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I would like to know why police slap you with DC when you OC in public?

rpyne

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
1,072
Location
Provo, Utah, USA
This is clearly a violation of your Civil Rights. I don't have them handy, but there are numerous court cases to back you up. Civil Rights cases are investigated by the FBI. Call your local FBI office and file a complaint against the officers and their department.
 

OldCurlyWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
908
Location
Oklahoma
IANAL, but...

If you were legally carrying, I'm not so sure that the police can use DC to circumvent another law that you were complying with. I'd not only fight the ticket, but I would sue the officers, the police department, and the city for harassment (because that's what a DC charge is when they are pissed off when they figure out that you're not breaking any other law).

Also go to the local DA and file criminal charges of filing a false report against the officer who signed the citation and his immediate superior who was present and either gave him permission or ordered him to issue the citation.
 
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eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,525
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Also go to the local DA and file criminal charges of filing a false report against the officer who signed the citation and his immediate superior who was present and either gave him permission or ordered him to issue the citation.

Considering it is the DA in Birmingham is the one who had pressed the DC charges against the July 4th carriers, he is a poor place to go for relief.
 

OldCurlyWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
908
Location
Oklahoma
Considering it is the DA in Birmingham is the one who had pressed the DC charges against the July 4th carriers, he is a poor place to go for relief.


Then go to the AG and start there. If that doesn't work go to the US attorney's office. Of course with Holder in the US AG's office that is probably an exercise in futility. Of course at one time you could hire an attorney and prosecute them yourself. Wouldn't that be a kick? Expensive though.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,525
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Over the years, our AGs have released several opinions stating unequivocally that OC is lawful in Alabama and that localities may not make it illegal. ALOC is seeking a statement from the AG that a DC charge may not be made based solely on OC.

Unfortunately, we have a lame-duck AG, so we are contacting the AG candidates for their stances on such use of DC charges.

In the specific case of the July 4th Carriers, charges against one have been dropped. The DA is proceeding against the other. The case will be allowed to run its course. At that time, the July 4th Carriers will decide how to proceed.

Of course, they are not saying exactly what they will do, but I suspect that a civil lawsuit is in the works. Hopefully, such a civil suit would result in significant enough monetary damages as to make other PDs and DAs think twice before the do what we hope the court will specifically say that they should not: charging folks with DC for the simple (and lawful) act of OC.

The issue is actively being worked in Alabama.
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,385
Location
in front of my computer, WI
Similar things have happened several times to people here in WI. Most recently, the Madison 5 (in Sept.) and myself (04JUL).

Go to the legal section of http://www.wisconsincarry.org/default.html#
Under the legal link (upper right), all 3 of Brookfield, Madison, & GFSZ complaints have the contact info for John Monroe, an attorney out of GA who has even argued before SCOTUS on gun-rights issues. He "signs" on the last page.

He might take your case on contingency, or maybe there's a state OC group that could front the fees (that's what Wisconsin Carry does for the cases it supports). Sometimes he'll offer reduced fees to OCers, then when the case is won & includes coverage of his fees, he bills the city for his usual rate.

He's handling the civil rights suit for what Brookfield did to me, and will probably also take the civil rights cases of the Madison 5 once their DC citations are done away with. (In WI, our AG issued a memo saying that OC is not DC. The police continue to ignore it, and the Constitutions. More money for us.)


PS:
He'll be paid to show up in court (if it's not dismissed before even going to court), he'll sit and read the paper until the case is called, and he'll give testimony. After that, when the case is dismissed and you've been inconvenienced and lost time and wages, he'll cash his paycheck for the time he spent in court and go home to eat dinner.
A tactic I learned about when fighting traffic tickets... Call & find out when the officer has her/his day(s) off. They're public servants, it's public information. Then tell the court that's the day(s) you can appear. Yeah, s/he'll get paid, but has to come in on what's supposed to be a day off. Annoys them.
 
