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Let's Support Dianosis With His Dothan Problem

Bird Dog

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Deacon Blues wrote:
Perhaps you should reconsider your purpose here.
When you guys approach police chiefs and sheriffs to advocate your issues, you should tell them you represent a group of people who run with the herd and have no tolerance for divergent viewpoints. That should lend credibility to your arguments.
 

Bird Dog

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Deacon Blues wrote:
On April 22, Governor Riley signed HB2 into law. Didn't notice, huh?
So what? The issue being discussed is the constitutionality of gun regulation.

Was the short-barreled rifle law declared unconstitutional? If not, my point is still valid.
 

49er

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from: Hyde v Bham


The undisputed facts in this case are that the area in which appellant was arrested had in recent days been the scene of racial unrest and violence. The "natural tendency" of the appellant's open display of the shotgun in question would be to not only provoke, but to invite a breach of the peace. We are of the opinion that the City of Birmingham does not run afoul of this state's constitution by its adoption of this ordinance which seeks to prevent lawless armed confrontations.

... "invite a breach of peace" as with "intent to cause ....."

Section 13A-11-7
Disorderly conduct.
(a) A person commits the crime of disorderly conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:

(1) Engages in fighting or in violent tumultuous or threatening behavior; or

(2) Makes unreasonable noise; or

(3) In a public place uses abusive or obscene language or makes an obscene gesture; or

(4) Without lawful authority, disturbs any lawful assembly or meeting of persons; or

(5) Obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic, or a transportation facility; or

(6) Congregates with other person in a public place and refuses to comply with a lawful order of the police to disperse.

(b) Disorderly conduct is a Class C misdemeanor.

(Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §5525.)




Let's not overlook this detail either:

Birmingham Ordinance No. 79-71
"(a) Firearm: Any instrument used in the propulsion of shot, shell, or bullets by the action of gunpowder exploded within it and which has a barrel twelve inches or more in length.
 

49er

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Bird Dog,
You're missing the point. Several people on here were arguing that -52 could not possibly prevent open carry because they claimed such a restriction would be unconstitutional. I was using Hyde to show that it would not be unconstitutional for -52 to prohibit open carry.

The fact that Birmingham's handgun ordinance may have been preempted by a state law does not change the validity of the Court of Criminal Appeals' ruling that the ordinance did not violate the constitution.

By analogy, a state statute restricting open carry must also be constitutional. Hence, the argument that interpreting -52 to restrict open carry is unconstitutional does not fly.

By the way, a statestatute is not "the law of the land."

Have you ever read Hyde v Bham???

The case is about disorderly conduct and breach of the peace. It was definitely not about handguns.

The fact that it involved using a shotgun to do that does not make it primarilya gun control issue.
 

49er

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Here's what he Bham ordinance in Hyde v Bham said about firearms:
"ORDINANCE NO. 79-71

"AN ORDINANCE TO MAKE UNLAWFUL THE POSSESSION OF A FIREARM IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR WITHIN PUBLIC VIEW UNDER CIRCUMSTANCES TENDING TO PROVOKE A BREACH OF THE PEACE.

"BE IT ORDAINED by the Council of the City of Birmingham as follows:

"Section 1. Definitions.

"For the purpose of this ordinance the following term shall have the following meaning:

"(a) Firearm: Any instrument used in the propulsion of shot, shell, or bullets by the action of gunpowder exploded within it and which has a barrel twelve inches or more in length.

"Section 2. Unlawful To Disturb The Peace Of Others By Possession Of Firearm In Public Place Or Within Public View Under Circumstances Where Possession Would Tend To Provoke Breach Of Peace.


"No person shall disturb the peace of others by having a firearm in his possession in a public place or within public view under circumstances where the natural tendency of such possession would be to provoke a breach of the peace."



That ordinance only restated the principles of our state disorderly conduct statute with emphasis on using firearms to do it. It expressly excluded pistols from the defintion of firearms.
 

Brimstone Baritone

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Bird Dog wrote:
You're missing the point. Several people on here were arguing that -52 could not possibly prevent open carry because they claimed such a restriction would be unconstitutional. I was using Hyde to show that it would not be unconstitutional for -52 to prohibit open carry.

