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OC discussion on Lightfighter

imperialism2024

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J.A.G. wrote:
Guys,

You are missing my point. For one, I'm sort of playing devils advocate here. I am like you all, and wish that carrying a firearm wherever I go should be the norm. I shouldn't have to apply for a permit or license that gives me permission to exercise a right, nor should I have to worry about eating the pavement if a soccer mom sees me open carrying down Beverly Blvd and calls the cops, and they respond with excessive force. Believe me, I want what you want... to be able to protect myself and my loved ones.

But... like I said. If you are in a situation, and you need to use lethal force to protect yourself or someone else - the jury might not see it the way you do. The opposing lawyer will not see it that way either, and will do everything in his/her power to make it look like you are a crazy gun toting freak looking for a gunfight. And with todays courts, and liberal society and media, who do you think is going to win?

Yes, there are cases where a person defended themselves, and it was seen as self defense, and they were not prosecuted. But there have been cases showing the opposite.
So, am I getting it right that you're suggesting open carry might be considered an aggravating factor in a self-defense shooting, as opposed to concealed carry?

If so, then we should give up on carrying anything larger than .22LR, say no to handloads, and carry without a round chambered, as I've been told that all of the above will make it seem like you're looking for a gunfight.
 

J.A.G.

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dude. read what I said. I said a LAWYER will do everything in his/her power to make it look like you are a crazy gun toting freak looking for a gunfight.

You seem to think that I am against carrying a gun... ? I wouldn't be here if that was the case. I'm merely pointing out THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT... I am trying to prepare myself for the instance that if I do need to use a firearm to protect myself, I can have a slight understanding of what to expect.
 

imperialism2024

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J.A.G. wrote:
dude. read what I said. I said a LAWYER will do everything in his/her power to make it look like you are a crazy gun toting freak looking for a gunfight.

You seem to think that I am against carrying a gun... ? I wouldn't be here if that was the case. I'm merely pointing out THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT... I am trying to prepare myself for the instance that if I do need to use a firearm to protect myself, I can have a slight understanding of what to expect.
Fair enough. From the other side, though, carrying a concealed gun could be construed as being deceptive, sneaky, assassin-like.

An interesting take, surely, but tangental to the main topic of this thread, i.e. the tactical soundness of open carry.
 

SANDCREEK

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Back-tracking this thread to the Wal-Mart OC incident gone bad, I'm on the threshold of public OC'ing here in Colorado Springs. I have a CO CWP so OC is not a necessity. OC and CC bothare good excercises of the 2A.CC ONLY advocates need to remember that alot of law-abiding citizensare not "eligible" for CC. That doesn't make them "criminals", and they have the right to excercise the 2A for self-defense also. I am concerned though that some folks are not "clicking on" the WISDOM button. The free excercise of ALL of our civil rights reaches its limit when we injure another person , or interfere with the free excercise of THEIR rights. " Extremism ALWAYS brings about its own destruction".(my favorite quote) Another quote I try to remember is " PERCEPTION is 95 percent of REALITY." Wal-Mart probably will not be on my list of top OC locations. I even expect "sineage" to be posted eventually at W/M's due in large part to the accidental shooting of the CCW's granddaughter last week -in a SAM's or W/M. Given their long-standing policy of escorting gun purchaser's out of the stores- why would I think they would be comfortable with a non LEO OC'ing ON THEIR PROPERTY ? Another thought - if I think I fit the "20 year-old redneck" profile.....the W/M Manager/employee 's perception of me probably matches my own.The present day climate towards GUNS is skewed against them for obvious reasons. The day hasn't yet arrived when we can expect strangers to be "comfortable" with an ordinary citizen wearing a BIG GUN.Maybe (?)...make an attempt to DRESS, and otherwise groom myselfso as to present a profile of "someone" (?) .......(think hard now) who the general population might PERCEIVE as rightly "entitled" to carry a side-arm ? The general perception of such a "person" is driven into their brains every night on "48 Hours", and every "cops & robbers" flick produced by Hollywood. Never forget how much influence "Tinsel-town" has on the PERCEPTIONS of the American public. Looking forward to the day when folks won't bat an eye at the sight of OC - but it ain't that day yet. That's my thoughts.
 

J.A.G.

