Occupy...?

[Citizen]

You apparently missed the part where I went to great lengths to clarify that they should not be PROHIBITED from carrying, that they OUGHT not be carrying.

Sorry, I did miss that.

I do disagree about the "ought not to"; but that doesn't excuse me missing that you made the distinction between ought and prohibited.

I apologize.

 

[Citizen]

Citizen
you can decree all you want
this is not a communist state, we need no concensus, for the record jims idea is a HORRIBLY FLAWED idea that associates us here at OCDO with enemies of the constitution and the the USA in general. stay away, very far away.

The smiley face and the Pharoaic command were the cues that it was humor.

I am the soul of modesty, the very epitome of humility. Why all my friends fall down suffocating with laughter whenever I say this is beyond me.

 

[amlevin]

The smiley face and the Pharoaic command were the cues that it was humor.

Maybe you need a bigger smiley

 

[Trigger Dr]

Roy Hobbs

I am not generally the one to go here but in this incident (davis) and the berkley encounter i fully support the police. i think you are missing the point of the 1st ammendmant protections.

I don't know who Roy Hobbs is, but the above quote I fully disagree with him. After a 27 career as LEO, I find the actions of these leo reprehensible. From the information and video I have seen, the ONLY action the police were correct in using was.....stand by and prevent damage to person and property, neither of which could be accomplished by seated, nonviolent protestors.
Roy, you are out of line.

 

[Metalhead47]

Sorry, I did miss that.

I do disagree about the "ought not to"; but that doesn't excuse me missing that you made the distinction between ought and prohibited.

I apologize.

'sall good. I don't think you really disagree with "ought not" either. See, I say they ought not carry because they (OWS) are stupid, and stupid people ought not carry because stupid people are incapable of rational decision making. Stupid people ought not​ exercise their rights to free speech either, as it usually makes them look, well, stupid. Given that even democrats are tiring of the OWS crowd, I'd say they are indeed making themselves look stupid.

Ignorant is easy, ignorant you can fix. But you can't fix stupid, because stupid is a choice.

 

[Metalhead47]

Maybe you need a bigger smiley

Bah. My smiley laugh at your little smiley. He is strong, like bull!

 

[Schlepnier]

You have got to be kidding me. They were nonviolently protesting, walking by pepper spraying people was not nessessary. I have nothing to do with OWS, nor do I want to, but they have the right to nonviolently protest. Some view the vancouver cop as giving Josh a lawful order by telling him to conceal, I guess he got what he deserved too?

Jayd1981
Perhaps you missed that whole bit about what has been ruled by SCOTUS as to what is and is not allowed under the 1A protections.
notice that the people who were peacefully protesting were not touched however those who are breaking laws, obstructing, blocking and otherwise not following the rules get what they deserve. civil disobedience is willfull lawbreaking to make a point. thus they are not protected under the 1A.

In josh's case the officer in question was issuing an UNLAWFUL order, as such josh was under no legal obligation to comply. what a person thinks is lawful or not is irrelevent when the letter of the law is involved(which is why we have courts to sort these things out).

From the information and video I have seen

Trigger Dr
there-in lies the problem, none of were there to see the full incident unfold. however what we know of the law 1A does not protect you from seeking a confrontation with LEOs when you are obstructing as the people in the video clearly intended. they could have easily moved out of the way when told to and not got sprayed.

Again it is pepper spray, considering what could have happened to them in other parts of the world. they got far less than they dersered in my book. hell the all the OWS groups have so far considering the damage they are doing to local property and economies.

 

[Dave_pro2a]

Again it is pepper spray, considering what could have happened to them in other parts of the world. they got far less than they dersered in my book.

In other parts of the world, there would have been quite a few dead and seriously injured police officers too.

One could argue that many of the LEO involved are getting less than they deserve. They almost always get away with abuse of civilians, even on the rare times it goes public. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016839624_leedismissal24m.html

 

[.45ACPaddy]

<snip>

The rest of this presupposes that you've seen the video of the UC Davis cop, outfitted in riot gear (side note - why does a college police force need riot gear, especially when they're not a Division I football school, and not located in West Virginia?) spraying a nonviolent protest with pepper spray like he's watering the lawn.

Go ahead and Google it if you haven't seen it. Make sure you get the 10 minute version that shows the prelude and aftermath.

This whole thing sickens me. The 1st amendment specifically guarantees the right to peaceful assembly, and 18 people sitting on the ground seems to define peaceful assembly. Watch it again. If it doesn't turn your stomach, as a human being, let alone as an American, then you're not the person I want to talk to.

