• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Has anyone been pushed to change religions while in the military

palerider116

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
572
Location
Unknown
Funny how it's a Theory, which means it passed the hypothesis stage with gold stars. However, your view actually does fit the definition of a hypothesis. You want to spout your ideas as facts, then dismiss facts as ideas. No wonder this country is so upside down.

Well Mr. Bill Nye the science guy, your innate morality is upside down.

You asserted man is inherently moral by natural means of evolution. You argue for some universal standard that evolved over time and is hard wired into the human brain. How did this standard even get programmed in the mind and what determined certain things to be moral?

We must have a society of improperly wired people.

I suppose kids are born with an innate belief in Santa Claus. Evolution should have programmed that by now.

I stated mankind is amoral until taught some system of belief. A person can be then defined as moral or immoral according to that system or by other systems.

Morality is not a universal standard. Until you can prove it to be a law of nature, then do not push this innate morality nonsense.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,193
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
You asserted man is inherently moral by natural means of evolution. You argue for some universal standard that evolved over time and is hard wired into the human brain. How did this standard even get programmed in the mind and what determined certain things to be moral?

Man has evolved to find discomfort in seeing members of his own tribe aggressed against. This has obvious evolutionary benefits at the individual and species level. The drive to prevent harm to one's family and friends is instinctive.

Go ahead. Tell me it's not. Tell me you'd have to make a conscious application of experience-based decision-making before deciding to (say) save your son's life.

Morality is not a universal standard. Until you can prove it to be a law of nature, then do not push this innate morality nonsense.

Until you can prove morality to be a product of nurture, then do not push this learned/taught morality nonsense.

I win.
 
Last edited:

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,229
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
I served for about thirty five years in the Military (Navy, Army) and never, I say again, Never saw forced religion. I did see forced football on a drill weekend with the Arkansas Nat'l Guard.
When I was assigned to an Engineer unit in Vicksburg MS we had a Chaplain(Col) assigned to the unit. Being Vicksburg, he was a Southern Baptist. He put on a rousing, generic, service. One day we had a "meet your neighbors" event where a rep from each religion with personnel in the unit set up an "information table". This allowed other, interested Soldiers to share views on their free time that day. Most of the major religions were represented, to include Atheists and Pagans. It worked out very well and did not interfere with Unit Operations that day. I was a lay leader in the unit, sanctioned by Chaplain and Command.
 

Sorcice

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Messages
381
Location
Madison, WI
Morality is a perspective more than a set standard of rules. The only thing that separates us from other species is being self-aware and having an evolved communication. The primal side is still there however dormant. By perspective I mean we look outside ourselves for what society deems ok and that becomes the "morality" we follow. It's mutually beneficial to live amoung others vs alone.

Morality is objective(not subjective) and varies region to region based on social acceptance. While many civilized areas vary minimally there are some areas where extreme differences take place(though it is often from theological differences). Take the difference between any US area vs a place like Papua New Guinea( http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/feb/8/suspected-witch-bound-tortured-burned-alive-papua-/ ) where people are still burned at the stake for "whichcraft".

What I'm getting at is based on where you are the moral standard differs. We all agree to live near one another for societal gains. In doing so we have learned to protect those around us in our immediate family/tribe and sometimes larger groups. Those who go against the common good are dealt with. Here in the US that may mean jail time. In other areas of the world it could mean nothing or it could mean death.
 
Last edited:

Tess

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2006
Messages
3,835
Location
Alexandria, Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
As both an active duty member and later a federal civilian and then a defense contractor, I will note that I frequently saw e-mail tag lines touting a particular belief on official e-mails. When the person sending those sits in your chain of command, it tends to make individuals feel uncomfortable with the notion of challenging it. Though my units officially had policies against political or religious tag lines, I never saw those policies enforced.
 

sraacke

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,216
Location
Saint Gabriel, Louisiana, USA
I spent 4 years in the Army with a set of dog tags which said ATHEIST on the line for religious affiliation. The guy stamping them out in Basic Training at Fort Knox asked me for my religion and I told him, "none. I'm Atheist." and he shrugged, put it on and when he was done and said, "Here you go. Next." I looked thinking he would have put "NONE" but I saw ATHEIST and thought "Oh well". In the 4 years I was in it was never an issue.
 