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So here is a story I read that happened very recently. Below the story is a response from someone who clearly points out what will happen in the event of using your firearm to protect someone.

WARNING - THIS STORY IS PRETTY F***ED UP...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/16/toddler.killed.ap/index.html

Police shoot man as he beats toddler

-Man beat child behind pickup truck on dark, rural California road

-Passing motorists tried to stopped beating, called police

-Police shoot, kill man

-Boy pronounced dead at hospital

TURLOCK, California (AP) -- Police killed a 27-year-old man as he kicked, punched and stomped a toddler to death despite other people's attempts to stop him on a dark, country road, authorities said.

Investigators on Sunday were trying to establish the relationship between the suspect and the child they say he killed Saturday night. The Stanislaus County coroner said the boy appeared to be between 1 and 2 years old based on his size, according to county sheriff's deputy Royjindar Singh.

"It's been a long night of wondering, 'Why?' -- not only for the officers and the passers-by who stopped and tried to help out, but for anyone. Why would somebody do this?" Singh said.

Singh said the coroner does not plan to confirm the identities of the suspect and victim until Monday. Because his injuries were so severe, the child will have to be identified through a blood or DNA test, he said.

The suspect had a child's car seat in the back of his four-door pickup truck. The truck caught the attention of an elderly couple at 10:13 p.m. Saturday because it was stopped in the two-lane road facing the wrong direction, Singh said.

As they got closer, the couple saw the man beating the toddler behind his truck and throwing the child on the ground, according to Singh. Two or three other cars stopped, an unusual number to be passing through the remote area surrounded by a dairy, a cow pasture, a cornfield and a farmhouse, he said.

"What we got from witnesses is he was punching, slapping, kicking, stomping, shaking," Singh said. "They tried to intervene and get involved, but their efforts really didn't have an effect. The suspect was engaged in what he was doing. He just pushed them off and went back to it."

A sheriff's helicopter responding to emergency calls from the area landed in a cow pasture at 10:19 p.m. carrying a Modesto police officer who shot the man to death after he refused an order to stop beating the child, Singh said.

Paramedics tried to resuscitate the toddler, who was not breathing when they arrived. The boy was taken to a local hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

No children within the dead boy's age range have been reported kidnapped or missing in Stanislaus County, Singh said.

The killing happened on Bradbury Road about 10 miles west of Turlock, a city about halfway between Sacramento and Fresno.

--------------------------------------------------------
The Response...(after much talk about "what I would have done")

In more and more jurisdictions all the time, firearms are easily accessible to sworn LE and the folks who pwn them.

Reacting appropiately (with a firearm) to this situation where it unfolded would mean:

1. Stop car. Assess situation. Realize action is necessary. Summon LE. Ignore dispather's direction to stay in your car and observe. Ignore dispatcher's advice against selecting a weapon. Ignore (sworn) dispatch supervisor when you mantion that you're gonna intervene with a firearm.

2. Exit vehicle to get to trunk (only place to legally store firearm in more and more jurisdictions), hoping that tweaker dude doesn't decide you need a beating, too.

3. Remove your firearm from its locked container, keeping eyes on tweaker dude.

4. Load a mag (some jurisdictions are cool with loaded mags, others will be up your ass over it), keeping eyes on tweaker dude.

5. Yup, step 5 you're FINALLY in the fight. Weapon into operation. Angle of approach that minimizes chance of unintended consequences. Acquire. Engage decisively so tweaker dude can't pull a Jason on you while you're doing what you can for the child.

6. As you're providing TCCC to child, concoct a story about how you were JUST COMING HOME DIRECTLY FROM THE FIRING RANGE.

7. Hire a lawyer. And a therapist. The lawyer will broker your new relationship with the criminal justice system as a person if interest in a homicide investigation. If you don't need the therapists's help dealing with your actions on contact, you will need it through the processs of surrendering your weapon, being fingerprinted, photographed, and deposed over the course of the homicide investigation you're now the center of. Answer politely as people who have never been in a gunfight ask you "Why four shots? Why not just two?" Hope that the dimwits in the PD and the courts don't simply process your information as an arrest, which they absolutely will if there isn't a skilled court liaison officer (plenty of those at the station house early on a Sunday morning) or officer of the court standing over their shoulder telling them how to process the case.