Good point. I'll have to think about that one.

The fact that Birmingham's handgun ordinance may have been preempted by a state law does not change the validity of the Court of Criminal Appeals' ruling that the ordinance did not violate the constitution.

Again, good point. However, now that it has been preempted, the law is unenforceable on those grounds. Why should it be unconstitutional, though? Unless I am reading it wrong, It doesn't outlaw open carry for defense, only open carry with malicious or criminal intent.

By the way, a statestatute is not "the law of the land."

The Constitution is the law of the land. Geez, Mike. :p ;)
 

eye95

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49er wrote:
Here's what he Bham ordinance in Hyde v Bham said about firearms:
"ORDINANCE NO. 79-71

"AN ORDINANCE TO MAKE UNLAWFUL THE POSSESSION OF A FIREARM IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR WITHIN PUBLIC VIEW UNDER CIRCUMSTANCES TENDING TO PROVOKE A BREACH OF THE PEACE.

"BE IT ORDAINED by the Council of the City of Birmingham as follows:

"Section 1. Definitions.

"For the purpose of this ordinance the following term shall have the following meaning:

"(a) Firearm: Any instrument used in the propulsion of shot, shell, or bullets by the action of gunpowder exploded within it and which has a barrel twelve inches or more in length.

"Section 2. Unlawful To Disturb The Peace Of Others By Possession Of Firearm In Public Place Or Within Public View Under Circumstances Where Possession Would Tend To Provoke Breach Of Peace.


"No person shall disturb the peace of others by having a firearm in his possession in a public place or within public view under circumstances where the natural tendency of such possession would be to provoke a breach of the peace."
That ordinance only restated the principles of our state disorderly conduct statute with emphasis on using firearms to do it. It expressly excluded pistols from the defintion of firearms.
Well, that disposes of that whole line of argument.

The law (and therefore, the ruling) is not about regulating the carry of a handgun. It is about outlawing the behavior of breaching the peace by carrying a long gun in such a way as to scare the mess outta folks. Except that it might be too vague, that law would probably still pass constitutional muster today.

The law did not outlaw walking around with a rifle. If one had it slung on his shoulder, folks generally wouldn't be concerned. Now, if he were waving it around...

It would be that waving activity that the law prohibited.

Well done, 49er!
 

Deacon Blues

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Bird Dog wrote:
Deacon Blues wrote:
On April 22, Governor Riley signed HB2 into law. Didn't notice, huh?
So what? The issue being discussed is the constitutionality of gun regulation.

Was the short-barreled rifle law declared unconstitutional? If not, my point is still valid.
My point is that I see no indication that you had any concern over these issues, or AL firearms laws in general, until you felt yourself - or whatever party you are interceding for - under attack.

If your only goal is to justify the actions of the LEAs involved in the Dothan debacle, and you won't accept anything less than total submission of the board, then this discussion will never lead to anyone being enlightened about anything. That is why I suggested that you reconsider your purpose here.
 

Bird Dog

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Deacon Blues wrote:
If your only goal is to justify the actions of the LEAs involved in the Dothan debacle, and you won't accept anything less than total submission of the board, then this discussion will never lead to anyone being enlightened about anything. That is why I suggested that you reconsider your purpose here.

My purpose here is to demonstrate that the law is not as clear cut as some people claim it is and to speak out on behalf of law enforcement officers who are maligned for doing their jobs.

When the law is not clear, officers have discretion about how to interpret it. Sending out New Mexico court cases that don't apply and quoting 1840 Supreme Court decisions out of context in an effort to intimidate the officers into doing what you want is wrong.
 

Bird Dog

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eye95 wrote:
Well, that disposes of that whole line of argument.
That doesn't dispose of anything. It just demonstrates that the open carry of long guns can also be regulated.
 

Brimstone Baritone

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Bird Dog wrote:
My purpose here is to demonstrate that the law is not as clear cut as some people claim it is and to speak out on behalf of law enforcement officers who are maligned for doing their jobs.
That is a noble purpose. I hope you stick around, because I have enjoyed talking with you. :)I agree that we should work harder to support LEOs who are just doing their jobs. I, for one, would comply with any reasonable request made by any officer who treats me with respect, and does not try to violate my rights.

