Murder Rates: United States vs. Europe Argument

[The Trickster]

All too often enough, whenever I am "debating" my extremely pro-gun stance with anti's, I get the whole, "Europe has strict gun control and the murder rates over there are really low compared to the US" argument thrown at me. While I do have some normal counterarguments to this, I am wondering if anyone here has any they'd like to share?

Thanks is advance.

 

[Cubex DE]

All too often enough, whenever I am "debating" my extremely pro-gun stance with anti's, I get the whole, "Europe has strict gun control and the murder rates over there are really low compared to the US" argument thrown at me. While I do have some normal counterarguments to this, I am wondering if anyone here has any they'd like to share?

Thanks is advance.

This is because Europe reports their crime rates differently.

In the United States, we report all crimes, regardless of arrests made or convictions. The UK only reports crimes where a suspect is convicted of the crime. So really, they are comparing apples to oranges.

The UK actually has a much higher rate of violent crimes being committed than the US does. They just report them as "incidents" instead of crimes.

 

[Citizen]

Population is also much lower then the US. They have more stabings per capita compared to the US.

This one is good, and accurate as far as I know.


Another is simply that any murder victim or violent crime victim deserved the chance to defend himself. As Deanimator says in his signature line: Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

Lets say a woman is held hostage in a failed robbery. The government will deploy a platoon of cops, complete with snipers. Now, how is it that her life was so value-less that she was denied the right to carry a gun to defend herself, but suddenly her life is so valuable to warrant that police response. The logical fallacy is that her life only became valuable and worth preserving after she became a victim.

Same thought extends to the whole of the criminal justice system. How can one justify the vast expense of a murder investigation for the death of someone whose life was so lacking in value that they were not permitted the means to preserve it at the time of the attack? Why imprison a murderer at all? To prevent him from killing another value-less person? Come on.

 

[Ca Patriot]

ere comes my racist (but accurate) post so be prepared......

In America blacks are 13% of the population and hispanics are now 15% of the population.

Total white population is about 64% in America.

If you look at the homicide and violent crime rates among whites in America it is the same as Canada, lower than australia and lower than the white populations of western european countries like england, france, germany, norway, sweeden, belgium.

Simply put, if those countries had blacks and mexicans their crime rates would be MUCH higher.

Violent crime rates among whites in America is basically the same among white Europeans.

 

[twoskinsonemanns]

The most important argument for me is the discussion of freedom vs security. They have a very direct relationship. There are things the government can do, things they want to do, that will drastically decrease crime rate. I personally have sat in a conference where a DHS representative basically blamed the victims in the columbine shooting because , according to him, DHS wants to have permission to place armed soldiers in schools but the people won't go along with it. He went on to explain the sheep vs wolf vs sheepdog analogy. His contempt for the sheep was palpable and revolting.

 

[OldCurlyWolf]

The most important argument for me is the discussion of freedom vs security. They have a very direct relationship. There are things the government can do, things they want to do, that will drastically decrease crime rate. I personally have sat in a conference where a DHS representative basically blamed the victims in the columbine shooting because , according to him, DHS wants to have permission to place armed soldiers in schools but the people won't go along with it. He went on to explain the sheep vs wolf vs sheepdog analogy. His contempt for the sheep was palpable and revolting.

Personally, I am a sheepdog that makes a wolf want to run (often the sheep take me for a wolf). This person, as described as a DHS Rep., with an anus in his cranium is a wolf in sheepdog disguise and needs to be removed.

 

[Citizen]

The most important argument for me is the discussion of freedom vs security. They have a very direct relationship. There are things the government can do, things they want to do, that will drastically decrease crime rate. I personally have sat in a conference where a DHS representative basically blamed the victims in the columbine shooting because , according to him, DHS wants to have permission to place armed soldiers in schools but the people won't go along with it. He went on to explain the sheep vs wolf vs sheepdog analogy. His contempt for the sheep was palpable and revolting.

Well, yes.

But, you understand the OPer is asking for arguments for other people, right?

