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PALO

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The difference is, I have rights, and the government does not. The citizens have the authority and right to demand that government do nothing which the citizens have not decided there is a need for. And, if we were smart, we'd decide there is no need for this crap.

You never did reveal whether your apologia is professionally-inspired, although I think the answer to that is increasingly clear.

the govt. has both authority and responsibility. and again when you can provide a rational argument for why it's a BAD idea for snipers at the super bowl, get back to me.

there is no apologia here. i am as fierce a critic of police misconduct as anybody. there is, however, an evidence, law based rational analysis on my part, and on the other's part a mostly hystrerical,emotion based, "evil riflez derp derp" based argument from opponents of snipers at the super bowl.

yes, the citizens (and cops are citizens too. it is fallacious to set up a false dichotomy of citizens and cops. cops are citizens too) have a right to demand the govt. do nothing.
and fortunately, most intelligent rational citizens have no problem with snipers at the super bowl.

if you can create a public groundswell of support against this logical and intelligent use of police resources, then knock yourself out
 

ncwabbit

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palo quote: i can also point ot incidents of people lawfully carrying concealed who have committed murder with their lawfully carried firearms, but that doesn't vitiate the policy argument for an armed citzenry. unquote

could i have a cite?

thanks...

wabbit
 

Aknazer

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Police snipers are not some new thing. They've existed for quite awhile. Some of them are former Marine and Army snipers.

No one is saying that they are new. People are questioning the need and increasing regularity of their deployment.
 

Aknazer

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SNIP
...when you start with the "need" premise, you poison the argument...

As pointed out the government doesn't have rights. So I would argue that yes the government does need to show an actual "need" for something in order for the citizens to allow the government to do something. Especially given how governments are notorious for infringing upon the rights of its citizens along with abuses of power. There are plenty of things that when looked at in a vacuum aren't really an issue, but when looked at in the bigger picture help contribute to the overall problem.
 

PALO

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palo quote: i can also point ot incidents of people lawfully carrying concealed who have committed murder with their lawfully carried firearms, but that doesn't vitiate the policy argument for an armed citzenry. unquote

could i have a cite?

thanks...

wabbit


sure. unlike the hysterical emotion laden "rifles are evil" peeps, i can support my positions

i will make the disclaimer that statistically speaking, people with CCW's are overwhelming prone to be law abiding and that these people are EXCEPTIONS, obviously.

but the claim i made was that people with CCW's have committed murder with their guns, so here are

http://www.csgv.org/index.php?optio...gun-permit-holders-in-2009&catid=51&Itemid=74

again, i say so what?

the point is that just because a rare CCW'er commits a murder does not mean CCW is a bad idea.

similarly, the randy weaver incident doesn't make cop snipers bad ideas either
 

Jim675

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Besides, just think of the good they do. I'm sure we can all rattle off dozens of times that pre-positioned police snipers have successfully defended a public event. Obviously then it is well worth the many millons of dollars in training and hardware we're providing them.
 

marshaul

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the govt. has both authority and responsibility. and again when you can provide a rational argument for why it's a BAD idea for snipers at the super bowl, get back to me.

It's a bad idea because it's a walking -- or sitting, as the case may be -- gun safety violation (let's not even pretend that thing doesn't get pointed at people. I've seen this sort of sniper do just that before).

It's a bad idea because of the unrealistic expectations of government capability it encourages in the minds of the people.

It's a bad idea because it's furtherance of the insidious tendency of government to spend too much money trying to do too much in too many places at once, and of the willingness of the people to condone and expect such behavior.

It's a bad idea because it's furtherance of the regularization of police use of military tactics, equipment, mindset, and ideology (don't even try to deny this one, Mr. Super-Bowl-is-Warfare), which is itself a bad idea because the police become equivalent to a standing army, and standing armies are dangerous to liberty in times of peace.

It's a bad idea because the tactic is unrealistic, impractical (get real), and unnecessary, and security theater at the expense of actual individual security is itself a bad idea (see 9/11).

It's a bad idea because it's a known quantity, a needlessly expensive and principle form of security, and yet one which only addresses a ridiculously tiny (and implausibly action-filmic) subset of the threat model.

It's a bad idea because as long as the people rely on government to maintain a monopoly on security (or even provide most of it), safety suffers due to government inefficacy, and the people remain complacent in accepting the inexorable exchange of liberty for "security".



there is no apologia here. i am as fierce a critic of police misconduct as anybody.

I'll take your word for it.

and cops are citizens too. it is fallacious to set up a false dichotomy of citizens and cops. cops are citizens too
It is fallacious to imply that the police officer's status as a citizen enables in him the same claim to right against conditions of employment that he or any other citizen deserves against criminal prosecution by government.

A person has a right to carry a firearm. But a person also has (and by extension, the people have) the right to require employees not do so on the job as a condition of employment. Obviously, the people can demand as much of their government.

There is no "false dichotomy" between employees and non-employees of the state when the issue at hand is employment by the state and any conditions it may entail.

and fortunately, most intelligent rational citizens have no problem with snipers at the super bowl.
"Most intelligent rational citizens" watch the news on TV. :rolleyes:
 
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.40S&W

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No one is saying that they are new. People are questioning the need and increasing regularity of their deployment.

I never said anyone said that. I just think it's funny how wound up some people are getting about this.
 