The original police comment about this is that they felt threatened, and so they deployed the pepper spray. The video evidence is clear - the only thing the protesters did was sit down and link arms. Not very threatening, unless you consider sitting down to be a threat. Then again, maybe they were intent on playing full contact Duck Duck Goose, and all the sitting positions were occupied. I'm competitive enough to recognize that as motivation.

</snip>

Roy Hobbs

I am not generally the one to go here but in this incident (davis) and the berkley encounter i fully support the police. i think you are missing the point of the 1st ammendmant protections.

Yes they have a right to protest and they do have a right to peacably assemble however as the SCOTUS has upheld those rights are not absolute, meaning that they do not apply at all times and in all places. when OWS hide behind the 1st ammendmant to violate laws such as tresspass, prevent commerce &travel, prevent others from exercising their 1st ammendmant rights...etc....They are over the line


When you commit acts of civil disobedience you are operating outside the protections in the first ammendmant. you must be willing to live with the concequences. when you are given a lawful order from an officer and you choose to ignore it then you get what you deserve. given how occupy protestors are treated in other countries the use of non-lethal control mechanisms and the anemic responce from US law enforcement in most cases is such a non issue i cannot even get excited about it. personally i think these troublemakers at the core of the movement (i am looking at you van jones, stephen learner, ms pithian etc...) and even those that have become enamored with it without realsing it's true diobolical nature deserve alot more than pepper spray.

I believe them when they call for sedition, the destruction of our republic, co-opting members of the US armed forces for revolution against the government.....they say these things openly like a madman discussing the weather.

Yes i agree the TARP was a bad idea, however that doesnt mean you toss out the entire governement and replace it with a soviet style marxist socialist state with an even bigger government, touting policies that have a proven falure record. you instead force the government back under the confines set upon it by the constitution by electing new leaders, litigations and so forth.....

<snip>

Roy Hobbs

I am not generally the one to go here but in this incident (davis) and the berkley encounter i fully support the police. i think you are missing the point of the 1st ammendmant protections.

I don't know who Roy Hobbs is, but the above quote I fully disagree with him. After a 27 career as LEO, I find the actions of these leo reprehensible. From the information and video I have seen, the ONLY action the police were correct in using was.....stand by and prevent damage to person and property, neither of which could be accomplished by seated, nonviolent protestors.
Roy, you are out of line.

Trigger Dr. I think you and Roy Hobbs are on the same side, ya may have misread Schlepnier's post as being Roy Hobbs' post. Schlepnier was addressing Roy Hobbs.

 

[Trigger Dr]

45ACPAddy,
You are correct. I went back and re read. My appology to Roy Hobbs.

 

[jchen012]

Jayd1981
there-in lies the problem, none of were there to see the full incident unfold. however what we know of the law 1A does not protect you from seeking a confrontation with LEOs when you are obstructing as the people in the video clearly intended. they could have easily moved out of the way when told to and not got sprayed.

The same can be said with Josh. He could have "easily" put on a jacket to conceal his OC weapon... What if he got sprayed too? In my opinion, protesters who are seated on the sidewalk and not assaulting nor destroying public property do not deserve to be sprayed.

I do support the OWS philosophy in general, but unfortunately the type of people it has been attracting are quite questionable. I do believe that corporate greed has run rampant in this country. As an American, I want to buy American made products. However they are more expensive than foreign made products. If corporations such as Walmart made their products in the USA by taking less profit, I would be happy as a clam. There was a time in history when America made the cheapest (but good quality) products.

 

[amlevin]

There was a time in history when America made the cheapest (but good quality) products.

And that was when "American Labor" was cheaper than in the other industrialized countries. As the "third world" countries gain more industry they'll take business from the older established economies.

In China, labor costs have risen to the point where US Companies are bringing production back to this Country.

 

[Schlepnier]

In my opinion, protesters who are seated on the sidewalk and not assaulting nor destroying public property do not deserve to be sprayed.

Ahem, tresspss, obstructing, violating school directives, failure to obey a lawful order from an officer.......yes they got sprayed and should have. this was an act of civil disobedience

the refusal to obey certain laws or governmental demands for the purpose of influencing legislation or government policy, characterized by the employment of such nonviolent techniques as boycotting, picketing, and nonpayment of taxes.

The same can be said with Josh. He could have "easily" put on a jacket to conceal his OC weapon... What if he got sprayed too?

Josh was not breaking the law, these protesters however were, please keep the discussion away from straw man comparisons

I do support the OWS philosophy in general

Well thats your opinion and your well within your rights to express it however if thats your beef-large government colluding with large coorporations than you should support a legitimate movement like the tea party and its goal to bring the government back under the constitutional restrictions it was mandated. even though i am not a member of the tea party i do recognise the legitimacy fo their goals, however i strongly suggest you look at the core of the OWS movement before you sign on with their "philosophy".

