• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

OC Stop in Colorado

SeanO

Banned
Joined
Jun 26, 2017
Messages
11
Location
Colorado
OK guys, little update and need some help.

According to the Deputy Chief, 911 audio is not released because it is not a power call recording but a "jumble" of all calls being received. Secondly, they are going to let me "inspect" the body can footage on Monday, but will not release a copy. How do I fight the not releasing a copy? Can I legally record the video monitor and make my own copy? Where do I go from here? Want to make sure I'm prepare for Monday and do whatever I can to get a copy.

I had the thought of recording with our without permission, then allowing an arrest if they choose so for continually recording of they tell me to stop.

Thanks again in advance everyone!
 

FreedomVA

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
551
Location
FreedomVA
OK guys, little update and need some help.

According to the Deputy Chief, 911 audio is not released because it is not a power call recording but a "jumble" of all calls being received. Secondly, they are going to let me "inspect" the body can footage on Monday, but will not release a copy. How do I fight the not releasing a copy? Can I legally record the video monitor and make my own copy? Where do I go from here? Want to make sure I'm prepare for Monday and do whatever I can to get a copy.

I had the thought of recording with our without permission, then allowing an arrest if they choose so for continually recording of they tell me to stop.

Thanks again in advance everyone!

Retain a good attorney...

this maybe helpful also

https://www.flexyourrights.org
 
Last edited:

wabbit

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
152
Location
briar patch, NM
sorry, but might i suggest contacting the Trinidad sheriff's department since they are the highest peace officer entity in the county and a filing formal complaint and requesting formal IA report be submitted to you on the outcome; especially since there could be or seems to be a training deficiency within the TPD and nothing mentioned of civil suit anything but just to let another department know of the problem.

let them investigate and provide their report back to you.

FYI, CO state police's charter is to deal with traffic and they have absolutely no jurisdiction over sheriff.

re-reading dispatch...you might of gotten swatted and turned in by johnnie/sally do-gooders, concerned citizens doing the right thing and calling 911.

still would pursue filing IA under poor training of these types of situations and recommend training of dispatchers, responding LEs etc.
 
Last edited:

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
4,995
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
OK guys, little update and need some help.

According to the Deputy Chief, 911 audio is not released because it is not a power call recording but a "jumble" of all calls being received. Secondly, they are going to let me "inspect" the body can footage on Monday, but will not release a copy. How do I fight the not releasing a copy? Can I legally record the video monitor and make my own copy? Where do I go from here? Want to make sure I'm prepare for Monday and do whatever I can to get a copy.

I had the thought of recording with our without permission, then allowing an arrest if they choose so for continually recording of they tell me to stop.

Thanks again in advance everyone!
http://www.ccdconline.org/sites/default/files/colorado_open_records_act_info.pdf
I have not read the above.

http://www.cdacweb.com/Portals/0/LandingPageContent/BP Body Cam Report.pdf
Read the last page.

When the police say you can't have a copy - ask for the law that does not permit the release. Also, If no law was broken, I would think the release to the subject party would be required.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
sorry, but might i suggest contacting the Trinidad sheriff's department since they are the highest peace officer entity in the county and a filing formal complaint and requesting formal IA report be submitted to you on the outcome; especially since there could be or seems to be a training deficiency within the TPD and nothing mentioned of civil suit anything but just to let another department know of the problem.

let them investigate and provide their report back to you.

FYI, CO state police's charter is to deal with traffic and they have absolutely no jurisdiction over sheriff.

re-reading dispatch...you might of gotten swatted and turned in by johnnie/sally do-gooders, concerned citizens doing the right thing and calling 911.

still would pursue filing IA under poor training of these types of situations and recommend training of dispatchers, responding LEs etc.
+ 10000000

and I would suggest to OP, purchase a video camera or body cam of your own..
Good luck OP.

CCJ
 

Elhuero

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Messages
24
Location
Colorado Springs
+ 10000000

and I would suggest to OP, purchase a video camera or body cam of your own..
Good luck OP.