When the law is not clear, officers have discretion about how to interpret it. Sending out New Mexico court cases that don't apply and quoting 1840 Supreme Court decisions out of context in an effort to intimidate the officers into doing what you want is wrong.
When the law is not clear, law enforcement agencies have a duty to adopt policies that align with the city attorney's, or equivalent's, opinion of the law. When the law is not clear, the legislature has a duty to make it more so. When the law is not clear, I have a duty to follow what I determine to be the most reasonable interpretation. When the law is not clear, a jury has the duty to invalidate it.

I'm not against the personal discretion of LEO in situations that are unclear, but the law shouldn't be enforced based on who happens to be working that day. And an officer never has the discretion to violate the rights of a citizen based on their interpretation of an unclear law.
 

Bird Dog

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mcdonalk wrote:
And an officer never has the discretion to violate the rights of a citizen based on their interpretation of an unclear law.

Actually, that's not the case.

According to the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit, "Even constitutionally impermissible conduct might not render government officials liable for civil damages if those actions had not been clearly established as violative of the Constitution when they occurred." Carr v. Tatangelo, 338 F.3d 1259, 1266 (11th Cir. 2003).

According to the U.S. Supreme Court, "Qualified immunity is applicable unless the official's conduct violated a clearly established constitutional right." Pearson v. Callahan, 129 S. Ct. 808, 816 (2009).

In the Eleventh Circuit, "If reasonable public officials could differ on the lawfulness of the defendants' actions, the defendants are entitled to immunity." Kingsland v. City of Miami, 382 F.3d 1220, 1231 (11th Cir. 2004).

The U.S. Supreme Court has also held, "If the law did not put the officer on notice that his conduct would be clearly unlawful, summary judgment based on qualified immunity is appropriate." Saucier v. Katz, 533 U.S. 194, 202 (2001).

Again, the U.S. Supreme Court has said, "The protection of qualified immunity applies regardless of whether the government official's error is a mistake of law, a mistake of fact, or a mistake based on mixed questions of law and fact." Pearson v. Callahan, 129 S. Ct. 808, 815 (2009).

I do agree with yourassertion that the legislature has a responsibility to clarify the law.
 

Kirbinator

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Bird Dog wrote:
Hyde v. City of Birmingham, 392 So. 2d 1226 (Ala. Crim. App. 1980), upheld the following city ordinance as constitutional: "No person shall disturb the peace of others by having a firearm in his possession in a public place or within public view under circumstances where the natural tendency of such possession would be to provoke a breach of the peace."
I think we've already proven this one to be bunk, as the presence of persons carrying firearms at Starbucks hasn't disturbed the peace.
 

Bird Dog

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Kirbinator wrote:
I think we've already proven this one to be bunk, as the presence of persons carrying firearms at Starbucks hasn't disturbed the peace.

You're also missing the point. Hyde simply demonstrates that laws regulating open carry are not necessarily unconstitutional.

This was a Birmingham city ordinance regulating open carry, and the Alabama Court of Criminal Appeals held it wasconstitutional.

The imporant aspect of Hyde is that it refutes the argument that any attempt to regulate open carry (such as 13A-11-52) is unconstitutional.
 

eye95

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Kirbinator wrote:
Bird Dog wrote:
Hyde v. City of Birmingham, 392 So. 2d 1226 (Ala. Crim. App. 1980), upheld the following city ordinance as constitutional: "No person shall disturb the peace of others by having a firearm in his possession in a public place or within public view under circumstances where the natural tendency of such possession would be to provoke a breach of the peace."
I think we've already proven this one to be bunk, as the presence of persons carrying firearms at Starbucks hasn't disturbed the peace.
Don't waste your breath. This guy can't get the concept that the law did not regulate carry. It regulated other behavior while carrying a rifle, and is perfectly reasonable.

He also thinks LEOs can exercise the discretion to violate a citizen's rights just because in some cases he won't be held civilly liable. Pretty bold statements made anonymously on a message board. If he ever let us know who he was, those statements themselves would be damaging against him in a civil suit.

