LEOs wetting themselves over OC...

[Deanimator]

I'm sorry but as much as that was quotable quote material, it's only valid if you're paranoid enough to think every single police officer is out to get you.

It is ABSOLUTELY undeniable that SOME are "out to get you".

Would you care to tell everyone how to tell WHICH ones are before the fact?

Is there an Android app for that?

No good will come from me trusting the police.
No harm will come from me not trusting them.

The ONLY apparent "downside" to me not NOT trusting the police is that it appears to offend them and their supporters. Nigerian "princes" on the internet are probably offended that I don't trust them with my social security number and checking account information. Neither is of the slightest concern to me.

 

[CCinMaine]

It is ABSOLUTELY undeniable that SOME are "out to get you".

Would you care to tell everyone how to tell WHICH ones are before the fact?

Is there an Android app for that?

No good will come from me trusting the police.
No harm will come from me not trusting them.

The ONLY apparent "downside" to me not NOT trusting the police is that it appears to offend them and their supporters. Nigerian "princes" on the internet are probably offended that I don't trust them with my social security number and checking account information. Neither is of the slightest concern to me.

Exactly. It all comes down to what you were told as a kid. Don't talk to strangers. That is what a Leo you never met before is. They are just citizens like us with the exception that they are paid to enforce the law. If you haven't violated the law you have no advantage in talking to them other then if you want to make a new friend.

Beware of stranger danger!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

~SNIPPED~[/I]
But in reality, not every officer is out to get you. I'm sure there's at least one in this world that signed up for altruistic reasons...

So what's your secret to identifying those who are out to get you? There must be an indication.

Why do defense attorneys instruct us to not engage in conversation with police? Really. Why? If the usefulness of a defense attorney's advice is myth, why do they stay in business? Has anyone ever told you there is no value in the advice of your attorney, that police are obligated to be honest and truthful, and should be trusted over the advice you pay for from your attorney, the attorney you hired to get you out of what the police pinned on you?

I had a good friend that was a trial attorney. He had a big ol' stuffed Marlin fish behind his chair, mounted on the wall. It was there as a prop. He'd usually answer questions about dealing with police by referencing that Marlin.

He'd say "Know how that fish got up there?"

"His mouth".


If you are concerned about your police idols becoming lonely.......post this somewhere:

http://www.policesingles.com/

Keep in mind, you are wanting us to trust interacting with a people that experience a 68% failure rate in interpersonal relationships. This is what might be known in some circles as a "clue". Domestic violence is four times more common in police families than in the general population. Police how to inflict pain and leave no marks or bruises. Police have access to surveillance tools like phone taps, police scanners, vehicle tracking devices, and audio and video recording equipment to stalk or monitor your activities. Is this someone you want to have intimate information on you? Your family?

 

[mwaterous]

And there we have it. Somebody attempts to explore the subject, and we've gotten to the point of using phrases like "police idols". Is it really that hard to cope with the fact that not everybody is exactly like you? I'll take my leave of this subject.

Edit: I just read the last paragraph too... you don't even hear what anybody has to say, do you? You just jump on the offensive. I said so what if they're there. If they have a presence. It shouldn't hurt you, so long as they don't tread on any rights. But you've already created the situation in your head, and it will only play out one way. There's no speaking to brick walls.

 

[Citizen]

SNIP If the usefulness of a defense attorney's advice is myth, why do they stay in business? Has anyone ever told you there is no value in the advice of your attorney, that police are obligated to be honest and truthful, and should be trusted over the advice you pay for from your attorney, the attorney you hired to get you out of what the police pinned on you?

+1

I like to use this little conversational device:

What if you could put six of the most influential attorneys in the country on retainer? What would that cost? At $5K each, that's $30K. Then one day you got a cop wants to talk to you, so you call one of those attorney's for advice. And, he tells you not to say anything. Having spent that kind of money, would you take that advice?

Well, you are the beneficiary of just that advice--for free. Six of the most influential attorneys in the country got together and wrote out some advice for you. You've heard it dozens of times on TV. "You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to..." It is called the Miranda Warning. It comes from a case called Miranda vs Arizona. And the six attorneys were US Supreme Court Justices.

 

[Deanimator]

And there we have it.

What we DON'T have is an explanation from you of how I can tell whether a cop is out to get me BEFORE he "gets" me.

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

What we DON'T have is an explanation from you of how I can tell whether a cop is out to get me BEFORE he "gets" me.