8. Assuming that you're cleared of wrongdoing in the homicide you commited, write another check to your lawyer so that he can ensure that the declaration of factual innocence extends to the removal of your photograph and your fingerprints from the databases populated by others under investigation for homicide.

9. Try to find your gun. Might be at the lab (no procedures for releasing guns to material witnesses). Might be in someone's evidence room (byzantine procedures for releasing physical evidence to material witnesses). Know that guns processed as evidence are typically destroyed when the cases are closed. Hope that your prized Sig is #100 and that they destroy guns whenever they get 150. Hope that the investigator and DDA assigned to your case are both gun guys and are both cool with citizens taking action.

And #10: Get a referral from your criminal lawyer for a good civil lawyer. You are now the target of a civil case brought by tweaker dude's family (specifically the mother of that child--whose life you changed forever b/c you killed the child's only male role model and were medically negligent in the amateurish care you provided her child). The exculpatory findings from the criminal beef are unevenly admisable. Time for another visit to the therapist.

No gun? Substitute "tire iron," but round about Step 5 insert narrative about NOT getting said tire iron taken away and working another assault into the scenario.

And my wife wonders why I prefer the simple justice available on the streets of Baghdad...

----------------------------------------------------------

Its a long read, but its worth it.
 

AnaxImperator

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I stated my piece over at LF, andthere are a lot of valid points & arguments thatI've read on the thread..... some boneheadones as well..... but otherwise no different than other OC topicsat otherdiscussion forums.
 

SANDCREEK

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Today I OC'd in public for the first time here in Colorado Springs. Maybe no big deal - but for a former Texan living under the No OC cloud for years - I was mentally prepared for some raised eyebrows - even an approach by some store Management type - NOPE. I have OC'd when fueling-up gas pumps, and checking the mail box, etc. Today my wife & I visited 2 "Goodwill Stores", and ate lunch at the "Super Salad". I decided to "wade in to the water" gently - so my wife carried the GL23 CC and sported my wife's little S & W 637 "Airweight" (J Frame) in a IWB holster with shirt tucked in. I don't think anybody even noticed ! If they did - nothing was said . I had my "script" all prepared - in case I was confronted , but no response at all. Now I admit - the little S&W .38 is hardly detectable against the background of a black & :celebrategrey sport shirt.- my wife had a hard time spotting it when I asked her how it looked. I really had hoped "somebody" would notice - how else can we incourage others to OC if they don't know we are. Well,we'll see what happens when I try out the Gl23. It's probably 2X in visibility compared to the .38. I should point out that my wife & I are both 65, and she is disabled - walks with a cane or uses a disability scooter/wheel chair. So we don't fit the profile of "desperados".
 

AnaxImperator

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SandCreek-Congratson your first time OC'ing, and it being without incident or headache
badger_1.gif
. I'm in Colorado Springs, my first OC experience was here as well, and it went swimmingly.

SANDCREEK wrote:
Now I admit - the little S&W .38 is hardly detectable against the background of a black & grey sport shirt.- my wife had a hard time spotting it when I asked her how it looked. I really had hoped "somebody" would notice - how else can we incourage others to OC if they don't know we are.
I'd be carefulcarrying acompact handgunwith anIWB holster, worn with a tucked-in shirt. It'd be pretty easy for the shirt to start becoming untucked, and fold/drape over the grip of the pistol..... thereby rendering it "concealed" by a cranky & persnickety LEO..... and also deciding to get tangled up between your hand & grip when the pistol needs to be drawn fast.

And not to be quarrelsome, but I don't think it's our duty to encourage others to OC if they notice the fact that we're OC'ing..... or purposely draw attention to an OC'd pistol in the hope that it'll afford the opportunity to provide such encouragement. If the questioner asks specifically about OC'ing for themselves, then by all means, encourage away! My SOP is that I don't offer any information or opinions on anythingother than for what is specifically asked of me..... at least until I've determined that the person asking weighted questions or baiting me into an anti-gun debate/argument. Once I know that the person is merely curious, friendly, and open to/accepting of gun-ownership & the open-carry of handguns, I'll gladly take the time to have a detailed & encouraging discussion.
 

imperialism2024

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AnaxImperator wrote:
I'd be carefulcarrying acompact handgunwith anIWB holster, worn with a tucked-in shirt. It'd be pretty easy for the shirt to start becoming untucked, and fold/drape over the grip of the pistol..... thereby rendering it "concealed" by a cranky & persnickety LEO..... and also deciding to get tangled up between your hand & grip when the pistol needs to be drawn fast.
Moral of the story: Carry a large-frame revolver with 7-8" barrel. :celebrate
 

XD-GEM

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SANDCREEK wrote:
I should point out that my wife & I are both 65, and she is disabled - walks with a cane or uses a disability scooter/wheel chair.