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Jonathon Sometimes

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
214
Location
Birmingham, Alabama, USA
I was arrested on July 4th for OC.

I am one of the two out of Birmingham, and let me assure all of you that I will not only fight this DC charge tooth and nail, but will make the BPD, the DA's office, Project ICE who stole my weapons, and the City of Birmingham itself pay a steep price for their stupidity.

Federal Civil Rights violations lawsuits are in the works, as well as criminal charges, if I have to file them myself.

What makes these people think that OC'ers who by their very NATURE are intelligent, brave, and strong willed will lay down and submit to any petty charges thrown at them? It merely serves to strengthen my resolve.

My court date is set for March 9th. I can't wait. Thank you all for your thoughts and support.
 

edmondsonpr

New member
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
1
Location
Virginia
I am one of the two out of Birmingham, and let me assure all of you that I will not only fight this DC charge tooth and nail, but will make the BPD, the DA's office, Project ICE who stole my weapons, and the City of Birmingham itself pay a steep price for their stupidity.

Federal Civil Rights violations lawsuits are in the works, as well as criminal charges, if I have to file them myself.

What makes these people think that OC'ers who by their very NATURE are intelligent, brave, and strong willed will lay down and submit to any petty charges thrown at them? It merely serves to strengthen my resolve.

My court date is set for March 9th. I can't wait. Thank you all for your thoughts and support.
Good for you Jonathon! Norfolk or was it Hampton Virginia that the police did the exact same thing. The wronged person (it's also LEGAL to OC in VA) sued the police department for $10K due to loss of work and hassle etc.--He won! This happened last year I believe. Kick A$$!
 

aadvark

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
1,600
Location
, ,
There are Police Departments that will try to enforce Disorderly Conduct or Reckless Conduct Laws as against Open Carry for, primarily, two differing reasons, among them: 1. Poor Training OR 2. Opinionated Politics concerning Open Carry.
In most States, Open Carry has Legal Precedent AND Legal Standing, BUT People often times rely on thier Personnal Opinions on things instead of coming to grasp The Reality of the way things are.
In short..., if someones Opinion of Open Carry is not favorable to its Pratice, they will automatically assume the Conduct wrong instead of adhereing to The Law concernig the Topic-matter.
To put it another way..., if someone does not agree with you on something, then, typically, they will assume that your Opinion or Viewpoint is Wrong, and they will uphold theirs as Right.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
There are Police Departments that will try to enforce Disorderly Conduct or Reckless Conduct Laws as against Open Carry for, primarily, two differing reasons, among them: 1. Poor Training OR 2. Opinionated Politics concerning Open Carry.
In most States, Open Carry has Legal Precedent AND Legal Standing, BUT People often times rely on thier Personnal Opinions on things instead of coming to grasp The Reality of the way things are.
In short..., if someones Opinion of Open Carry is not favorable to its Pratice, they will automatically assume the Conduct wrong instead of adhereing to The Law concernig the Topic-matter.
To put it another way..., if someone does not agree with you on something, then, typically, they will assume that your Opinion or Viewpoint is Wrong, and they will uphold theirs as Right.

Well said, Aadvark. It's for the reasons you stated above that I began posting on Officer.com. When I first began, there were a lot of extremists who posted against me, thinking (or at least saying) that all LEO felt the way they did. As time went on, however, the other LEOs came forward and the extremists learned not only they were in the minority, but also the illegality of busting someone for DC simply because they were engaged in lawful open carry.

And I like that! (winning)
 

DON`T TREAD ON ME

Regular Member
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
1,233
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Nick there is a lot of truth on this thread, And an Attorney can be valuable, the trick is to line them up prior to doing your activism, I to have had a few encounters, and learned a lesson or two. My advice is not for everyone because it is more the do it yourself kit. Just like car maintenence, not everyone wants to change their oil. The up side to do it your self is. It is done how you want.

I stumbled into a small group in Vegas called "Guerrilla Lawfare" and they oooze activism, they have given me some tips that your lawyer will overlook, as well as a way to empower you so that instead of getting something dismissed, you make a difference.