 

[Deanimator]

Historically, our murder rate with Zyklon B and crew served weapons is a lot lower...

 

[Cubex DE]

Population is also much lower then the US. They have more stabings per capita compared to the US.

The OP is comparing per capita numbers, so the population argument wouldn't apply.

To give an example of what I was saying earlier, imagine if someone broke into your house, threatened you with a gun, stole your stuff, and left. Or, imagine someone robbed a convenience store using a gun. Both of these guys get away. In the US, we would report both of these as gun crimes, even if we didn't catch or convict the criminals, but the UK wouldn't report them as such. They are merely "incidents," not "crimes," until someone is arrested and convicted. Now think about how abhorrent police response times are, and how hard it would be to track someone down using only video footage after they've already left. 3D facial recognition systems only find criminals in Hollywood. It's not surprising that most gun crimes in the UK don't result in arrests or convictions.

Source: Fear in Britain, Gallant, Hills, Kopel, Independence Institute, July 18, 2000.​

To top it off, the cops have admitted that they lie about gun crime all the freakin' time to promote tourism.

Source: Crime Figures a Sham, Say Police, Daily Telegraph, April 1, 1996.​

If we compare the number of convictions in the US for violent crimes to the number of convictions in the UK, the numbers make a lot more sense. In 2008, Britain had a violent crime rate nearly five times higher than the United States (446 vs. 2034 per 100,000).

Source: The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S., Daily Mail, July 3, 2009, citing a joint report of the European Commission and United Nations.​

Ironically, firearm use in crimes in the UK has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned.

Source: Weapons sell for just £50 as suspects and victims grow ever younger, The Times, August 24, 2007.​

Go to GunFacts.info for more.

 

[hermannr]

This: http://www2.dse.unibo.it/zanella/papers/crime-EP.pdf research study is Italian.

It compares Violent Crime (not just murder) and Property Crime,,,in the EU, UK and US 1970 to 2010.

You will be surprised, but then you might not. lots of graphs

 

[sudden valley gunner]

ere comes my racist (but accurate) post so be prepared......

In America blacks are 13% of the population and hispanics are now 15% of the population.

Total white population is about 64% in America.

If you look at the homicide and violent crime rates among whites in America it is the same as Canada, lower than australia and lower than the white populations of western european countries like england, france, germany, norway, sweeden, belgium.

Simply put, if those countries had blacks and mexicans their crime rates would be MUCH higher.

Violent crime rates among whites in America is basically the same among white Europeans.

Yep bigoted and missing much vital information. Ridiculous belief hinting that some people are genetically inclined to be criminals, once proposed by BerettaLady, which I summarily destroyed with other statistics, which conveniently don't fit your chauvinistic, hypocritical, untruthful assertions.

 

[OC for ME]

Yep bigoted and missing much vital information. Ridiculous belief hinting that some people are genetically inclined to be criminals, once proposed by BerettaLady, which I summarily destroyed with other statistics, which conveniently don't fit your chauvinistic, hypocritical, untruthful assertions.

Information (data) not provided but alluded to does not invalidate the claim. The premise is not unsound. What is unsound is the inference that more blacks and Mexicans in Norway ect. would show a similar increase in crime rates in Norway ect. as is the case here in America. Until it happens in Norway ect. it can not logically be inferred that it will happen in Norway ect.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Information (data) not provided but alluded to does not invalidate the claim. The premise is not unsound. What is unsound is the inference that more blacks and Mexicans in Norway ect. would show a similar increase in crime rates in Norway ect. as is the case here in America. Until it happens in Norway ect. it can not logically be inferred that it will happen in Norway ect.

Statistics don't lie but liars use statistics.

Something like 95% of all criminals in the U.S. prisons are from single family (mother homes) this happens equally between the black and white prison population. So genetics has nothing to do with it.

If CA patriot were to study the statistics further without stopping at what satisfies his bigoted view he would see his statistics are meaningless without more info. You also have to take in laws that target minorities, cops who target minorities and a population who may be more forgiving of whites over minorities.