Please pardon me for grinning at this. When I read it, I got a mental picture of a gang of 65+ folks on scooters like an elderly version of a biker gang from a really bad movie. It's the future for bad-ass biker gang members who live that long - they become grumpy-ass scooter gang members.:cool:

BTW congrats on a peaceful OC experience.
 

XD-GEM

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I OCed at both a Walmart and a Sam's Club today. No one bothered me and I 'm fairly certain that the off-duty deputy doing security at the Sam's noticed me. The company's official policy is to defer to the state laws in effect at any store. Since OC is perfectly legal here in Louisiana, the "bladed and disengaging" incident shouldn't happen. When something similar (but far less vocal) happened to someone on this board at aWalmart near Baton Rouge, he was able to defuse the situation by calmly offering to go with the security person to the manager's office and call Bentonville. He told the security guy what the policy was and the guy let him go without any further incident.

Demeanor can be a very powerful aspect of OC in terms of calming those who may be scared or uncomfortable at the sight of a gun. (I'm not talking about BGs, just ordinary citizens; I'll leave tactical discussion to those who know better.)
 

marshaul

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Mjolnir wrote:
Here is the story now see if you are able to take a step back & objectivley read the story and put yourself in as a observer. However, you can NOT be subjective on the subject, you must look at this from a neutral 3rd party perspective:
...SNIP...

I fail to see the point of your story. What you described was an ex-cop security guard on a power trip, acting outside his authority. Please explain how this demonstrates that criminals (the kind without a badge) are likely to target people who OC.

All in all, the only thing your story does is reinforce the general perception on ODCO (and the corresponding reality) that the only encounters that OC is likely to engender are encounters with LEOs (former LEOs, as the case may be) with too much testosterone and not enough respect for human rights.
 

ODA 226

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deepdiver wrote:
I frequently CC the same way I OC but with the addition of a sports coat or light jacket. When doing so, I keep my keys in my coat pocket. It takes very little extra motion to swing the sports coat/jacket back with my strong side hand as I reach my pistol.
In order to deliver a CONSISTANTLY smooth draw when CCing with a vest, shirt or a jacket, use your WEAK hand to GRAB the garment and raise the garment as HIGH as you can and simultaniously draw your weapon, present the weapon and fire. It is my experience that there are too many variables that can go wrong using the "Sweep" method, such as the garment snagging on the weapon or your thumb missing the edge of the garment. Practice GRABBING and YANKING the garment as high as you can and you will find that your can achieve a faster, more positive draw consistantly.
The downside to both of those CC methods is that body movement and natural daily life movement can expose the pistol briefly. The upside is that I can draw nearly as quickly from them as I can from OC. What's the adage? A quick draw is a smooth draw or something like that?
In the Special Forces Community our adage is, "SMOOTH IS FAST!" I live by that creed! There are, as you stated so well, no absolute truths. If something different works for you, USE IT! This technique has served me well over many years. Give it a try and if it works for you too, USE IT!

I don't think there are any universal truths here or absolutes.
 

deepdiver

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ODA 226 wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
I frequently CC the same way I OC but with the addition of a sports coat or light jacket. When doing so, I keep my keys in my coat pocket. It takes very little extra motion to swing the sports coat/jacket back with my strong side hand as I reach my pistol.
In order to deliver a CONSISTANTLY smooth draw when CCing with a vest, shirt or a jacket, use your WEAK hand to GRAB the garment and raise the garment as HIGH as you can and simultaniously draw your weapon, present the weapon and fire. It is my experience that there are too many variables that can go wrong using the "Sweep" method, such as the garment snagging on the weapon or your thumb missing the edge of the garment. Practice GRABBING and YANKING the garment as high as you can and you will find that your can achieve a faster, more positive draw consistantly.
The downside to both of those CC methods is that body movement and natural daily life movement can expose the pistol briefly. The upside is that I can draw nearly as quickly from them as I can from OC. What's the adage? A quick draw is a smooth draw or something like that?
In the Special Forces Community our adage is, "SMOOTH IS FAST!" I live by that creed! There are, as you stated so well, no absolute truths. If something different works for you, USE IT! This technique has served me well over many years. Give it a try and if it works for you too, USE IT!