Always with the negative waves Moriarty.

 

[hermannr]

I could make the argument that a uniformed police officer is more likely to get shot in a robbery than a plain clothes officer open carrying, I promise it is not the gun drawing the robbers attention. This is what kills me police officers say OC makes you more of a target, I disagree I rarely have people see my gun because they are not looking for it but sometimes there line of sight catches it but thats ok. But I have come to realize that if OC is such a bad idea then why dont police officers wear plain clothes and conceal, OC is bad right?

They act like we are making there job hard or something, that OC makes it impossible for them to tell if your up to no good. Thank the good lord there are some cops that are for OC and recognize its ability to deter crime, educate citizens, and hopefully make there job a little easier. Put it this way usually when I meet with police to roust drunk or high homeless off of properties I manage I OC and have yet to see an officer be against it especially considering the type of people we are dealing with.

Criminals do not openly display their weapons...they hide them...that said,

I don't know about the Open carrying detective not being in danger...Remember the detective that came to help, and brought a sniper rifle...he was shot and killed by the officer he came to help when he refused to be disarmed. That happened on Long Island NY last year.

Which brings to mind the 2nd circuit court oral arguments in Kachalsky V Cacase Westchester Co NY carry permit litigation. The Attorney arguing for the state said: "They can always open carry a rifle if the cannot obtain a license to carry a pistol." Lot of good the right to open carry a rifle did for him eh? NY is screwed up, not just in NYC.

 

[MKEgal]

[when an officer asks "how's your day"]
what is wrong with saying "not bad, how about yours"?

Not a thing, as long as the officer doesn't try to prevent me from going about my business, walking away, continuing my grocery shopping, etc.

Problem is that most people, including officers, use such a question as an opening gambit to get you to converse further, and most of the time I really don't want to converse further with someone who looks exactly like the people who have caused me a bleepload of problems.
Giving the response of "fine", and walking away, would be polite in acknowledging their existance but assertive in that you're continuing on your way.

I'm sorry but as much as that [skunk analogy] was quotable quote material, it's only valid if you're paranoid enough to think every single police officer is out to get you. Are you that paranoid? I'm sure there's reasons to be; it's better to be prepared than to be surprised. But in reality, not every officer is out to get you.

You still haven't offered any advice as to how to tell the law-abiding officers from the abusive ones, before they cause problems, so we can know who is safe to talk with and who we should avoid.

I know there are good cops out there. I know (personally, as friends) one current officer & a couple people who used to be officers who are generally decent people.
I've read accounts of some exceptionally good actions by officers.
But they look just like the bad ones, the ones like Harless (of Canton fame), the ones who are so insecure or better-than-you they can't abide an armed law-abiding citizen.

My friend who works for the local PD looks just like the several local officers who have done illegal things to me & cost me thousands in legal fees defending myself against false accusations.

And far too often, the bad ones aren't stopped by their co-workers when they do something bad (as in Canton). Those co-workers may not actually be bad, but they're letting it continue, which is the next worst thing & does nothing to protect (or improve) the overall reputation of LEO.

 

[Citizen]

Always with the negative waves Moriarty.

Careful. You're giving away your age.


[video=youtube;KuStsFW4EmQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ[/video]

 

[papa bear]

What we DON'T have is an explanation from you of how I can tell whether a cop is out to get me BEFORE he "gets" me.

none needs to be given . assume that every cop is out to get you and you will always be right.

remember what Jeff Cooper said, you can always be on yellow alert.

 

[Deanimator]

Always with the negative waves Moriarty.

Wasn't he one of the guys who WASN'T decapitated by a German 88?

 

[Deanimator]

And far too often, the bad ones aren't stopped by their co-workers when they do something bad (as in Canton). Those co-workers may not actually be bad, but they're letting it continue, which is the next worst thing & does nothing to protect (or improve) the overall reputation of LEO.

It is so extraordinary for "good" cops to REPORT bad ones (never mind actually intervening to protect a citizen) that it both:

1. Makes the news
2. Almost ALWAYS provokes threats and or acts of retaliation by other cops

A cop who knows and doesn't AT LEAST report is by definition a BAD cop.

Just ask any cop what he'd think of a citizen who knew who'd assaulted or killed a cop and DIDN'T report it.

There are NO greater exponents in this country of the "stop snitching" movement than cops themselves.

 

[Deanimator]

none needs to be given . assume that every cop is out to get you and you will always be right.

remember what Jeff Cooper said, you can always be on yellow alert.