At the core the OWS movement has openly called for marxist socialism and huge gvernment, the destruction of the US constitution and economic system replacing it with the ideal utopian model found in greece, italy and spain. notice those utopias are in worse shape than we are and nobody wants to talk about the failire of those policies. there is a reason why nazis(national socialists), communist governements, hugo chaves, cuba, hexbuallah, iran and other such groups and countries have thrown support behind the OWS movement.

 

[Schlepnier]

Ah found it......OWS in a nutshel, in video with pictures

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-TQYG1m0Y4

 

[Roy Hobbs]

At the core the OWS movement has openly called for marxist socialism and huge gvernment, the destruction of the US constitution and economic system replacing it with the ideal utopian model found in greece, italy and spain. notice those utopias are in worse shape than we are and nobody wants to talk about the failire of those policies. there is a reason why nazis(national socialists), communist governements, hugo chaves, cuba, hexbuallah, iran and other such groups and countries have thrown support behind the OWS movement.

Citation please. I haven't seen this information anywhere.

 

[Metalhead47]

Citation please. I haven't seen this information anywhere.

Do you not watch the news? Have you not seen these fools in person? Their signs and "official" demands and communications are rife with expansion of hand outs, punitive taxes on the real job creators (the wealthy), and MORE GOVERNMENT in general. Their whole point of existence is that they want the government to DO SOMETHING.

Then blame the unions and the environmentalists for destroying American industry. The latter regulates it out of existence while the former prices it out of existence. And you can find products at Walmart made in the USA right alongside those made in China, that whole anti-walmart propaganda is bunk. It's the people who go there who are buying the foreign-made goods, why attack Walmart for merely offering what people want​?

 

[Roy Hobbs]

Do you not watch the news? Have you not seen these fools in person? Their signs and "official" demands and communications are rife with expansion of hand outs, punitive taxes on the real job creators (the wealthy), and MORE GOVERNMENT in general. Their whole point of existence is that they want the government to DO SOMETHING.

Then blame the unions and the environmentalists for destroying American industry. The latter regulates it out of existence while the former prices it out of existence. And you can find products at Walmart made in the USA right alongside those made in China, that whole anti-walmart propaganda is bunk. It's the people who go there who are buying the foreign-made goods, why attack Walmart for merely offering what people want​?

Ah found it......OWS in a nutshel, in video with pictures

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-TQYG1m0Y4

With regards to the YouTube video, that was an outsider's interpretation of the OWS movement and not a statement from the group(s) or even individuals themselves.

I just spent about 5 minutes Googling for a list of their demands. I was unable to find any official statements made by these groups that come even remotely close to the motives and/or goals that you attribute to them (basically, installing Marxism/socialism in the US). As I said before, citation please.

And I do watch the news.

 

[Schlepnier]

Citation please. I haven't seen this information anywhere.

METALHEAD is spot on, do you watch the news at all, these people are not hiding it.

one of the OWS leaders from the NY protest told all shapton on MSNBC
‘This Is Revolution Not Reform’ — Occupy Wall Street Organizer to ‘Excited’ Al Sharpton: We Are Anarchists and Revolutionaries,‘This Is the Beginning of a Revolution in This Country’

the video has apparently been "scrubbed" from the MSNBC site since it no longer plays.


the nazis of OWS-


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ame...rotests-and-fight-judeo-capitalist-banksters/

the commies of OWS
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ame...rotests-and-fight-judeo-capitalist-banksters/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ame...rotests-and-fight-judeo-capitalist-banksters/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/the...ves-rousing-welcome-to-communist-party-u-s-a/

Some other supporters of OWS
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ame...rotests-and-fight-judeo-capitalist-banksters/

The organisation behind OWS
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ame...rotests-and-fight-judeo-capitalist-banksters/


There is quite a bit more of them in their own words, but i have to head off to work, that will have to do for now.

 

[Schlepnier]

With regards to the YouTube video, that was an outsider's interpretation of the OWS movement and not a statement from the group(s) or even individuals themselves.

I just spent about 5 minutes Googling for a list of their demands. I was unable to find any official statements made by these groups that come even remotely close to the motives and/or goals that you attribute to them (basically, installing Marxism/socialism in the US). As I said before, citation please.

And I do watch the news.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog...-occupy-wall-street-protesters-post-manifest/

The "Occupy Wall Street" protesters have listed 13 proposed demands from their website.


Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

Quite a list of Marxist "demands", indeed. The real question here is if these demands are not met, then what?

 

[golddigger14s]

You forgot #14: $1 million non-taxable for golddigger14s!