I realize that he is not representative of all LEOs. As I have said before, the officer who stopped me was quite civil, just wrong. The Montgomery DCI is a great guy. He was just wrong. MPD and the City of Montgomery got the message, though.

This LEO seems to think it's OK to violate civil rights, just so he does it in a way that won't make him personally civilly liable.

Seriously, guys, I am one of the most respectful guys here to LEOs and have taken flack for it. And, I still say you shouldn't be wasting your time talking to this guy.
 

Bird Dog

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eye95 wrote:
He also thinks LEOs can exercise the discretion to violate a citizen's rights just because in some cases he won't be held civilly liable.
You just don't get it. If the law was clear enough for the officer to know that he was violating somebody's rights, he would and shouldbe liable.

The problem is that it is not clear that open carry on someone else's private property is legal. That is why the officer has immunity for his interpretation. When reasonable minds can differ on the legality of the conduct, the officer has immunity.

I am in no way advocating the knowing violation of someone's rights.
 

49er

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The courts have ruled that open carry is the only method of bearing arms for defense.

How unclear is this to you:

SECTION 36

Construction of Declaration of Rights.
That this enumeration of certain rights shall not impair or deny others retained by the people; and, to guard against any encroachments on the rights herein retained, we declare that everything in this Declaration of Rights is excepted out of the general powers of government, and shall forever remain inviolate.

[emphais mine]

General powers of government includes legislators, judges, and cops. Is that clear enough?
 

Bird Dog

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49er wrote:
The courts have ruled that open carry is the only method of bearing arms for defense.

How unclear is this to you:

SECTION 36

Construction of Declaration of Rights.
That this enumeration of certain rights shall not impair or deny others retained by the people; and, to guard against any encroachments on the rights herein retained, we declare that everything in this Declaration of Rights is excepted out of the general powers of government, and shall forever remain inviolate.

[emphais mine]

General powers of government includes legislators, judges, and cops. Is that clear enough?

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, all gun laws would be unconstitutional -- and we know they're not.
 

Deacon Blues

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Bird Dog wrote:
Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, all gun laws would be unconstitutional -- and we know they're not.
Shocked as you may be, there are people (myself included) that believe just that. Phrases like "shall not be infringed" (literally, will not be messed with) don't lend themselves to variant interpretations, but we have them anyway. I don't see much chance of overturning every gun law in the country, but I'd be on board if somebody had a real plan.

I hear echoes of "blood in the streets" already...
 

Brimstone Baritone

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Bird Dog, I have a hypothetical situation for you. For the purposes of this situation, we will assume that the legality of open carry has been resolved (either way, and it doesn't really matter which way).

A man, who is visibly armed, is shopping in a store that is open to the public. For no apparent reason (in the view of the man, other viewpoints may vary) this man is approached by law enforcement. Assuming (for the sake of simplicity) that everyone is respectful and no 'situation' develops, I present three possibilities:

1) The man is arrested, perhaps charged with disturbing the peace, a violation of Section 52, or both. His pistol is confiscated, and his carry permit revoked. He is released on bail, but his pistol is not returned (pending the outcome of the trial). I think we would both agree that there are no problems with this scenario. The matter would be decided in a court of law, yes?

2) The man is detained, but is not arrested or charged with anything. His pistol and his permit are confiscated, and not returned at the end of the detainment. There are court cases that can be used to show that this is an unreasonable seizure of property, and thus would likely go to trial in a civil court. Do you believe the officers involved could be held personally liable? If so, why? If not, why not?

3) Same as scenario either 1 or 2, however add the twist that the man is assaulted an robbed while the police are in possession of his firearm. Could the officers be held liable (for his inability to defend himself) under scenario 1? Not likely, but arguably. What about scenario 2?

What if instead of robbed the man was murdered? Would that increase, decrease, or have no effect on the potential liability of the officers involved.

None of your answers will be construed as legal opinion, this is all about your personal beliefs in a hypothetical situation. This is primarily aimed toward Bird Dog, but others are welcome to chime in.
 
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