I don't assume that they ARE, merely that they COULD be.

That's more than good enough to protect me.

Now I DO pretty much assume that everything they say that's not instantly verifiable to be a lie. But then not only are they allowed to lie, they're ENCOURAGED to.

I ignore EVERY email I get purporting to come from a "Nigerian prince", or the widows of Khaddafi, Chun Du Hwan or Saddam Hussein. It's POSSIBLE that I've missed out on millions of dollars in free money. Not believing them or most things that cops say are risks I'm willing to take.

 

[Deanimator]

Careful. You're giving away your age.


[video=youtube;KuStsFW4EmQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ[/video]

A co-worker recently admitted to having NO idea in the world who Jimmy Cagney was.

I'm VERY happy to give away my age in such circumstances.

 

[Citizen]

A co-worker recently admitted to having NO idea in the world who Jimmy Cagney was.

Oh, man. That is unAmerican, the dirty rat.


I have to admit, I didn't realize Cagney could dance until I stumble on the two clips below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlvB4xk4LNQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOoNOs8Ql28

 

[davidmcbeth]

Policeman safety is an issue that has not merit in an OC encounter

You are OCing, not bothering anyone right. Then a cop sees you are carrying. You are not walking towards him or taking any action that could be considered as endangering anyone.

Now the cop decides he wants to talk to you; HE begins the unwanted encounter. Now he wants your gun. I don't think so. Police safety is for when they are enforcing laws, not harassing people without cause.

The second amendment means NOTHING if a cop can walk up to any law abiding citizen and ask for them to hand them their gun and its required to be surrendered.

 

[Citizen]

You are OCing, not bothering anyone right. Then a cop sees you are carrying. You are not walking towards him or taking any action that could be considered as endangering anyone.

Now the cop decides he wants to talk to you; HE begins the unwanted encounter. Now he wants your gun. I don't think so. Police safety is for when they are enforcing laws, not harassing people without cause.

The second amendment means NOTHING if a cop can walk up to any law abiding citizen and ask for them to hand them their gun and its required to be surrendered.

True as far as it goes, but our experience has been that the 4th Amendment (search and seizure) is violated first.

In fact, we've had a few cops on this forum tossing out a red-herring by saying they have no intention of violating anyone's 2A right, while conveniently not mentioning there was no RAS for the seizure in the first place. This was several years ago. We had to beat them senseless with 4A case law (that they should have already known), and prove we knew enough 4A case law that they gave up their pathetic attempts at misdirection.

The same thing went down with regard to 5A silence. A couple/few cops argued and argued and argued that if you have nothing to hide or doing nothing wrong then you should talk to the cop. It was only after we plastered Miranda, Ullman, and Reiner across their computer screens to prove we actually weren't going to be misled that they finally shut up.

Sick bastards.

 

[F350]

Beyond the cordial greeting aspect, what does the cordial greeting accomplish other than you are greeted by a seemingly nice person. How does the cordial greeting confirm to that LEO that you are a LAC? I'm a little dense at times, you'll need to throw me a bone on this one.

Obviously you haven't spent much time in a police cruiser to see the reaction of people when they see cops. Just pull into a Stop-n-Rob for a cold drink and you can see the cockroaches scatter, only the most pathological criminal can maintain their composure when greeted by LEO, asked "How's it goin'" and the common scum bag goes into a 5 min explanation full of stutterin' and non connected statements and avoiding eye contact, seen it many times.

So when the cop sees you in a store full of people and singles you out for a greeting, he can tell in 2-3 words if you are someone worthy of additional attention, remember in Terry LEO can rely on training and experience to decide if an investigative stop is warranted.

 

[davidmcbeth]

Obviously you haven't spent much time in a police cruiser to see the reaction of people when they see cops. Just pull into a Stop-n-Rob for a cold drink and you can see the cockroaches scatter, only the most pathological criminal can maintain their composure when greeted by LEO, asked "How's it goin'" and the common scum bag goes into a 5 min explanation full of stutterin' and non connected statements and avoiding eye contact, seen it many times.

So when the cop sees you in a store full of people and singles you out for a greeting, he can tell in 2-3 words if you are someone worthy of additional attention, remember in Terry LEO can rely on training and experience to decide if an investigative stop is warranted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY_A1500sI4

Mind readers they are..

What "training is this?" lol Most cops are just HS graduates, not psychiatric experts ...