First thing get a copy of your city's police manual if possible, It will have the needed protocol for filing internal affairs complaints. Your state should have a whole section of law dealing with public records, read it. Next carry a digital recorder at all times. If you have an encounter and then are released with no cite, get an event # (every time) also get all officers badge #'s and the shift supervisors name and "contact" (not message) phone # (I say I want the # that you are going to call when you leave here) Most departments operate on a CAD system, obtain your CAD (computer aided dispatch)

since you got a Cite. (congratulations) you are in a good spot to make a difference for OC in your community, look at the Cite and see what the name of the court is. Next google that court and pull up the site, look for "Rules of Court" if you do not see it google the court name + rules of court. Find out if your Judge is a "real" judge, and not a commisioner etc. If you get a referee or whatever they call it, ask for a real judge. If any of this is interesting you on a way for you to make a difference, get a hold of the boys at www.guerrillalawfare.com or P.M. me. Their website is new as they just started to go all 48 states, but they will spend time giving you advice, and they have never charged me anything. Good luck with your ticket, and you make me proud.

Oh yeah next time your stopped and detained, make sure your recorder hears you mention that you were not DC, you were simply redressing Government grievences peacefuly.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
I thought your post was outstanding. If I ever move back to Las Vegas, I'll be sure to look you up!

Oh yeah next time your stopped and detained, make sure your recorder hears you mention that you were not DC, you were simply redressing Government grievences peacefuly.

I would like to make a note of this, however, as "redressing Government grievance" requires a grievance. OC is not a redress of anything. It's a lawful activity in Deleware:

"Delaware is an open carry state. Those doing so should be aware that any local ordinances that were in effect at the time that preemption was passed (July 4, 1985) are still in effect and are NOT preempted." - Source

When the law enforcement officer slapped you with a disorderly conduct charge as you were peacably going about your law-abiding activity, they created a grievance which could then be redressed.

Thus, I would change your recommendation to: "The next time you're stopped and detained, make sure your recorder hears you state you are peacably engaged in a lawful activity."

I am an OC rookie and I have been slapped with a disorderly conduct ticket for carrying my firearm properly holstered in public. I don't understand why this happened I follow all the laws in my state(DE)when it comes to open carry. Has this happened to anyone before in DE?

First, definately get a lawyer. Try SuperLawyers.com. There's no additional charge; they're simply recognized by clients and their peers as among the best. Select from categories such as "criminal defense" or "civil rights/first amendment." If you find a lawyer listed in both categories, that's a bonus.

However, you might also contact the ACLU, as your civil rights were definately downtrodden, and it's the sort of case behind which they enjoy throwing your weight. More on the civil rights aspect in a minute.

In the meantime, let's take a look at what a disorderly conduct charge actually means:

Merriam-Webster: "a petty offense chiefly against public order and decency that falls short of an indictable misdemeanor"

The "public order and decency" category is both fairly broad and easily abused by law enforcement.

Wikipedia: "...disorderly conduct statutes give police officers and other authorities fairly broad discretion to arrest people whose activities they find undesirable for a wide variety of reasons." - Source

In short, it sucks, but the good news is that most courts realize it sucks to be slapped with a DC charge when one is engaged in lawful activity. Case in point. Or, as Wikipedia puts it: "The courts confronted with cases stemming from these arrests have from time to time had occasion to restrict the broad and vague definitions of the statute to make certain that freedom of speech and assembly and other forms of protected expression under the First Amendment were not affected."

That goes for the Second Amendment, as well, as both the First and the Second were created together, and both are issues involving civil rights.