ADobbs1989

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
465
Location
Alabama
Well Mr. Bill Nye the science guy, your innate morality is upside down.

You asserted man is inherently moral by natural means of evolution. You argue for some universal standard that evolved over time and is hard wired into the human brain. How did this standard even get programmed in the mind and what determined certain things to be moral?

We must have a society of improperly wired people.

I suppose kids are born with an innate belief in Santa Claus. Evolution should have programmed that by now.

I stated mankind is amoral until taught some system of belief. A person can be then defined as moral or immoral according to that system or by other systems.

Morality is not a universal standard. Until you can prove it to be a law of nature, then do not push this innate morality nonsense.

Is this supposed to be Satire? The idea of Santa, Saint Nicholas, Father Christmas, etc. has only been around for like 500 years, even if evolution went about implanting ridiculous beliefs into newborns it would likely take 10's or 100's of thousands of years. How do you figure we live in a society of improperly wired people? Once again don't confuse being moral with having specific values, or following laws. MOST people in this world are moral, when it comes to true morality. There are always a small percentage that are not, but never are these people in the majority, or even a large minority. Even children who lacked any kind of human interaction for years like the child a few decades ago in California have an innate sense of morality, yet she was not taught ANYTHING. Couldn't speak at all. Plenty of REAL scientists HAVE proven that humanity as a whole shares the same sense of morality regardless of any external factors. I for one prefer to listen to the people with the facts, and not keyboard jockeys who dismiss any and all scientific evidence because it doesn't fit within their own hypothesis.
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,826
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Apparently everybody who has their knickers in a twist (clockwise or counter-clockwise) has forgotten that the First Amendment protects us from religion - in the sense of a state-sanctioned religion. It gives us the freedom to choose a religion, or no religion, without consequence from the state.....

It has been interpreted that way, but the Amendment says in part, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." That was strictly an injunction against Congress and thereby a national religion. At the founding of the Colonies more than one was founded on religious principles and Massachusetts still had an official state religion 50 years after the 1878 signing of the Constitution.

It wasn't until the "Establishment Clause" (Everson v. Board of Education) that the First Amendment was "incorporated" and expanded to apply to the individual States. Without benefit of Congress, Justice Hugo Black opined that the "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church.
.... which for better or worse, is Definitely NOT what the writers of the Constitution intended.


Back on track, the only push I ever got in the military was the advice that Mormons received increased household baggage allowance because they were supposed to keep a year's supply of food on hand for each family member. I never had a big enough family to even consider having to worry about that.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,525
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
For my first three years in the Air Force, I worked closely with chaplains as a chapel manager. I don't know if this has changed in thirty years, but their hands were absolutely tied as far as proselytizing goes--and not one of them, to my knowledge, came even close to that line, let alone stepped over it.

To non-believers, they were available as counsellors. To believers, they were pastors. On Sunday (or Saturday), they were ministers. At all times, they were non-combatant airmen.
 

david.ross

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
1,241
Location
Pittsburgh, PA, USA
The scientific community would disagree with you. All humans share an innate sense of morality regardless of their religion, race, place of birth, or upbringing. It's part of evolution.

Yet religion DOES encourage, sometimes forcing, a social standard of morality.

Humans are naturally polygynous, religion encourages and some laws(which are unenforceable) dictate society doesn't sleep with multiple mates under the same roof and restricts "marriage/civil unions/inter-personal contracts."

This isn't the first example of religion forcing morals and social rules unto others, topics range from same sex "marriage"/unions to abortion.

These are topics/beliefs/etc often forced unto children as they grow up, encouraging them to believe in a different social society when compared to others like in Europe. People in the US are very anti-sex topics in public, people in the UK make sexual jokes all the time. Though the whole Christian views of newer generations are degrading, (jesting) thank God.

I'm an atheist, I've never forced my views on others. I also don't care about being discreet regarding hurting feelings of others by talking about scientific topics, as to which I've actually been threatened with physical violence by conversing with a Christian because I started talking about astronomy. He believed all scientific research to be offensive and to be against God. note: the person was rural and white.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,453
Location
White Oak Plantation
I do not hold the UK as a example of a advanced society, industrialized to be sure, advanced, no. The USA is a advanced society, the only advanced society in my view, based on the fact that we have a constitution that protects natural rights. Some her may disagree with my assessment. The absence of proselytizing in the military is evidence to me, based on my experience, that at least the fedgov (military) has got one thing right as far as the constitution is concerned. Unfortunately it seems that some of our felow citizens seek to root out the religious and keep a watchful eye on them.
 