CCJ
This, times 1000.

If you carry a gun, you should carry a camera. The whole encounter should have been on video.

They are both tools of freedom against corrupt police.
 

Va_Nemo

Member
Joined
May 1, 2016
Messages
580
Location
Lynchburg
Item 1, anytime carrying anything unusual, wear a bodycam of your own. Not a bad idea to make that anytime carrying anything, as in firearm.

Item 2, retain counsel. Let him get the ball rolling. Might cost you a few bucks at the beginning but better to spend some and get a good answer to the question if they were inbounds or out.

If they were out I suspect it could quickly turn into a percentage of recovery based fee case.

Nemo
 

SeanO

Banned
Joined
Jun 26, 2017
Messages
11
Location
Colorado
Does anyone have a case law cite on running firearm serial numbers? Other than Arizona v Hicks, State(NM) v Gutteirrez or Ohio v Green. Thanks again in advance everyone.

Can anybody attorney also? The few I've called claim I have no case.
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,826
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Does anyone have a case law cite on running firearm serial numbers? Other than Arizona v Hicks, State(NM) v Gutteirrez or Ohio v Green. Thanks again in advance everyone.

Can anybody attorney also? The few I've called claim I have no case.
It's not that you truly have "no case", it's undeniable that you were seized and that your property was searched. IF you find an attorney to accept your civil suit the court is going to ask "How are you asking to have your client made whole? What restitution do you seek?"

In other words... were you fined any amount of money that can be returned to you?
Did you suffer a loss of freedom for an unconscionable amount of time, years, months, weeks, days, etc.?
Do you have hospital bills as a result of injuries sustained in the encounter?

Besides turning back the clock and returning your time to you, what can be done again to 'make you whole'?
 

wabbit

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
152
Location
briar patch, NM
Does anyone have a case law cite on running firearm serial numbers? Other than Arizona v Hicks, State(NM) v Gutteirrez or Ohio v Green. Thanks again in advance everyone.

Can anybody attorney also? The few I've called claim I have no case.
National Crime Information Center Database
The Federal Bureau of Investigation's (FBI) National Crime Information Center (NCIC) is a computerized system of criminal justice records. The system can be accessed 24 hours a day by any local, state or federal law enforcement agency and was originally created to assist local law enforcement personnel in apprehending interstate fugitives and locating stolen property. It has been expanded to include criminal history information in eleven specific categories, including records of convicted sex offenders, foreign fugitives, identity theft, missing persons, gang and terrorist organizations, fingerprint data, unidentified persons, and wanted persons.

The NCIC database is electronically collected from the computer systems of law enforcement agencies nationwide in a cooperative effort between the Federal Bureau of Investigation and participating law enforcement agencies. However, not all information available through the NCIC system is housed within it.

Access to NCIC databases are limited to law enforcement agencies and authorized private entities. Law enforcement and criminal justice entities may conduct NCIC checks on private individuals – without their consent – in fulfillment of law enforcement functions such as the investigation or prosecution of persons suspected of criminal activities. A private person may request his or her own criminal history information; however, private individuals or entities many not obtain NCIC criminal history information about another person without the third party's written consent.

Unfortunately, when the nice LE asks for your firearm due to his safety (Heller I believe) they now has physical control of your firearm, they then run the S/N through their spiffy vehicle computer, and if it comes up listed as stolen, it is immediately seized as mandated by FBI directives and your butt is immediately arrested.

please note: principle access is LE, FFLs have no access to the system.
 

F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
942
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming
OK, some have said some states make it illegal to cover a serial number, but that would make every S&W revolver with factory Goncalo Alves grips and many other after market grips illegal. Can't see that going through.

So that said here is an email I received from the BATFEXYZ about covering the serial number with tape.....



FIPB Regulatory Email inquiries <FIPB@atf.gov>
9/19/12

to me
This is in response to your email to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In your email, you wanted to know if covering a serial number of a firearm with tape be constituted as obscuring.