For anyone to suggest that any human is genetically predisposed to crime because of the melatonin level he possesses is F'ing ridiculous to me. Just like Berreta's ladies inference that American Blacks were bred this way.

Since science have proven we all are decedents of an African Women, do we all carry this supposed miscreant gene?

 

[DangerClose]

The UK has a violent crime rate 4-5 times higher than the U.S. That shuts some antis up.

And then there's that whole "what is the real purpose of the Second Amendment?" thing. It's important to get people to understand the Second Amendment isn't about hunting or target shooting.

During World War II, the British government put ads in U.S. magazines asking U.S. citizens to send their personal guns over because they didn't have enough. After the war, the British government destroyed those guns and went back to disarming its population. The British better hope history doesn't repeat itself.

 

[OC for ME]

Statistics don't lie but liars use statistics.

Something like 95% of all criminals in the U.S. prisons are from single family (mother homes) this happens equally between the black and white prison population. So genetics has nothing to do with it.

If CA patriot were to study the statistics further without stopping at what satisfies his bigoted view he would see his statistics are meaningless without more info. You also have to take in laws that target minorities, cops who target minorities and a population who may be more forgiving of whites over minorities.

For anyone to suggest that any human is genetically predisposed to crime because of the melatonin level he possesses is F'ing ridiculous to me. Just like Berreta's ladies inference that American Blacks were bred this way.

Since science have proven we all are decedents of an African Women, do we all carry this supposed miscreant gene?

Statistics can show anything the gatherer of the statistical data wishes to show.

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable. - Mark Twain

I do not hold the view that genetics, other than the human genetic code, has any bearing on a human's lawfulness or criminality. However, cultural and socio-environmental affects are a different matter.

 

[Ca Patriot]

Statistics don't lie but liars use statistics.


If CA patriot were to study the statistics further without stopping at what satisfies his bigoted view he would see his statistics are meaningless without more info. You also have to take in laws that target minorities, cops who target minorities and a population who may be more forgiving of whites over minorities.

Aww, looks like someone got their feelings hurt and had to resort to the name calling.

I suggest you look in the mirror to see the bigot.

 

[Shoobee]

All too often enough, whenever I am "debating" my extremely pro-gun stance with anti's, I get the whole, "Europe has strict gun control and the murder rates over there are really low compared to the US" argument thrown at me. While I do have some normal counterarguments to this, I am wondering if anyone here has any they'd like to share?

Thanks is advance.

You should read this and memorize parts of it first if you want to intelligently debate gun rights:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

Note that he never mentions anything about Europe's murder rates.

 

[WalkingWolf]

I don't know where this idea has come from that England does not have blacks, they do and they always have. In fact they had blacks before America had blacks living here. The percentage may not be as high, but they have always been there.

From what I can find about 2% of the population is black in the British Kingdom.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Aww, looks like someone got their feelings hurt and had to resort to the name calling.

I suggest you look in the mirror to see the bigot.

Nope my feelings are not hurt at all.

I will apologize for not clarifying the first part as a separate quote and that it wasn't pointed at you. But to show that statistics like OC for Me brought out can be used by anybody to show anything.

The second part were you are using statistics to justify your bigoted views I'll stand by.

Am I bigoted ? Yes I am , I am bigoted toward those who feel that one way or another somehow their genetic make up makes them superior to others, regardless of who are making that claim. There are bigots in all ethnic backgrounds.

 

[MAC702]

Instead of correlating their murder rates with only gun freedoms, how about correlating them against policies and cultural norms.

less drug control = less crime.
less adult prostitution control = less crime.
less racial and nationalistic bigotry = less crime.
[strikeout]less capitalism and more socialism = less crime.[/strikeout](*EDIT: withdrawn, didn't think that one through...)

It's not just about less guns.

BTW, a "murder" stat doesn't mean much unless it factors in the weapons used in all of them. It means a lot more when you factor in whether or not the victim was armed or unarmed, and whether the victim being unarmed was required by law.