Gil223

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but the claim i made was that people with CCW's have committed murder with their guns, so here are

Six out of 6,000,000... looks like a situation where the odds really are 1:1,000,000! No program or process devised by human beings is flawless, but most people would accept 1:1,000,000 as an acceptable failure rate. Our school systems should do so well! Pax...
 

PALO

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Besides, just think of the good they do. I'm sure we can all rattle off dozens of times that pre-positioned police snipers have successfully defended a public event. Obviously then it is well worth the many millons of dollars in training and hardware we're providing them.

that's largely irrelevant, but generally speaking, newspapers don't write reports when threats are quelled. often, they don't even know about them

if you are a dupe of the media, you fall prey to selection bias

regardless, the point is that one balances the drawbacks of police snipers with the benefits. nobody has presented one drawback, except for emotion laden screeds about not liking cops with rifles or it making them FEEL uncomfortable
 

marshaul

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similarly, the randy weaver incident doesn't make cop snipers bad ideas either

Perhaps not, but what would? Maybe it would be sending cop snipers to places filled with innocent women and children, inadequate target clearance, extremely and unsafely limited shooting lines of sight, guaranteed humans for backstops, no history of events necessitating a sniper, and no plausible future need for one? Do you think that might do it?

Like, maybe if we sent them to football games?
 

PALO

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Perhaps not, but what would? Maybe it would be sending cop snipers to places filled with innocent women and children, inadequate target clearance, extremely and unsafely limited shooting lines of sight, guaranteed humans for backstops, no history of events necessitating a sniper, and no plausible future need for one? Do you think that might do it?

Like, maybe if we sent them to football games?

ah yes, INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN

again, just amazing the irony

reading these arguments against cop snipers, are the EXACT same kind of appeal to emotion, and now it's "think of the innocent women and children" that anti-gunners make against OUR carrying firearms.

truly ironic
thanks for the lulz
 

PALO

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Because they said so.

As for this "argument of the antis" crap. You know what else they like to argue? That it's better to be safe than sorry.

again, based on what evidence is it SAFER not to have snipers vs. having snipers?

so far all i have seen is emotion laden screeds, and speculation based on not the slightest bit of empirical data or rational thought processes.

it all comes down to either reflexive dislike/fear/paranoia of cops and then transferring that to the concept of cops having RIFLES OH NOEZZZ.

i recall a certain assault weapons ban that was based on similar logic and fear and purely based on APPEARANCE.
 

georg jetson

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again, based on what evidence is it SAFER not to have snipers vs. having snipers?

so far all i have seen is emotion laden screeds, and speculation based on not the slightest bit of empirical data or rational thought processes.

it all comes down to either reflexive dislike/fear/paranoia of cops and then transferring that to the concept of cops having RIFLES OH NOEZZZ.

i recall a certain assault weapons ban that was based on similar logic and fear and purely based on APPEARANCE.

You have trouble with LONG posts that are very clear so perhaps short and sweet is better.

We the people must ALWAYS be suspect of the intentions of our servants. We don't want/need/allow you to point guns at us because the government THINKS it needs to. Don't make us point back at you.
 
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marshaul

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ah yes, INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN

again, just amazing the irony

reading these arguments against cop snipers, are the EXACT same kind of appeal to emotion, and now it's "think of the innocent women and children" that anti-gunners make against OUR carrying firearms.

truly ironic
thanks for the lulz

I gave you all that, and that's the best you can do? Talk about lulz.

Innocent women and children was a reference to Ruby Ridge. The circumstance was transmuted to the topic at hand. Are you really that dense?

The innocence, gender, or age of those present is not at issue. At issue is the virtual impossibility of making practical use out of a sniper when one considers A: the extreme implausibility of an event where a sniper would be necessary (or even useful) and B: that, even were such an event could occur, it wouldn't be safe to shoot, as the risk of hitting bystanders is immense (hence, the Ruby Ridge reference).

Do you think you're the first person to come here spouting straw men arguments and misidentifying logical fallacies, and then declaring "lulz"? No, this forum has eating many trolls alive. And better ones, to boot. The best part is, we leave the mangled remains of their efforts lying around to be laughed at into perpetuity.

Keep up the good work.
 
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PALO

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"You have trouble with LONG posts that are very clear so perhaps short and sweet is better.

We the people must ALWAYS be suspect of the intentions of our servants. We don't want/need/allow you to point guns at us because the government THINKS it needs to. Don't make us point back at you"

we are all the people. and we are all the govt. if you need a lesson in civics, i can help you out, but you are not the royal 'we" and are not more a representative of THE PEOPLE than i am

i am very suspect of the intentions of our servants. i've had guns pointed at me by govt. servants and by criminals (spare me the mutual exclusivity jokes). it sucks. heck, being shot at sucks too.

that aside, if your primary concern is that you believe snipers will be pointing gunz at you , you may be interested to know that many snipers work with seperate scopes and/or spotters with scopes. i have no idea if these police snipers are scanning with the scope ON their rifle, or a seperate one.

do you? i suggest you don't, because none of the objections to cops with rifles oh noes in this thread have come from a position of educated concern.

but i have hope. it's the thing with feathers, after all

so, if your objection is your belief that police snipers will be pointing their rifles at people without due cause, why not RESEARCH that and see if it's ACTUALLY the case before making much ado about ... what is apparently... nothing
 
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