Under Federal law, it shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed,
obliterated, or altered, or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported
in interstate or foreign commerce.

Merely, attaching black tape to a firearms serial number does not constitute a violation of Federal law.

Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/field.

Regards,
Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF

That said I have the serial number of my every day carry covered with tamper proof tape. Just having my firearm in his grubby little paws does not grant authorization to "search" the serial number unless it is in plain sight or he has Probable Cause to believe the firearm is stolen. It has quit working but I had a video recorder that looked like a Bluetooth ear piece that worked pretty good.

Sure there is probably no way you could succeed in a civil action unless there is the possibility of monetized damages. But there is always the criminal option; 18 U.S. Code § 242 - Deprivation of rights under color of law. You are unlikely to get anywhere but you could be a royal pain in the @ for the offending cop for a while.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
OK, some have said some states make it illegal to cover a serial number, but that would make every S&W revolver with factory Goncalo Alves grips and many other after market grips illegal. Can't see that going through.

So that said here is an email I received from the BATFEXYZ about covering the serial number with tape.....






That said I have the serial number of my every day carry covered with tamper proof tape. Just having my firearm in his grubby little paws does not grant authorization to "search" the serial number unless it is in plain sight or he has Probable Cause to believe the firearm is stolen. It has quit working but I had a video recorder that looked like a Bluetooth ear piece that worked pretty good.

Sure there is probably no way you could succeed in a civil action unless there is the possibility of monetized damages. But there is always the criminal option; 18 U.S. Code § 242 - Deprivation of rights under color of law. You are unlikely to get anywhere but you could be a royal pain in the @ for the offending cop for a while.
+ infinity

I actually thought that I was the only soul on this board that was familiar with Title 18 U.S. Code section 242..
File said complaint with the Sheriff or U.S. marshals or FBI..

My .02
Regards
CCJ
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,175
Location
White Oak Plantation
Ah yes, forgot about the long gun rule. My training training was OCing a pistol as well, I was not. I have the dispatch records in hand, which don't say much. Currently waiting on the body cam footage to be reviewed because according to the PD "Any footage that contains images or personal identifying information about anyone not involved in the incident cannot be released".

...
I'd get a lawyer to confirm the denial of release if they did in fact refuse to release any and all information to you. You and your friend were the detainees and should have every right to the information. Is it possible under CO law that their refusal to release the information is a violation of a statute? Granted, there may be no penalty for compliance. File a civil suit to get a judge have the offending cop shop release the information. Then sue the offending cop shop for legal fees as well. If they have in fact violated the letter of the law then a judge will find in your favor and do not accept any gag order. Get in front of a jury if needs be. That cop shop must be held up as a violator of a citizen's rights under the color of law.
 

SeanO

Banned
Joined
Jun 26, 2017
Messages
11
Location
Colorado
Ok so I'm going to try to answer everyone's questions...

What might make me whole? $500 for my undue stress caused by having rifles pointed at me and bring proned out.(it's about principal not money). The officers fired and the rest of the department retrained.

Have I contacted the sheriff yet? Not yet, I'm weary of filing a complaint because once there's an investigation they can deny the video, I want the video first.

Normally, I do have a camera running when OC, this time I wasnt thinking about it as I didn't look it as OCing but training.

I was allowed to inspect the two body cam videos involved and audio recorded the viewing. I've been told I can inspect but not copy, which is in direct conflict with the AG's opinion that if a video can be then it can be viewed as well.

I'm on my phone so details are hard to type out but I'll update again when i get to a computer.
 

wabbit

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
152
Location
briar patch, NM
OK, some have said some states make it illegal to cover a serial number, but that would make every S&W revolver with factory Goncalo Alves grips and many other after market grips illegal. Can't see that going through.

So that said here is an email I received from the BATFEXYZ about covering the serial number with tape.....

to me
This is in response to your email to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In your email, you wanted to know if covering a serial number of a firearm with tape be constituted as obscuring.

Under Federal law, it shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

Merely, attaching black tape to a firearms serial number does not constitute a violation of Federal law.

Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/field.

Regards,
Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF

That said I have the serial number of my every day carry covered with tamper proof tape. Just having my firearm in his grubby little paws does not grant authorization to "search" the serial number unless it is in plain sight or he has Probable Cause to believe the firearm is stolen. It has quit working but I had a video recorder that looked like a Bluetooth ear piece that worked pretty good.

Sure there is probably no way you could succeed in a civil action unless there is the possibility of monetized damages. But there is always the criminal option; 18 U.S. Code § 242 - Deprivation of rights under color of law. You are unlikely to get anywhere but you could be a royal pain in the @ for the offending cop for a while.
first, 5+ years ago you were told by the Defensive Carry dot com's lead moderator, hotshot, in 2012, when you first posted this silly crap initially on their site:

quote: Some observations... if an LEO wants to run the number on your gun for any reason, he will do so. He will remove the tape to look at the number. If he's nice, he'll put the tape back.

If you dealt with the ATF more than once, you would realize that there is no "horse's mouth" as you can get varing (sic) opinions about the same issue, all of the in conflict with each other. The ATF is well known for this and it is well documented.

Running a serial number, for any reason, is within the scope of an LEO performing his duties. Placing a piece of black tape, bubblegum or melted chocolate over the serial number for him to remove does not constitute an illegal search, no matter how you try to make it so or twist it as such.

Implying that it was an illegal search is laughable, but hey, don't let me tell you different if thats (sic)what you really believe. I suppose that moving a cigarette pack, or a snuff can off of the VIN number on your dash board of your truck so that I could read it would constitute an illegal search to eh?

I'm going to put this one in the same category as the people that tell me I can not arrest them for violating the law because they are a sovereign citizen and the handout that they give me proves that I cant or that only the elected Sheriff can legally transport them to jail.

Do what you want, beleive (sic) what you want. Its a free country. For the most part. unquote. http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/general-firearm-discussion/148688-placing-black-tape-over-serial-number-federal-violation-3.html

second, as pointed out by hotshot it is not a ruling by the ATF and as such wouldn't stand up in court for you let alone anybody else who "read it on the internet on a gun forum" so it has to be true to defend themselves judicially.

third, again, pointed out by hotshot, if the LE removes your sticker, tape, whatever, and lo and behold the firearm is listed in the NCIC database, firearm is confiscated, you are immediately handcuffed and hauled off to jail and the meter on paying to defend yourself is is started and running.

fourth, you luck out the firearm isn't listed in the NCIC database, now what are you going to do jump up and down complain? as the OP is finding out, no legal beagles want to waste their time on it as there is no profit center, tho perhaps charles from CA wants to represent you, tho he isn't really an attorney.

fifth, you insist on spewing this bogus information like it is a get out of jail card to preclude the officer who stops you from taking the firearm away from you "for their protection" while you cool your heels in your car or if you irritate the officer enough you find yourself sitting on the side of the road handcuffed "for their protection" is a disservice of spreading misinformation to the masses and could and prob will get someone in trouble.

sorry to pop the bubble, but your letter is worthless as is your advice to the folks here and as pointed out in 2012, "believe what you want to!"
 

SeanO

Banned
Joined
Jun 26, 2017
Messages
11
Location
Colorado
Next question... The know there won't be case law for this...

What's everyone's opinion on an officer seizing a firearm, we know officer safety is the only reason for seizure in a Terry stop but..... The officer says something along the lines of "were worried about the public not us".. the officer states he's not worried about officer safety and there are no bystanders at the time for there to be immediate concern for the public... Just a thought to ponder
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Next question... The know there won't be case law for this...

What's everyone's opinion on an officer seizing a firearm, we know officer safety is the only reason for seizure in a Terry stop but..... The officer says something along the lines of "were worried about the public not us".. the officer states he's not worried about officer safety and there are no bystanders at the time for there to be immediate concern for the public... Just a thought to ponder
Did you record the statements? If no, nothing to ponder.. If yes, probably still nothing to ponder..

CCJ
 
Top