Now, let's examine Delaware Code - Section 1301: DISORDERLY CONDUCT; UNCLASSIFIED MISDEMEANOR:

A person is guilty of disorderly conduct when:

(1) The person intentionally causes public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm to any other person, or creates a risk thereof by:

a. Engaging in fighting or in violent, tumultuous or threatening behavior; or

b. Making an unreasonable noise or an offensively coarse utterance, gesture or display, or addressing abusive language to any person present; or

c. Disturbing any lawful assembly or meeting of persons without lawful authority; or

d. Obstructing vehicular or pedestrian traffic; or

e. Congregating with other persons in a public place and refusing to comply with a lawful order of the police to disperse; or

f. Creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition which serves no legitimate purpose; or

g. Congregating with other persons in a public place while wearing masks, hoods or other garments rendering their faces unrecognizable, for the purpose of and in a manner likely to imminently subject any person to the deprivation of any rights, privileges or immunities secured by the Constitution or laws of the United States of America.

(2) The person engages with at least 1 other person in a course of disorderly conduct as defined in paragraph (1) of this section which is likely to cause substantial harm or serious inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, and refuses or knowingly fails to obey an order to disperse made by a peace officer to the participants.

Disorderly conduct is an unclassified misdemeanor.

That's it. Let's examine it in detail, and refute why OC is not DC (I'm using the quote function, as it's easier to keep things separate):

A person is guilty of disorderly conduct when:

(1) The person intentionally causes public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm to any other person, or creates a risk thereof by:

Your OC may have caused someone, including the officer, alarm.

The $10,000 question is: Did he require you to turn over your firearm, or after writing the ticket, did he let you walk away with your firearm?

But the $50,000 question is does it meet any of the "by" requirements as specifically required in section (1)? Let's examine each one as they pertain to the peacably OC of a firearm in a state where OC is legal:

a. Engaging in fighting or in violent, tumultuous or threatening behavior; or

Absolutely not. The cop might argue "threatening behavior," but when taken in the context of item a., it's not at all of the same class. Item a.'s "threatening behavior" would include such things as advancing towards someone with a glare in your eye and your fists raised, ready for battle. Walking down the sidewalk while legally OCing is not "threatening behavior."

quote]b. Making an unreasonable noise or an offensively coarse utterance, gesture or display, or addressing abusive language to any person present; or [/quote]

Thise include such things as profanity, telling people to ef-off, giving them the bird, or the older version using one's entire forearm. They do not include the peacably legal open carry of a firearm.

c. Disturbing any lawful assembly or meeting of persons without lawful authority; or

You weren't disturbing a lawful assembly or meeting of persons. If such a meeting or assembly of persons was disturbed solely by your legal OC, then you had lawful authority from DE state law to legally OC. If ancillary to that they were disturbed, then you've met the "with lawful authority" defense of this item.

d. Obstructing vehicular or pedestrian traffic; or

Nope.

e. Congregating with other persons in a public place and refusing to comply with a lawful order of the police to disperse; or

Nope.

f. Creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition which serves no legitimate purpose; or

Nope, for both OC and the RKBA have been recognized by DE law as serving a legitimate purpose (self-defense).

g. Congregating with other persons in a public place while wearing masks, hoods or other garments rendering their faces unrecognizable, for the purpose of and in a manner likely to imminently subject any person to the deprivation of any rights, privileges or immunities secured by the Constitution or laws of the United States of America.

Nope.

(2) The person engages with at least 1 other person in a course of disorderly conduct as defined in paragraph (1) of this section which is likely to cause substantial harm or serious inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, and refuses or knowingly fails to obey an order to disperse made by a peace officer to the participants.

Were you alone? If so, then nope.

Disorderly conduct is an unclassified misdemeanor.

So, the answer is no on all accounts. This is easily defensible in court. Get a lawyer and defeat it.

Have the lawyer ask the judge for compensation of reasonable attorneys' fees from the officer's Police Department, based on the fact that law-abiding citizens shouldn't be deprived of their hard-earned dollars because those charged with the responsibility of enforcing the law aren't responsible enough to actually know the law. Add that such compensation will be an appropriate punative measure towards the department of sufficient caliber to encourage them to provide better training for their officers.
 
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