I don't think there are any universal truths here or absolutes.
I do use the grab and yank with sweaters and shirts. I have tried it with my primary outerwear and find it does not work well, doesn't always clear the weapon depending on body position and sometimes hangs on a few jackets that have elastic in the waist.

However, we were taught a specific sweep method in CC class (as well as the weak hand grab and yank method) that is quite effective for my primary jackets, winter coats and suit/sports coats. You make an "L" with your hand, put your thumb high on your sternum (above where the garment naturally falls together, slide it down to about the bottom of your sternum and then quickly straight back to where you hand is directly above your sidearm, and now your hand is positioned perfectly to reach straight down to draw. I assume this is pretty standard. I also find it especially effective as I expect that if I ever need a quick draw I'm going to be starting with my hands in some variation of the "interview position". The sweep allows me to use my weak hand if needed to deflect or distract as I draw.

I think this is an excellent case of knowing your weapon position, your clothes and your abilities. The same thing doesn't work for everyone and nothing is the best for every situation.

All that being said, ODA226, I respect your knowledge and experience to an extent such that I am going to go back through my typical outer-garments and retry the grab and yank and see if I reach a different conclusion.
 

ODA 226

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Deep,

Another reason I choose the grab and yank over the sweep, is because you want to have one draw that works for all type of clothing. The grab and yank cover most any type of clothing that you may wear.

Imagine if you've been wearing a vest or jacket and practicing a sweep and then comes the day when you need your pistol the most and you're wearing a cardigan! The first thing most people (including myself) would do, would to start a sweep draw and then realize that that dog won't hunt. This is one of the reasons that I always carry my weapon in the same place...strong side appendix.

Anyway, like I said take what works best for you and bin the rest! Cheers!
 

deepdiver

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ODA 226 wrote:
Deep,

Another reason I choose the grab and yank over the sweep, is because you want to have one draw that works for all type of clothing. The grab and yank cover most any type of clothing that you may wear.

Imagine if you've been wearing a vest or jacket and practicing a sweep and then comes the day when you need your pistol the most and you're wearing a cardigan! The first thing most people (including myself) would do, would to start a sweep draw and then realize that that dog won't hunt. This is one of the reasons that I always carry my weapon in the same place...strong side appendix.

Anyway, like I said take what works best for you and bin the rest! Cheers!
:what: Cardigan? I wouldn't need a gun because my somewhat fashion obsessed fiancee would have already killed me.

I do understand what you are saying ODA. I'll keep practicing with all of this in mind.
 

ODA 226

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deepdiver wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:
Deep,

Another reason I choose the grab and yank over the sweep, is because you want to have one draw that works for all type of clothing. The grab and yank cover most any type of clothing that you may wear.

Imagine if you've been wearing a vest or jacket and practicing a sweep and then comes the day when you need your pistol the most and you're wearing a cardigan! The first thing most people (including myself) would do, would to start a sweep draw and then realize that that dog won't hunt. This is one of the reasons that I always carry my weapon in the same place...strong side appendix.

Anyway, like I said take what works best for you and bin the rest! Cheers!
:what: Cardigan?
I knew you'd catch that! LOL!:D
 

deepdiver

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ODA 226 wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:
Deep,

Another reason I choose the grab and yank over the sweep, is because you want to have one draw that works for all type of clothing. The grab and yank cover most any type of clothing that you may wear.

Imagine if you've been wearing a vest or jacket and practicing a sweep and then comes the day when you need your pistol the most and you're wearing a cardigan! The first thing most people (including myself) would do, would to start a sweep draw and then realize that that dog won't hunt. This is one of the reasons that I always carry my weapon in the same place...strong side appendix.

Anyway, like I said take what works best for you and bin the rest! Cheers!
:what: Cardigan?
I knew you'd catch that! LOL!:D
So, it was a setup, huh?
718.gif


:p
 
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