ADobbs1989

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
465
Location
Alabama
Yet religion DOES encourage, sometimes forcing, a social standard of morality.

Humans are naturally polygynous, religion encourages and some laws(which are unenforceable) dictate society doesn't sleep with multiple mates under the same roof and restricts "marriage/civil unions/inter-personal contracts."

This isn't the first example of religion forcing morals and social rules unto others, topics range from same sex "marriage"/unions to abortion.

These are topics/beliefs/etc often forced unto children as they grow up, encouraging them to believe in a different social society when compared to others like in Europe. People in the US are very anti-sex topics in public, people in the UK make sexual jokes all the time. Though the whole Christian views of newer generations are degrading, (jesting) thank God.

I'm an atheist, I've never forced my views on others. I also don't care about being discreet regarding hurting feelings of others by talking about scientific topics, as to which I've actually been threatened with physical violence by conversing with a Christian because I started talking about astronomy. He believed all scientific research to be offensive and to be against God. note: the person was rural and white.

Once again though, these things are not morals, although they are incorrectly labeled as such. You can't be forced to be moral you are either born with it or your not. You can be taught VALUES and a way to live your life based on a set of beliefs, but neither of these determine your true morality.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,193
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Humans are naturally polygynous, religion encourages and some laws(which are unenforceable) dictate society doesn't sleep with multiple mates under the same roof and restricts "marriage/civil unions/inter-personal contracts."

lol! What a steaming pile of broccoli.

Because religion has never been used to justify polygamy in the face of overwhelming social consensus that it is unacceptable, amirite?

At its most social, religion codifies existing social normals, and/or attempts to justify enforcing them with force. At its most anti-social, religion serves as an excuse to discard existing social restrictions. It has also been used by those in power to provide a spiritual dimension of "enforcement" to their edicts. I can't, however, think of many examples of religion spontaneously imposing on a people restrictions that wouldn't have existed otherwise.

And anyway, the things you mention are all values, not morals – and rather bad ones at that.
 

Lurchiron

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
1,011
Location
Shawano,WI.
Yet religion DOES encourage, sometimes forcing, a social standard of morality.

Humans are naturally polygynous, religion encourages and some laws(which are unenforceable) dictate society doesn't sleep with multiple mates under the same roof and restricts "marriage/civil unions/inter-personal contracts."

This isn't the first example of religion forcing morals and social rules unto others, topics range from same sex "marriage"/unions to abortion.

These are topics/beliefs/etc often forced unto children as they grow up, encouraging them to believe in a different social society when compared to others like in Europe. People in the US are very anti-sex topics in public, people in the UK make sexual jokes all the time. Though the whole Christian views of newer generations are degrading, (jesting) thank God.

I'm an atheist, I've never forced my views on others. I also don't care about being discreet regarding hurting feelings of others by talking about scientific topics, as to which I've actually been threatened with physical violence by conversing with a Christian because I started talking about astronomy. He believed all scientific research to be offensive and to be against God. note: the person was rural and white.



Looks like someone mistook their butt-plug for a pacifier again...I don't care who ya are; betcha that leaves a bad taste in your mouth!
Git-R-Done.jpg Rainbows suck; I bet your teams do also...:shocker:
 
Last edited:

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
Hey. Whats with this BS sig line?

Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists

How about gay supremacists? Are they different that any other bigoted POS supremacists? I don't know if I'm just realizing what this a$$ has as a sig line, but you can take this line and shove it up your gay supremacist a$$.
 
Last edited:

ADobbs1989

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
465
Location
Alabama
Hey. Whats with this BS sig line?



How about gay supremacists? Are they different that any other bigoted POS supremacists? I don't know if I'm just realizing what this a$$ has as a sig line, but you can take this line and shove it up your gay supremacist a$$.

WTF is a "gay supremacist"? I know they say "Gay and Proud", but I don't remember "Gay and better than you are because I'm gay." Is this akin to saying that Christians are being persecuted? As in it's completely made up?
 
Top