google for the Fort Wayne police department forums. I cant remember the link right now, but the police rep there said it is SOP to stop and detain and question anyone carrying a gun that they see. I asked for some more info and they said that they just are making sure that the person is legal to own a gun, and not intending crime, but i feel that this is wrong. That is why we need it spelled out in law.
I couldn't agree more on
clarity and our intent. As I alluded to at the beginning of this post, this appears to be a general problem. Whenever we responsibly OC, we could/should expect a PO/LEO to calmly and professionally ask to see our valid LTCH. That's just part of living in Indiana, as that's the law. Beyond that, they should not be doing anything as we have not done anything illegal (I hope). Well, that's not what's happening in most cases from what I gather on this board and discussions with friends.
Aside: I just had a near run-in with a youngish State Trooper in a barbershop recently. I was CC'g a 1911 and had a thin, clingy sweatshirt on over it. (Mainly to avoid getting hair all over it.
) To say it was printing is a mild understatement. The bottome of the holster also peeks out occasionaly. As I got up to leave, a 'customer' gave me the
intense ugly eye. As he sat on the edge of his seat, ready to get up, his eyes moved rapidly between my hip and my face. I've been made, no big deal. I just smiled politely and left. No conversation by anyone. As I got in my vehicle, I noticed that he had driven up in a STATE TROOPER's car! Okay, now I know why that 'citizen' responded that way. Another one that probably needs EDUCATION.
I submit the fault is not just OURS but lies with the law enforcement community as well. It doesn't help that previous generations of citizens allowed the acceptance of OC to slip. How to solve that EDUCATION problem?
It looks to me like a major education program by RKBA folks needs to happen (won't be the first time). While I have some ideas, this is not a simple matter of individuals writing letters to Sheriff's and Chief's. While that's worthwhile, I don't believe it will have the desired effect we are talking about here. Such a campaign should be taken on by a recognized and responsible state wide group like the 2nd Amendment Patriots. They are working on access to the statehouse right now.
Out West where OC is more common, I've been told by friends there (unvetted) that as long as your firearm stays in the holster, no problem. Seems reasonable. And that's how 'MWG' calls are handled by many (but not all) dipatchers.
On the flip side, I have one friend in WY that OC's in several western states daily and has had the bulk of his trouble in CO. He's been slammed to the ground from behind (felony arrest style) more than onceand forcable disarmed with a gun to his head. He's been to court and WON on more than one occasion. CO is an
anomaous OC state, but does not have preemption and so has a patchwork of disarmament zones (DENVER)
Carrying Open is to be taken most seriously (not suggesting any of us wouldn't, just confirming the need) and with the expectation of confrontation by citizenry, store managers, and uninformed LEO's. How many stories are there on this forum to that effect? Great Gobs! Both positive and negative.
As for me, sometimes I'm not willing to risk the time and effort accompaning confrontation, so I CC. Call me chicken, but I believe it is the better part of valor in picking the time and place for OC. That's what works for me at this point. YMMV.
Mordis, I agree that groups seem to be a GOOD approach at this point for areas that are 'challenge prone'. At the least, have some friends with you while OC'ing, even if they are not. Dave Ridley in NH has proven this techniques worth more than once on VIDEO. It's not out of the question to have a camcorder with the group! Go to Ridley's sight and watch some of his videos. Even OC Dave highly recommends groups.
Mordis:
I would like clarification on carring in church as well. If you look around alot of churches have daycares and preschools and what not in the same building as the church and its service. Now, I HAVE CONSIDERED CC in some churches but it is a harrowing experiance, not knowing if ITS breaking the law or not. Here is a example of the type of church we're talking about. XYZ church of the XYZ, near A and B road in XYZ county. Its a large church, with both daycares and preschools as well as worship services. As far as i know the preschools and daycare are in a different area of the church, but i doubt it matters in the eyes of the law.
Mordis, while you have some level of anonymity on the web/forum, it's not absolute. So if you are unsure if something is legal, don't post the specifics of your activities that some overzealous DA could initiate an investigation on. Just a suggestion. I highly recommend you significantly edit your post.
As Dave Ridley has commented that the OC issue is one of EDUCATION. I agree that is true and applies to the legal citizen who OC's, citizenry in general, business owners and law enforcement. While this is not a new idea, it bears repeating, A UNIFORM and UNITED approach to education is likely the best approach. Many here have 'OC walks' which is a great thing to do as
part of the solution, but we have to expect that more will be required to get the job 'done'. IMO, it's not JUST about OC, it's about RKBA in general.